The Debt.

Where fellow sufferers gather to share the pain, longing and unrequited transfer requests that make being a Wanderer what it is...

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Athers
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Re: The Debt.

Post by Athers » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:44 pm

We have to publish agents fees
Championship

Blackburn £3,538,034

Cardiff £1,836,193

Wolves £1,676,300

Crystal Palace £1,345,913

Leeds £1,283,234

Nottingham Forest £1,208,850

Hull £929,535

Brighton £869,988

Bolton £611,900

Ipswich £551,878

Watford £546,250

Derby £533,081

Burnley £531,487

Sheffield Wednesday £487,800

Bristol City £467,115

Huddersfield £459,670

Leicester £407,300

Middlesbrough £365,947

Millwall £233,400

Charlton £227,170

Birmingham £203,100

Barnsley £169,360

Peterborough £83,800

Blackpool £0

Total £18,567,305
Isn't so much really I suppose, relative to operation
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Lord Kangana
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Re: The Debt.

Post by Lord Kangana » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:49 pm

Worthy4England wrote:Interesting that the slashing of the wage bill, under the previous manager, which was often cited for the plight he was in, didn't actually occur. But seems to be occurring now.

This also shows why some of the alleged Premiership level squad needed moving on.
erm, have you not seen the graph at the bottom, where the wage bill starts decreasing from 2011 onwards? I know this is going to be a difficult discussion, but I'm sure you're fully aware that contracts given out under one manager still have to be honoured under another. Its very clear from that graph that economies were already being planned upon and acted upon in order for there to be a drop during the previous managers reign. Otherwise, there would have been a lag, and the amount would only have started dropping this year or next. Or am I to believe that people really think you can just sack football players on the spot?
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Re: The Debt.

Post by ChrisC » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:50 pm

Could we even get back on track with promotion? Scary really when that is the ultimate goal.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Athers » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:55 pm

I think the uneasy question of what happens with Mr Davies' estate on his death is the one thing none of us know the answer to, yet is the only factor in determining the future of this debt mountain.

The scary thing is it's gone from c£80m on revenue of c£50m to £160m on revenue of £30m very quickly, but good news it's now interest free, that £7m would have proven crippling.
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Re: The Debt.

Post by Relentless09 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:56 pm

A clear out in January or Summer is certain to happen, the club can't continue this way.

Been talked about for the past couple of years but with a clear out and more costs cut to come, we really need to bring youth players into the first team. Some say they aren't ready for the step up to this level but judging by some of the performances of the first team players, they can't be any worse and at least they should show some determination. Financial benefit of playing young players is that their wages won't be as large as some of the dead wood we have now.

Unfortunately this would mean a possible decline in results unless they become good players but eventually we would have to sell our better players in order to keep our finances stable. The thought of becoming a selling club and losing our best players is hard to take but the stability of the club is more important than short term success.

Or Eddie Davies could just go mad with investment and try to get us promoted this season :D

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Whookam » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:02 pm

Relentless09 wrote:A clear out in January or Summer is certain to happen, the club can't continue this way.

Been talked about for the past couple of years but with a clear out and more costs cut to come, we really need to bring youth players into the first team. Some say they aren't ready for the step up to this level but judging by some of the performances of the first team players, they can't be any worse and at least they should show some determination. Financial benefit of playing young players is that their wages won't be as large as some of the dead wood we have now.

Unfortunately this would mean a possible decline in results unless they become good players but eventually we would have to sell our better players in order to keep our finances stable. The thought of becoming a selling club and losing our best players is hard to take but the stability of the club is more important than short term success.

Or Eddie Davies could just go mad with investment and try to get us promoted this season :D
Your suggestion would lead to an almost certain decline in results and a dramatic one at that. Have a look at our youth squad from 2009, how many of them are playing professional football? That's the problem with youth development, so few ever actually make it.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by LeverEnd » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:09 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:My first thought were:

I think you'd be right. There's practically no way of clearing such a huge debt in any easy way.

And it would piss me off less if I didn't have Gartside's hubristic "we've cracked this staying in the Premier League malarky" statement a couple of years back.

Nobody with solely the clubs interests at heart would allow our position to become so parlous, unless they were prepared to just write the whole lot off.

Then my second thought was:

Next Leeds or Portsmouth.
Just as well the club didn't show the 'ambition' that Big Sam demanded really.
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Re: The Debt.

Post by Lord Kangana » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:10 pm

Its interesting that the steepest rise in wages comes just after his departure though, isn't it?
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Re: The Debt.

Post by LeverEnd » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:19 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:Its interesting that the steepest rise in wages comes just after his departure though, isn't it?
Yes, I think they were trying to prove him wrong after PG's booze fuelled rant on TV. Maybe they realised that when you lose a manager of that quality you have to make up for the shortfall in skills somehow.
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ROVERS F.C.
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Re: The Debt.

Post by ROVERS F.C. » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:22 pm

The financial future does'nt look good for either of our two.Dropping out of the Premier gravy train was the worse case scenario for two similar town clubs such as ours...bleak outlook indeed.
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Re: The Debt.

Post by officer_dibble » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:29 pm

Hows it compare to the much maligned venkys then rover?

Looks like we're bollocksed to me. Look at pompey - if eddie pops his clogs we could be there!

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Re: The Debt.

Post by ROVERS F.C. » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:07 pm

Venkys have learned to keep their mouths shut...that's about all.

We are some 60 million in debt and reputedly losing 2 million a MONTH.

Go figure.
Last edited by ROVERS F.C. on Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Kangana
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Re: The Debt.

Post by Lord Kangana » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:11 pm

Interesting, after all the discussions, that Gartside claims we've invested £4m on players this year.

Who would that be? Spearing, Beckford... who else? Tireney and/or Baptiste (I thought they were free signings, or are we counting other fees incurred?) What about that young defender - Ciaran was it - did he cost a fee? I forgot Rob Hall of course, c. £400k.
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Re: The Debt.

Post by Tombwfc » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:35 pm

We had to pay for both Hayden White and Conor Wilkinson. If you go £2m for Spearing, £1m for Beckford and £1m for the kids, that seems to add up to me. No idea where the figure of £7.3m comes from though.

If we're £160m in debt, is there even any point in a fire sale at this point? We're never making that money back, so surely the best option is to just to do what other football clubs do - plough on regardless and wait for the shit to hit the fan.

It's the wage bill that I find the most eye-watering. In 2013 ours was 32.7m, which is higher than everyone but West Ham from 2012's Championship teams and higher than every single Championship team in 2011 (QPR had the highest that year, with a paltry £29.7m).

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Mar » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:57 pm

I mistakenly figured that signing players for a transfer fee would mean we spend less on wages as we're not vying with other clubs to sign up the free transfers (Okocha, Djorkaeff wages would've included the transfer fee I would've imagined). But now it seems we've spent money on transfers aswell as a high figure on wages. No wonder the club is considering getting rid of everyone at the first opportunity and no wonder the playing staff don't know whether they will be coming or going.

I don't think promotion would resolve our debt problem either. In fact I think something along the lines of getting promoted and keeping the same team would be the only way to go (which isn't a feasible survival strategy).

It seems that all concerned are heading in the wrong direction. It seems that we would spend silly money to get players of substandard quality and then see them fritter the money on silly wages.

We were told that improving the academy would bring talent through which would improve transfer fees for players leaving the club but unfortunately that hasn't really taken off. Danny Ward perhaps being the most recent notable departure. That seemed to be the reason we weren't spending money in that particular transfer window (I forget the exact year) but it was noticable that we were taking a hit on quality staff at the time.

It's not an easy job for Eddie Davies and Gartside but at the same time from the outset it seems so disorganised and in often cases disinterested (Gartside).

Hopefully Freedman will be the man to steer the ship in the right direction but its not looking likely, there's no clear year on year progression.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Lord Kangana » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:58 pm

Indeed. Further, it seems crazy that we've seemingly been allowing the debt to accrue, almost uncontrollably with a life of its own, since 2008.

And why do the losses rise significantly from 2007-2010, then we seem to get a handle on them a little (it all seems very f*cking relative when a little contains figures of £-22m and £-26m) in 2011/12 and then start careering away again this year, with a staggering (breathtaking? I don't even think there are the words...) loss of £34.5m.

Now, I absolutely know that there is a pretty savage cost-cutting exercise happening at Chez Reebok, quite apart from the football side of things, but how in the hell do you run a business in such a manner and still receive in excess of £400k in remuneration? I think its pretty superfluous to point to the wage cut Gartside himself has taken, when we're cutting back on tea bags and stationary, only to pay the man ultimately responsible for the mess a still frankly staggering sum.
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Re: The Debt.

Post by a1 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:00 pm

it'll be reet.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Athers » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:04 pm

The approach now is almost that there isn't a debt problem - £151m to Davies and it costs us nothing. Interest-free loans are classic sugar-daddy behaviour - it may as well not be there.......for now!

Converting it all to equity would be a nice little problem solver though, if Davies feels like being very generous
The financial future of Leicester City has been secured after the owner effectively wiped out the club's £103 million debt.

Chairman Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha has swapped the huge liabilities for shares in City, meaning he or his family can no longer call in what they are owed and potentially destabilise the club.

The massive debt, racked up after the club reported £52.5 million of losses in the three seasons to 2011-12, had led to concern among fans about the Foxes' long-term financial health.

It is believed the club, which has received more than £75 million in loans from Mr Srivaddhanaprabha, is now almost debt-free for the first time in at least two decades.

The process used by Thai owner Mr Srivaddhanaprabha, known as a "debt-for-equity swap", has also been used by the owners of Manchester City and Chelsea.

Financial expert and City fan Andrew Howard, of Thorpe Astley, said: "It means the club no longer has any debt, or at least very little debt such as that associated with day-to-day trading.

"The owners can't call in those loans any more."
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Re: The Debt.

Post by LeverEnd » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:07 pm

Some boffin has been analysing the figures.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25559504
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Re: The Debt.

Post by Mar » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:09 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:Indeed. Further, it seems crazy that we've seemingly been allowing the debt to accrue, almost uncontrollably with a life of its own, since 2008.

And why do the losses rise significantly from 2007-2010, then we seem to get a handle on them a little (it all seems very f*cking relative when a little contains figures of £-22m and £-26m) in 2011/12 and then start careering away again this year, with a staggering (breathtaking? I don't even think there are the words...) loss of £34.5m.

The losses from 2007 and 2010 were from the transitional period where Megson and Lee were in charge. It was seemingly a case of lets try and play attractive football and get rid of all of those who have been successful at the club (Diouf and Campo's mistreatment at the time).

Lets say that Braaten, Wilhelmsson, Elmander, Muamba, Cahill, Steinsson, etc. weren't cheap and that we really didn't see any money come off the back of them. With the exception of Cahill all of those represented poor return on investment (unfortunately for Muamba that wasn't really anything he could've done though).

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