The Debt.

Where fellow sufferers gather to share the pain, longing and unrequited transfer requests that make being a Wanderer what it is...

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gcah2006
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Re: The Debt.

Post by gcah2006 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:13 pm

I can't tell you how pleased I am the owners at my club (Leicester) went debt-to-equity and wiped everything away. It made it a lovely Christmas for us and we can look forward to a promising 2014.

I don't envy your position in the slightest.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Bruce Rioja » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:27 pm

gcah2006 wrote:I can't tell you how pleased I am the owners at my club (Leicester) went debt-to-equity and wiped everything away. It made it a lovely Christmas for us and we can look forward to a promising 2014.

I don't envy your position in the slightest.
It's ultimately the same though. And the land on which your ground stands is worth an absolute shitload.
May the bridges I burn light your way

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Re: The Debt.

Post by bwfcdan94 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:37 am

I should also point out that with the financial fair play regulations we will be unable to buy anyone from June anyway unless we sell half of our squad in January. On the bright side we are not the only one.
The above post is complete bollox/garbage/nonsense, please point this out to me at any and every occasion possible.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Zulus Thousand of em » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:55 am

gcah2006 wrote:I can't tell you how pleased I am the owners at my club (Leicester) went debt-to-equity and wiped everything away. It made it a lovely Christmas for us and we can look forward to a promising 2014.

I don't envy your position in the slightest.
You've got previous for walking away and not paying your creditors, haven't you?
God's country! God's county!
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COME ON YOU WHITES!!

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Re: The Debt.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:43 am

Well, happy new year everyone.

This news however, isn't exactly happy is it?

It is clear that we could absolutely not afford to drop from the premiership. Though we could scarcely afford to stay in it. The chilling thing is that we are going to be hit by a FFP penalty next season unless we can (by my rough calculations) reduce our outgoings by about £40M - given the reduction in income we will also suffer. This does not seem likely, which may be the biggest understatement around.

So we will likely face financial penalty or a transfer ban.

The worst thing is, that I can't see a way out, even a new rich owner wiping the debt out tomorrow (we are in fantasy world again) couldn't spend his cash to dig us out due to FFP once again kicking in. Essentially we are going to be constrained by our income (this is best case scenario assuming debt can be dealt with) and therefore roughly will have spending power to match our attendances. So if you league table average attendances, roughly that would correspond to how we'd compete. But even then many aren't saddled with our debt and loss issue.

It's a mess, and sadly one that seems almost unavoidable for mid size clubs who get relegated after an extended top flight stay. I fear that we aren't going to be seeing happy times at the Reebok for some considerable time.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:47 am

Good to see you back Insane :pissed:

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Re: The Debt.

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:01 pm

^
Likewise. Happy New Year to you mate.
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Bruce Rioja » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:02 pm

The good news is you're alive and hopefully well.
May the bridges I burn light your way

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Re: The Debt.

Post by bwfcdan94 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:08 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:Well, happy new year everyone.

This news however, isn't exactly happy is it?

It is clear that we could absolutely not afford to drop from the premiership. Though we could scarcely afford to stay in it. The chilling thing is that we are going to be hit by a FFP penalty next season unless we can (by my rough calculations) reduce our outgoings by about £40M - given the reduction in income we will also suffer. This does not seem likely, which may be the biggest understatement around.

So we will likely face financial penalty or a transfer ban.

The worst thing is, that I can't see a way out, even a new rich owner wiping the debt out tomorrow (we are in fantasy world again) couldn't spend his cash to dig us out due to FFP once again kicking in. Essentially we are going to be constrained by our income (this is best case scenario assuming debt can be dealt with) and therefore roughly will have spending power to match our attendances. So if you league table average attendances, roughly that would correspond to how we'd compete. But even then many aren't saddled with our debt and loss issue.

It's a mess, and sadly one that seems almost unavoidable for mid size clubs who get relegated after an extended top flight stay. I fear that we aren't going to be seeing happy times at the Reebok for some considerable time.
http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/D ... 37,00.html
That would suggest that Brighton could well be top flight in the future.
The above post is complete bollox/garbage/nonsense, please point this out to me at any and every occasion possible.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by bwfcdan94 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:10 pm

Also what Bruce said is a good point.
The above post is complete bollox/garbage/nonsense, please point this out to me at any and every occasion possible.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by thebish » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:10 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:Well, happy new year everyone.

This news however, isn't exactly happy is it?

It is clear that we could absolutely not afford to drop from the premiership. Though we could scarcely afford to stay in it. The chilling thing is that we are going to be hit by a FFP penalty next season unless we can (by my rough calculations) reduce our outgoings by about £40M - given the reduction in income we will also suffer. This does not seem likely, which may be the biggest understatement around.

So we will likely face financial penalty or a transfer ban.

The worst thing is, that I can't see a way out, even a new rich owner wiping the debt out tomorrow (we are in fantasy world again) couldn't spend his cash to dig us out due to FFP once again kicking in. Essentially we are going to be constrained by our income (this is best case scenario assuming debt can be dealt with) and therefore roughly will have spending power to match our attendances. So if you league table average attendances, roughly that would correspond to how we'd compete. But even then many aren't saddled with our debt and loss issue.

It's a mess, and sadly one that seems almost unavoidable for mid size clubs who get relegated after an extended top flight stay. I fear that we aren't going to be seeing happy times at the Reebok for some considerable time.

fortunately we have an ace manager who can pull rabbits out of hats! :D no??

welcome back Insane One - you've been missed! 'tis a lonely life not being a panic fanny and not calling for Dougie's head every ten minutes!
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Re: The Debt.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:53 pm

Thanks guys. Feeling better, but not out the woods totally yet, been trying to keep up with the Whites news though sadly it isn't making good reading. Need to really catch up on here.

Bish - I think we are beyond pulling rabbits out of hats even. I mean the best manager around for swimming against the tide at clubs with 'less resources' is currently sitting in the bottom three of the premiership having spent a whole lot more than we will be spending for a long long time, even in the top flight. Promotion wouldn't be a solution for us anymore I fear. Somehow there needs to be a long term strategy carved out, I'm not sure that the people in charge of us (at board level) have the desire or energy for that anymore though and neither do they have the patience from the fans.

FFP really is a very bad thing for ourselves, Blackburn etc.......

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Re: The Debt.

Post by TKIZ! » Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:17 pm

Good to have you back, Insane one. Happy New Year to everyone
Pfffft.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by danardif1 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:05 pm

The problem then if a club's turnover potential is directly linked to their attendance figures, that if you're suffering from low attendance figures you can't afford to improve the team to get the fans back through the turnstiles!?!

I do think the club is in dire need of a revamp from top to bottom. Ultimately we need to become a club who can sustain themselves successfully on youth and bringing players to the first team. We've shown a lack of nous in the transfer market for a long time now (basically since Big Sam went, though some of Megson's signings were good), and we've not brought any decent youth talent through for a long time (I can't think of anyone in the last 8 or so years, you have to go back to Kevin Nolan and Nicky Hunt for anything like a decent return on the youth squads).

If there's money that needs spending, it's on those things. Changing the way we conduct transfers and ultimately trying to rid ourselves of a need for senior transfers by creating a fertile youth system. Those are things that are attainable goals, but currently BWFC is a creaky old dinosaur club, stuck in the same thinking that got it successfully into the Premier League nearly 15 years ago. Under Big Sam we innovated, getting value for money performance on the pitch, but now we've definitely gone backwards from that.

We've got a great big stadium we can't fill, fans that are disillusioned at what is being offered on pitch, little to no feed-through of youth players that are good enough for professional football, poor form in the transfer market, both in terms of cost and quality. These are things that run throughout the club, it's not just Gartside's fault or Dougie's fault, or even Coyle's fault when he was here... it's the whole system that we've been run to since setting our stall out back in the mid-to-late 90's when we were a yo-yo club. We set our ambitions high and accordingly to the model that was successful in that period, but we've not adapted to modern football. I still see a further drop down the divisions ahead before another revival ala Rioch and Super John.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Bijou Bob » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:56 pm

If the business model and business strategy are wrong then it's the board who must take responsibility and carry the can.

Only in football do incompetent boards and incompetent chairs get continuing free reign to carry on regardless.

I really fear we could be the next Portsmouth. The club may have a long term strategy but I'm blowed if I can tell what it is. We continue with an academy that has produced nothing for years, either in terms of a usable player or someone worth a transfer fee. Frankly, it's a shambles. Why isn't the owner sorting out the chair and the board??
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Re: The Debt.

Post by Harry Genshaw » Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:21 pm

All them figures & calculations made my head hurt and I've just heard we're 2 goals down.

On the upside it's nice to see the Insane one back :oyea:
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Re: The Debt.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:08 pm

Bijou Bob wrote:If the business model and business strategy are wrong then it's the board who must take responsibility and carry the can.

Only in football do incompetent boards and incompetent chairs get continuing free reign to carry on regardless.

I really fear we could be the next Portsmouth. The club may have a long term strategy but I'm blowed if I can tell what it is. We continue with an academy that has produced nothing for years, either in terms of a usable player or someone worth a transfer fee. Frankly, it's a shambles. Why isn't the owner sorting out the chair and the board??
I don't think they are incompetent. No more than anyone else in football.

They could have stopped Allardyce from bringing in the likes of Youri and Campo and starting the rise in the wage bill off, and subsequently not spent money on Anelka etc...but then they'd have been criticised and probably demonstrated against for not being 'ambitious'.

The debt isn't the thing that really hurts us. It is of course a problem but mainly owed to Eddie Davies who has now even cancelled interest adding on top. So I think as long as Eddie is happy it isn't the major issue. The big issue is FFP rules which effectively are going to roughly sort clubs by income hey can generate. Over time you'd expect those with bigger gates and hence bigger incomes to rise and those with mediocre or smaller ones to fall. Obviously it won't be clear cut as that, no immediately, but over time you can imagine it will start to average it out. We might even be able to ride that were it not for the annual losses that seem to be rising despite major cost cutting.

I don't think broadly they are incompetent, I suspect that running a club like BWFC long term is a no win situation unless you are in the premiership riding the crest of a wave or are up there with a rich backer prepared to sink money in. Sadly the rule change will only emphasise this even more if fear.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by Bijou Bob » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:54 pm

Ah, so spending the last four years at work overseeing a slump in business that led your company to the edge of an abyss is competent is it? I suspect had that been you or I, our employers would see it somewhat differently.
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Re: The Debt.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:01 pm

Bijou Bob wrote:Ah, so spending the last four years at work overseeing a slump in business that led your company to the edge of an abyss is competent is it? I suspect had that been you or I, our employers would see it somewhat differently.
It is football, an entirely different world. If they were judged by financial results purely it would be a different ball game.

But they aren't. And no fans have been saying don't buy new players, save the money and stop us going into debt and accept that we can't compete in the top flight or even realistically compete to get there.

There simply isn't an answer sometimes.

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Re: The Debt.

Post by thebish » Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:02 pm

Bijou Bob wrote:Ah, so spending the last four years at work overseeing a slump in business that led your company to the edge of an abyss is competent is it? I suspect had that been you or I, our employers would see it somewhat differently.

hmmmm... often said - but then I doubt your company or BWFCI's relies on a bogroll millionaire to pump millions in every time you want to buy stock or equipment...
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