All quiet on the Preston front - 31/10/15

[BWFC_Insane]

I was crying out for a consistent team selection more than anyone a year ago, citing the examples of Burnley and Leicester as inspirations.

But we've been torn apart by injuries and suspensions, as anyone can see. It isn't easy at the moment to be consistent with team selection.

We've not been torn apart. We've had some injuries and suspensions. And even within that there have been changes of shape and personnel that have nothing to do with it.

[bobo the clown]

Insane, really ... honestly ... once every blue moon allow someone else some credit and stop with the shite. Last season (when Jugs is referring to) we were "torn apart" by injuries. They were incessant.

[Jugs]

I was crying out for a consistent team selection more than anyone a year ago, citing the examples of Burnley and Leicester as inspirations.

But we've been torn apart by injuries and suspensions, as anyone can see. It isn't easy at the moment to be consistent with team selection.

We've not been torn apart. We've had some injuries and suspensions. And even within that there have been changes of shape and personnel that have nothing to do with it.

Clayton, Pratley, Mavies, Cravies, Wheater, Clough all had lengthy spells out last season, and all were/are key players. You're telling me Lennon should still pick a consistent team despite these injuries cropping up at various times? This season already, Pratley, Mavies, Clough, Wheater, Dervite, Prince, Derik, Spearing have all had their season's disrupted either by injury of suspension.

[BWFC_Insane]

I was crying out for a consistent team selection more than anyone a year ago, citing the examples of Burnley and Leicester as inspirations.

But we've been torn apart by injuries and suspensions, as anyone can see. It isn't easy at the moment to be consistent with team selection.

We've not been torn apart. We've had some injuries and suspensions. And even within that there have been changes of shape and personnel that have nothing to do with it.

Clayton, Pratley, Mavies, Cravies, Wheater, Clough all had lengthy spells out last season, and all were/are key players. You're telling me Lennon should still pick a consistent team despite these injuries cropping up at various times? This season already, Pratley, Mavies, Clough, Wheater, Dervite, Prince, Derik, Spearing have all had their season's disrupted either by injury of suspension.

All sides have injuries and suspensions. For a start I'd like us to have a defined shape. The number of unnecessary changes and systems employed is a mistake. Find a shape and stick to it instead of changing every week. Then play the best option you have for each position. Stop playing folk out of position.

That has all been possible and not done.

[truewhite15]

I was crying out for a consistent team selection more than anyone a year ago, citing the examples of Burnley and Leicester as inspirations.

But we've been torn apart by injuries and suspensions, as anyone can see. It isn't easy at the moment to be consistent with team selection.

We've not been torn apart. We've had some injuries and suspensions. And even within that there have been changes of shape and personnel that have nothing to do with it.

Clayton, Pratley, Mavies, Cravies, Wheater, Clough all had lengthy spells out last season, and all were/are key players. You're telling me Lennon should still pick a consistent team despite these injuries cropping up at various times? This season already, Pratley, Mavies, Clough, Wheater, Dervite, Prince, Derik, Spearing have all had their season's disrupted either by injury of suspension.

All sides have injuries and suspensions. For a start I'd like us to have a defined shape. The number of unnecessary changes and systems employed is a mistake. Find a shape and stick to it instead of changing every week. Then play the best option you have for each position. Stop playing folk out of position.

That has all been possible and not done.

So we should just blindly pick the same formation week after week, regardless of who's actually available? Cos I'm fairly certain you've bitched about previous managers in the past for doing just that.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Can't remember which thread it was on but there was a discussion about how many points we needed from this run of games between the international breaks:

L Burnley (A)
L Birmingham (H)
D Leeds (H)
D Preston (A)
? Ipswich (A)
? Bristol C (H)

COYWM...

[BWFC_Insane]

I was crying out for a consistent team selection more than anyone a year ago, citing the examples of Burnley and Leicester as inspirations.

But we've been torn apart by injuries and suspensions, as anyone can see. It isn't easy at the moment to be consistent with team selection.

We've not been torn apart. We've had some injuries and suspensions. And even within that there have been changes of shape and personnel that have nothing to do with it.

Clayton, Pratley, Mavies, Cravies, Wheater, Clough all had lengthy spells out last season, and all were/are key players. You're telling me Lennon should still pick a consistent team despite these injuries cropping up at various times? This season already, Pratley, Mavies, Clough, Wheater, Dervite, Prince, Derik, Spearing have all had their season's disrupted either by injury of suspension.

All sides have injuries and suspensions. For a start I'd like us to have a defined shape. The number of unnecessary changes and systems employed is a mistake. Find a shape and stick to it instead of changing every week. Then play the best option you have for each position. Stop playing folk out of position.

That has all been possible and not done.

So we should just blindly pick the same formation week after week, regardless of who's actually available? Cos I'm fairly certain you've bitched about previous managers in the past for doing just that.

No not blindly. But we need a shape that the players become familiar with. You can tweak around with that, but there is nowhere near enough consistency.

Bottom line is results are shite. So the chopping and changing at best is having no effect. It certainly isn't working.

[twilight]

Admittedly I didn't go to the match and I didn't watch it live....I watched it this morning in the cold light of day, knowing the result.
I might get laughed at for this, but I didn't think it was as bad as some people make out. It was a dull boring match, granted, and we are very short on confidence but we kept a clean sheet away from home. That for me alone is small progress.
The worst bit for me was seeing Derek at right back....that lad doesn't know the first thing about playing a full back, it was embarrassing.
The second worst thing, can we please practice passing to each other, set pieces, crosses and corners! God, they were damn awful.
And it was definitely a red card for the lad who brought down Clayton...ref bottled it, shame on him.
Apart from that reasonably happy with a point, could've been worse

[Jugs]

I was crying out for a consistent team selection more than anyone a year ago, citing the examples of Burnley and Leicester as inspirations.

But we've been torn apart by injuries and suspensions, as anyone can see. It isn't easy at the moment to be consistent with team selection.

We've not been torn apart. We've had some injuries and suspensions. And even within that there have been changes of shape and personnel that have nothing to do with it.

Clayton, Pratley, Mavies, Cravies, Wheater, Clough all had lengthy spells out last season, and all were/are key players. You're telling me Lennon should still pick a consistent team despite these injuries cropping up at various times? This season already, Pratley, Mavies, Clough, Wheater, Dervite, Prince, Derik, Spearing have all had their season's disrupted either by injury of suspension.

All sides have injuries and suspensions. For a start I'd like us to have a defined shape. The number of unnecessary changes and systems employed is a mistake. Find a shape and stick to it instead of changing every week. Then play the best option you have for each position. Stop playing folk out of position.

That has all been possible and not done.

Often, it isn't the injury and suspension-ravaged sides that are successful, though. When Burnley went up, they played the same starting XI most of the time. They barely had any injuries or bans. Had they been missing Ings, Vokes, Arfield, Trippier, it would have been a different story. No doubt.

You can't expect a squad as thin as ours to still have consistency in the face of the injuries we had last season. You might want it, but you certainly can't expect it.

Yesterday, we had Clough, Mavies and Dobbie out; all players who could have played in the hole behind the striker. There was no one else available. Consequently, our attacking threat was dampened and we didn't attack as well as we'd have liked.

Sure, Lennon is making his own errors this season but he wasn't making them during the first few weeks of his tenure. We saw a consistent team selection. Injuries have damaged form, damaged confidence, and Lennon is probably struggling to find his best XI. Injuries force your hand, force you to change shape. How can he really know his best eleven when he's got so many players out at various times? Moxey plays well, gets injured. Prince is welcomed back into the side, gets sent off. Spearing was welcomed back into the fold for the first game and got sent off. Lennon must be tearing his ginger hair out.

[norm the jedi]

Admittedly I didn't go to the match and I didn't watch it live....I watched it this morning in the cold light of day, knowing the result.
I might get laughed at for this, but I didn't think it was as bad as some people make out. It was a dull boring match, granted, and we are very short on confidence but we kept a clean sheet away from home. That for me alone is small progress.
The worst bit for me was seeing Derek at right back....that lad doesn't know the first thing about playing a full back, it was embarrassing.
The second worst thing, can we please practice passing to each other, set pieces, crosses and corners! God, they were damn awful.
And it was definitely a red card for the lad who brought down Clayton...ref bottled it, shame on him.
Apart from that reasonably happy with a point, could've been worse

You're not alone I'm equally deluded and had the dubious benefit of watching it live on Tele.
For me we were not very creative and gagging for some pace. We seldom looked under pressure until a flurry in the last couple of minutes
and created the three best opportunities. Feeney sat on the ball when it was easier to score, Madine forced the save and Clayton's run was snuffed out by the foul.
I think Amos made one instinctive save and a couple of regulation catches.
It were a rank bad game but not a bad result for me.

And as for systems... systems don't win games players do. Most of ours are playing at about level the last season and a half would suggest they're capable. Without necessarilly get the results. Thus far we aren't winning games or scoring goals
If anyone was to stick to a rigid system in those circumstances this board would be all over him. He's looking for summat that works with meagre resources which aren't likely to get any less meagre for ever.
Continuing to do the same thing over again and expecting a different result defines insanity.

[thebish]

hyperbole and willy-waving aside...

has anyone got an actual believable theory as to why we have signed two right backs but we're not playing them, preferring (if those who report back from games are to be believed) to play a centre-back out of position?

[thebish]

Admittedly I didn't go to the match and I didn't watch it live....I watched it this morning in the cold light of day, knowing the result.
I might get laughed at for this, but I didn't think it was as bad as some people make out. It was a dull boring match, granted, and we are very short on confidence but we kept a clean sheet away from home. That for me alone is small progress.
The worst bit for me was seeing Derek at right back....that lad doesn't know the first thing about playing a full back, it was embarrassing.
The second worst thing, can we please practice passing to each other, set pieces, crosses and corners! God, they were damn awful.
And it was definitely a red card for the lad who brought down Clayton...ref bottled it, shame on him.
Apart from that reasonably happy with a point, could've been worse

You're not alone I'm equally deluded and had the dubious benefit of watching it live on Tele.
For me we were not very creative and gagging for some pace. We seldom looked under pressure until a flurry in the last couple of minutes
and created the three best opportunities. Feeney sat on the ball when it was easier to score, Madine forced the save and Clayton's run was snuffed out by the foul.
I think Amos made one instinctive save and a couple of regulation catches.
It were a rank bad game but not a bad result for me.

And as for systems... systems don't win games players do. Most of ours are playing at about level the last season and a half would suggest they're capable. Without necessarilly get the results. Thus far we aren't winning games or scoring goals
If anyone was to stick to a rigid system in those circumstances this board would be all over him. He's looking for summat that works with meagre resources which aren't likely to get any less meagre for ever.
Continuing to do the same thing over again and expecting a different result defines insanity.

as is usually the case there are not just two options:

a) pick exactly the same formation/same players every single week
b) change the system/formation/players every week

there are options in between the extremes... I don't think anyone is arguing for either of the extremes.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Yesterday, we had Clough, Mavies and Dobbie out; all players who could have played in the hole behind the striker. There was no one else available. Consequently, our attacking threat was dampened and we didn't attack as well as we'd have liked.

i don't necessarily disagree with you - I think you and BWFCi both have valid arguments - but from what I saw yesterday we played a diamond 442 with Clayton at the top of the diamond. If we were so short of No10s we could have played a different system. It's not like Lenny has shown himself anti-change.

Then again some say Clayton's best position is No10. I'm not sure. I liked him cutting in from the left last season.

[norm the jedi]

Admittedly I didn't go to the match and I didn't watch it live....I watched it this morning in the cold light of day, knowing the result.
I might get laughed at for this, but I didn't think it was as bad as some people make out. It was a dull boring match, granted, and we are very short on confidence but we kept a clean sheet away from home. That for me alone is small progress.
The worst bit for me was seeing Derek at right back....that lad doesn't know the first thing about playing a full back, it was embarrassing.
The second worst thing, can we please practice passing to each other, set pieces, crosses and corners! God, they were damn awful.
And it was definitely a red card for the lad who brought down Clayton...ref bottled it, shame on him.
Apart from that reasonably happy with a point, could've been worse

You're not alone I'm equally deluded and had the dubious benefit of watching it live on Tele.
For me we were not very creative and gagging for some pace. We seldom looked under pressure until a flurry in the last couple of minutes
and created the three best opportunities. Feeney sat on the ball when it was easier to score, Madine forced the save and Clayton's run was snuffed out by the foul.
I think Amos made one instinctive save and a couple of regulation catches.
It were a rank bad game but not a bad result for me.

And as for systems... systems don't win games players do. Most of ours are playing at about level the last season and a half would suggest they're capable. Without necessarilly get the results. Thus far we aren't winning games or scoring goals
If anyone was to stick to a rigid system in those circumstances this board would be all over him. He's looking for summat that works with meagre resources which aren't likely to get any less meagre for ever.
Continuing to do the same thing over again and expecting a different result defines insanity.

as is usually the case there are not just two options:

a) pick exactly the same formation/same players every single week
b) change the system/formation/players every week

there are options in between the extremes... I don't think anyone is arguing for either of the extremes.

I clearly misunderstood the phrases

Consistent team selection
Dependable shape..
and underestimated the level of flexibility implicit therein.

I think Lennon is probably even keener than most of us to find a winning settled predictable formula?
Whether or not he or anyone else can get it done with the resources available is open to question.

[Jugs]

Yesterday, we had Clough, Mavies and Dobbie out; all players who could have played in the hole behind the striker. There was no one else available. Consequently, our attacking threat was dampened and we didn't attack as well as we'd have liked.

i don't necessarily disagree with you - I think you and BWFCi both have valid arguments - but from what I saw yesterday we played a diamond 442 with Clayton at the top of the diamond. If we were so short of No10s we could have played a different system. It's not like Lenny has shown himself anti-change.

Then again some say Clayton's best position is No10. I'm not sure. I liked him cutting in from the left last season.

I have to be honest, I had a hard time figuring out what formation we were playing yesterday, but I thought Clayton was wondering over to the left a lot, at least in the second half. I don't think he's a No.10 personally, but maybe we haven't seen enough of him. I like him, though, and I'd have wagered him scoring if he hadn't have been fouled in the first half.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Certainly started with Feeney up top (looking lost) alongside Ameobi, and a midfield diamond with Spearing behind Pratley/Vela behind Clayton. When Spearing went off for Danns the sub visibly told Vela to sit back in the anchor role. By that time Clayton and Feeney had done a bit of switching around but not to any clear pattern; you couldn't say for instance that Clayton was left and Feeney right with no No10 (the Allardyce 433/451).

[truewhite15]

Certainly started with Feeney up top (looking lost) alongside Ameobi, and a midfield diamond with Spearing behind Pratley/Vela behind Clayton. When Spearing went off for Danns the sub visibly told Vela to sit back in the anchor role. By that time Clayton and Feeney had done a bit of switching around but not to any clear pattern; you couldn't say for instance that Clayton was left and Feeney right with no No10 (the Allardyce 433/451).

Seemed fairly obvious to me. It wasn't really a diamond, more a 4-3-1-2, with Clayton as the 1 and Ameobi and Feeney up front. Midfield 3 very narrow, with Pratley and Vela given more freedom to roam.

Midway through the first half, it was clear that one of the many things that wasn't working was Feeney up front and Clayton in behind. They then switched; Feeney just happened to be an even poorer #10 than Clayton was, and kept wandering out of position...

[BWFC_Insane]

It isn't even about the rather crude notations of a system. There are lots of ways to play.

But yesterday we had a system that offered no width, had a right winger up front, a centre half out at full back and a lack of discernible shape to our play.

Now playing a narrow midfield might be ok, away from home, IF you have two full backs who offer natural width. We had one in Casado yesterday but didn't use it enough. And then Osede was all at sea being a centre half. Which made the system even narrower. The plan might be to lump it to Ameobi and get players around him. But then surely you want Clayton and Feeney behind him coming from each side rather than Feeney essentially out of the game in a position he is basically useless in.

If that is the system then fine, keep going with it. But make it look like there is a plan to develop some attacking play. I don't care if plan is as rudimentary as hoping Ameobi wins it and play off knock downs, but make sure we have the right players in the right areas to exploit it.

Frankly I don't think there is a coherent plan beyond a shape in paper and fitting names into it. We have no discernible style or tempo or really anything that you could say gives us something to build around. The lack of a clear plan is the most disappointing. Even a basic plan of getting big lads up front and winning knock downs, or working on winning set pieces and making maximum use of them. It is totally unstructured. Freedman wanted us sitting behind the ball and breaking with pace. It may have been one dimensional and not suitable for the players we had at times, but at least a style existed. Coyle persisted with his two wingers and two strikers, again it might have been wrong given the weak midfield we had but you could see the plan.

What we are aiming for now, I literally have no idea. I don't know how Lennon sees us playing. What sort of shape and style we are trying. And I genuinely don't believe Lennon knows either. I feel it is just name a team write them on the board and best of luck with it.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

'Strewth. It was abysmal. The fact PNE were equally abysmal is neither here nor there. The players do not operate as a team. Neil Lennon couldn't manage my haemorrhoids. We may well survive relegation this season, by the skin of somebody's teeth, but that's because Rotherham shouldn't be here, Charlton have been sacrificed on some satanic altar and either Bristol or MK Fxckheads or Leeds will outperform us in the shitstakes. Not because we have players 'that are good enough', but because we'll be bloody lucky.

[TKIZ!]

Went to the game. The standards were pretty poor from both teams. I liked the look of Casado, Wheats and Clayton. Thought we lacked shape or drive and Pratley was 'gassed' after 35 mins. When we did have it down on the floor we looked ok but we have a tendency to just revert to smashing the ball down field.

Derik is never a RB in a million years and lost count of the amount of times Ameobi missed the ball going for headers. It's all pretty gloomy here