All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Where fellow sufferers gather to share the pain, longing and unrequited transfer requests that make being a Wanderer what it is...

Moderator: Zulus Thousand of em

Post Reply
Peter Thompson
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 2076
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:54 pm

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by Peter Thompson » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:29 pm

jetsetwilly wrote:The most worrying thing is how tactically clueless we are. It's like 11 people who have never met before. Lennon fine at Celtic when most games are a gimme. No good at working with this lot. Good day out ruined by an awful display AGAIN
I've been saying this for a while now, and even more worrying is that apparently Lennon was actually pleased with that performance tonight and said something along the lines of 'people can see that we are moving in the right direction'.

It was a dreadful performance - a decent point though, but a truly awful performance that was passionless, clueless, shambolic, lethargic, with a lack of any organisation, tempo, pace, movement, creativity and attacking intent - many of the players looked like they didn't want to be there and couldn't give a shit....and it was like playing with 10 men with Pratley, who had a shocking game and he is our captain - there are so many things wrong with this side, and for Lennon to think that it was an acceptable performance tells me that he's managing with his 'head up his arse'....he'll lose the fans quickly if continues to come out with bollocks comments like that.

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 38550
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Lost between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light a penny candle from a star.

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:27 am

One of the things I noticed today was our seeming desire to keep the ball rather than actually doing anything with it. Far too many times a promising looking attack ended up with the ball back with Amos. Casado and Derik both fired passes at each other that were fired right back for no obvious reason other than parting with the ball. Nobody seemed to be heading straight for the opponent's box with scoring in mind. Mark Davies needs to come back a.s.a.p.
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

irie Cee Bee
Reliable
Reliable
Posts: 632
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:55 am

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by irie Cee Bee » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:55 am

I love my Bolton team. Finally got a chance to watch them for the first time this season via live streaming of Sky Sports. We were truly dreadful and based on what I saw, it will take a miracle for us to survive relegation.

Wheater was a colossal throughout the game and Amos filled me with confidence. Yes, we picked a team to scrap being without our creative players Mark Davies and Silva, but our players for the most part were levels below what I had expected to see. A terrible game by two poor sides.

Praying for a miracle.

SmokinFrazier
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1321
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:54 am

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by SmokinFrazier » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:39 am

jetsetwilly wrote:The most worrying thing is how tactically clueless we are. It's like 11 people who have never met before.
It's not far off that though. Amos is a new signing and didn't play many games for us last year, Derik is a new signing, Casado is new, Spearing has barely played under Lennon, Clayton hasn't had many games under Lennon and Ameobi is obviously a new signing. That's 6 out of the starting 11 who are new to the system, plus 2 out of the 3 subs we used fit the same category. The only players in our team tonight who should be familiar with the system are Wheater, Dervite, Vela, Pratley, Feeney and Danns off the bench, though a couple of them have missed a lot of games through injury.

I think they're a good bunch of players but you can't just expect them to all come together and play well instantly. It doesn't work when that happens and that's reinforced when you look at examples in the Premier League of clubs which have a big turnover of players, such as Liverpool, United and Spurs. You can't bring in 6 or 7 new players from all different leagues and expect them to gel together, it's a long process and I think we're suffering because of that.

Great teams are always predictable in their selection and you can't create a good side without the players knowing each other well. Ours clearly don't but that's not surprising when so many are new to the system and are being asked to work alongside players they don't understand. It's too easy to look at, say, a defensive mistake and criticise the players or the manager, but the reality is, when those players speak different languages and have worked together for a few months and played together three or four times, it's bound to lead to errors and out of sync performances. I think that's what we're seeing now, except all over the pitch. We are out of sync but I wouldn't expect any different when so many new faces are added to the squad.

jetsetwilly
Reliable
Reliable
Posts: 514
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Cleckheaton

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by jetsetwilly » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:10 am

Yes it takes time to gel but that would mean some sense of consistency. The likes of Spearing and Vela were out in the child now seem to be first names on the sheet. Derik at right back???? The manager is responsible for bringing the team together and that is not happening. Do we think that all the others in this league have not had to gel in new players? Our issue is that the players don't look to even know each other. Do we train together? There seems to be no plan on how we will score and better teams than Preston (most teams) will score against us so we can't sit back for a nil nil

Zulus Thousand of em
Icon
Icon
Posts: 5043
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:58 am
Location: 200 miles darn sarf

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by Zulus Thousand of em » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:28 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bijou Bob wrote:I've no idea how he can justify only a yellow. Presumably he felt there was no intent.
Intent is irrelevant. If you deny a clear goal scoring opportunity whether on purpose or by accident it is a red card. And that was a clear goal scoring opportunity.
Well, that's a new Law on me then. Straight from the Andy Gray Guide to the Laws of the Game! :D

Of course intent is relevant. If there had been no intent then there would have been no foul committed. Accidents aren't fouls. The referee gave the foul so, in his opinion, there was intent to commit a foul. The decision making process then moves on to 'did the foul deny a clear goalscoring opportunity?' If, in the opinion of the referee or his assistant, it did deny the opportunity then the offender is issued with a red card.

For the avoidance of doubt, the incident was a clear foul. The officials got that right. The incident prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity. The officials either got that wrong or bottled it. The latter, in my opinion. The bastard should have been sent off.
God's country! God's county!
God's town! God's team!!
How can we fail?

COME ON YOU WHITES!!

Jugs
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1949
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:31 pm
Location: On a shelf

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by Jugs » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:37 am

I don't think we were as bad as people are making out. That was Preston's fourth 0-0 at Deepdale this season, so they're obviously pretty good at keeping teams out while boring their own fans.

And it didn't take much to keep us out, did it? No Davies, no Clough, no Silva. Going back to last season and beyond, we had no Chungy, no Eidur, no Eagles. We had no attacking spark, so what was the most we could really expect out of yesterday? Yet we still created arguably the game's two best chances, only to see one snuffed out by a blatant last man foul. Had Clayton been allowed to go through on goal, I reckon that might have been 1-0 and game won.

Prufrock
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 20235
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:51 pm

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by Prufrock » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:56 am

A) Watford signed 13 players this summer. They're doing all right.

B) If you're the manager of a team that's just had a huge overhaul, you don't get to use that as an excuse if you change things constantly. Our teamsheet should be read out by the guy who does the lottery. "Tonight the formation is Excalibur, and it's set of players number 4. This is only the second time this combination has appeared, the last being in aa 2-0 defeat away at Rotherham".
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

Prufrock
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 20235
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:51 pm

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by Prufrock » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:04 am

Zulus Thousand of em wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bijou Bob wrote:I've no idea how he can justify only a yellow. Presumably he felt there was no intent.
Intent is irrelevant. If you deny a clear goal scoring opportunity whether on purpose or by accident it is a red card. And that was a clear goal scoring opportunity.
Well, that's a new Law on me then. Straight from the Andy Gray Guide to the Laws of the Game! :D

Of course intent is relevant. If there had been no intent then there would have been no foul committed. Accidents aren't fouls. The referee gave the foul so, in his opinion, there was intent to commit a foul. The decision making process then moves on to 'did the foul deny a clear goalscoring opportunity?' If, in the opinion of the referee or his assistant, it did deny the opportunity then the offender is issued with a red card.

For the avoidance of doubt, the incident was a clear foul. The officials got that right. The incident prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity. The officials either got that wrong or bottled it. The latter, in my opinion. The bastard should have been sent off.
Well no, not quite. Very few fouls are intentional (other than the cynical midfield trips that usually end in bookings, or straight red Roy Keane style meltdowns). That lad last night wasn't thinking "there's no-one else near me, I'm last man, I'll foul him". He was trying to win the ball and didn't.

In order to foul someone you have to trip, kick push etc. and so by definition you have to do something active and intentional but you don't have to intend the result.

But yeah, defo aa foul and once he gives that he has to send him off. One of the worst decisions I've ever seen. You see then not given because they miss the foul, bottle it at that stage, but once he gave the foul there's no other decision he could make. Yet he somehow did. Awful.
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 26525
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:23 am

Zulus Thousand of em wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bijou Bob wrote:I've no idea how he can justify only a yellow. Presumably he felt there was no intent.
Intent is irrelevant. If you deny a clear goal scoring opportunity whether on purpose or by accident it is a red card. And that was a clear goal scoring opportunity.
Well, that's a new Law on me then. Straight from the Andy Gray Guide to the Laws of the Game! :D

Of course intent is relevant. If there had been no intent then there would have been no foul committed. Accidents aren't fouls. The referee gave the foul so, in his opinion, there was intent to commit a foul. The decision making process then moves on to 'did the foul deny a clear goalscoring opportunity?' If, in the opinion of the referee or his assistant, it did deny the opportunity then the offender is issued with a red card.

For the avoidance of doubt, the incident was a clear foul. The officials got that right. The incident prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity. The officials either got that wrong or bottled it. The latter, in my opinion. The bastard should have been sent off.
If you are genuinely going for the ball but accidentally catch the player first that is a foul. It doesn't matter that fouling the player was not your intention it is still a foul. Then the second part of denying a goal scoring opportunity comes into play.

Peter Thompson
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 2076
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:54 pm

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by Peter Thompson » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:25 am

Our forward passing, midfield & attacking movement & general ability with the ball last night was conference standard at best.

The ball was like a hot potato, it's very worrying that our players lack any composure on the ball and have absolutely no desire to get forward and support the attacking players - the gap between the midfield & forwards was glaring last night, its our midfield that is the main problem for me, its shockingly poor and none of them look comfortable with the ball to feet.

Our midfield players look very unfit, unless it a tactic of Lennon's to keep 6 or 7 men in our half at all times they just amble about as if they are in a training session - in Lennon's first few games 12 months ago we pressed high up the pitch and played with a quick tempo and the players got forward quickly.

Now we play exactly the same as we did under Freedman, Lennon now sets his team up similar to Freedman - he continually talks a good game like he knows what he's talking about, but his post match interview last night could have been Freedman's he came across as 'deluded' as Freedman used to - the players last night played like they where running through treacle, our play was so slow and many players hid and didn't want the ball and I still can't believe how abysmal and shambolic Pratley was - for him to be our captain just sums up the team under Lennon, it should be someone who gives a toss, leads by example and gives 100% like Wheater.

Worthy4England
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 23828
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 6:45 pm

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:37 am

Prufrock wrote:A) Watford signed 13 players this summer. They're doing all right.

B) If you're the manager of a team that's just had a huge overhaul, you don't get to use that as an excuse if you change things constantly. Our teamsheet should be read out by the guy who does the lottery. "Tonight the formation is Excalibur, and it's set of players number 4. This is only the second time this combination has appeared, the last being in aa 2-0 defeat away at Rotherham".
You're missing the point completely. We like Lennon. He's a good Manager - so he gets any excuses for shite performances we can think of.

LeverEnd
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8354
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:18 pm
Location: Dirty Leeds

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:40 am

Lack of confidence, people passing the buck and shirking responsibility. Like Tango said earlier, a player gets the ball in a forward position but then looks sideways. Spearing looked most likely to create something. He should be captain and starting every game. I'm hoping that Walford is pouting this out, he's very involved in the technical area that's evident.
...

LeverEnd
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8354
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:18 pm
Location: Dirty Leeds

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:41 am

*pointing. Not pouting. I don't want to see Steve Walford pouting at anyone.
...

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 26525
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:14 am

The whole thing about new players is nonsense. Allardyce signed more than half a side in his first summer in charge and mostly frees. They hit the ground running.

Our problem is the manager shows no consistency. Players come in, go out, systems change radically one week to the next. The whole team looks confused, probably because it is. In the summer Lennon signed two right backs, something I thought was odd given other areas of the squad where we clearly didn't have one suitable player let alone two. But what is even worse is now for no apparent reason neither right back is figuring and we are playing a centre half out of position. Added to that we alternate between a wide open system with two strikers and wingers, then go to the most narrowly depressing system possible the week after. Surely one of Feeney and Clayton if not both had to offer width yesterday......

Set pieces are so clearly unplanned and not thought through it is embarrassing.

As above I hope this Walford has some clue, because it is clear as day that Lennon doesn't....

norm the jedi
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:11 pm
Location: Near a Shandy
Contact:

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by norm the jedi » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:00 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Zulus Thousand of em wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bijou Bob wrote:I've no idea how he can justify only a yellow. Presumably he felt there was no intent.
Intent is irrelevant. If you deny a clear goal scoring opportunity whether on purpose or by accident it is a red card. And that was a clear goal scoring opportunity.
Well, that's a new Law on me then. Straight from the Andy Gray Guide to the Laws of the Game! :D

Of course intent is relevant. If there had been no intent then there would have been no foul committed. Accidents aren't fouls. The referee gave the foul so, in his opinion, there was intent to commit a foul. The decision making process then moves on to 'did the foul deny a clear goalscoring opportunity?' If, in the opinion of the referee or his assistant, it did deny the opportunity then the offender is issued with a red card.

For the avoidance of doubt, the incident was a clear foul. The officials got that right. The incident prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity. The officials either got that wrong or bottled it. The latter, in my opinion. The bastard should have been sent off.
If you are genuinely going for the ball but accidentally catch the player first that is a foul. It doesn't matter that fouling the player was not your intention it is still a foul. Then the second part of denying a goal scoring opportunity comes into play.
Until 4 seconds ago I was sure 'deliberate' was in there somewhere - however like most people with a loose association to the sport spanning a life time of playing and watching at various ,usualy poor, levels I'd never actually read the laws..

According to the FA Law 12 this is a foul - A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:

kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
trips or attempts to trip an opponent
jumps at an opponent
charges an opponent
strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
pushes an opponent
tackles an opponent

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following three offences:

holds an opponent
spits at an opponent
handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)


Read more at http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-gov ... wbXH6Js.99" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So there you have it, careless reckless or excessive.. Intent don't enter into it which, all things considered, is reasonable the result of someones actions albeit circumstantial is seldom solid proof of intent.

And he was last man and should have had first use of the shower gel!
Are we in League 2 yet - Three seasons and we'll be away to Chesham

Worthy4England
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 23828
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 6:45 pm

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:10 pm

I think intent went a while ago - see penalties where the ball has been whacked at some fckers arm - often with no "intent" by the player to stop the ball with said arm, yet the above says handles the ball "deliberately"...

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 18170
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:04 pm

SmokinFrazier wrote:That's 6 out of the starting 11 who are new to the system
There's a system? Just one?
SmokinFrazier wrote:Great teams are always predictable in their selection
Didn't the rags go about five seasons without picking the same XI in consecutive games?

Jugs
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1949
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:31 pm
Location: On a shelf

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by Jugs » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:08 pm

I was crying out for a consistent team selection more than anyone a year ago, citing the examples of Burnley and Leicester as inspirations.

But we've been torn apart by injuries and suspensions, as anyone can see. It isn't easy at the moment to be consistent with team selection.

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 18170
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:28 pm

Prufrock wrote:When is Clough back? With him Clayton and Davies playing off the physical presence of Ameobi we'd be a threat. Presumably nullified by being played in a mental formation.

Until he is I'd be playing Spearing behind Pratz and Mavies with Clayton and Feeney wide. Pick a settled back 4 (the one that ended tonight, though I could be persuaded Prince gets in before Dervite). We'd be fine.
Agree with pretty much all that. We've got players who are good enough, they're just not showing it, and while I've always been one for tactical experimentation it does feel like (1) the experiments aren't working and (2) they're confusing the hell out of the team.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: irie Cee Bee, nicholaldo, Prufrock, RusholmeRuffian, Tails07 and 27 guests