Question about a fan takeover

[Athers]

I fear they'd probably spend that £20m treading water to cover the losses without going anywhere!

[midlands exile]

I suspect when you take into account any sale money for the club, the compounded interest on the ED loans, potential tax efficiencies of the year-on-year losses and the huge "debt" write off, plus whatever happens to the money between Bolton/Isle of Man/British Virgin Islands, Eddie and his kids won't be too much worse off tonight.

Still, he's left us in better financial shape than the likes of Ridsdale at Leeds, so thanks for that. Just don't look at the table or the teamsheet, eh?

[Nicko58]

I suspect when you take into account any sale money for the club, the compounded interest on the ED loans, potential tax efficiencies of the year-on-year losses and the huge "debt" write off, plus whatever happens to the money between Bolton/Isle of Man/British Virgin Islands, Eddie and his kids won't be too much worse off tonight.

Still, he's left us in better financial shape than the likes of Ridsdale at Leeds, so thanks for that. Just don't look at the table or the teamsheet, eh?

Trevor Birch, the financial consultant who we have brought in to find a buyer and someone who would know more about our financial situation than most, says otherwise. That is good enough for me.

[Worthy4England]

With all these benefits, makes you wonder why anyone would pull out...how much do you think he's up or down?

[Enoch]

Obviously, he's quids in.

Being a proper philanthropist though, he wants to give someone else a go at the trough.

[Gudnib]

I suspect when you take into account any sale money for the club, the compounded interest on the ED loans, potential tax efficiencies of the year-on-year losses and the huge "debt" write off, plus whatever happens to the money between Bolton/Isle of Man/British Virgin Islands, Eddie and his kids won't be too much worse off tonight.

Still, he's left us in better financial shape than the likes of Ridsdale at Leeds, so thanks for that. Just don't look at the table or the teamsheet, eh?

Trevor Birch, the financial consultant who we have brought in to find a buyer and someone who would know more about our financial situation than most, says otherwise. That is good enough for me.

Are you kidding? Their Dad has shelled out £150million of their potential inheritance on BWFC some of whose supporters can do nothing but offer up abuse and they are not 'too much worse off tonight'?

[midlands exile]

With all these benefits, makes you wonder why anyone would pull out...how much do you think he's up or down?

Did some fag packet sums earlier in this thread (pages 5 and 6), apologies for shocking formatting and some potential double counting. Could be anywhere from slightly up to a much-reduced but still significant loss. Wasn't trying to state "the real truth" but instead illustrate that it's very possible things aren't how they look at face value. And I'm sure a self made millionaire as canny as ED would use every legal trick in the book to give himself the best financial result possible. No criticism for that, its business.

But no one will ever know other than ED and maybe PG (wonder if his illness has anything to do with things suddenly moving swiftly?), doubt Trevor Birch will have sight of the full story as I assume he won't be able to "look under the bonnet" of the off shore finances, and perhaps even some cloudy bookkeeping here too.

I'm guessing the club is at the point where he'd need to seriously have to reach into his own pocket to improve our lot, which as a fan he wants but as a businessman he's got other thoughts. Fair play to him, its his money. Donning a tin foil hat, maybe he's shifted all the money he needed into the Bermuda triangle? Safely away from inheritance tax for the kids...

[midlands exile]

I suspect when you take into account any sale money for the club, the compounded interest on the ED loans, potential tax efficiencies of the year-on-year losses and the huge "debt" write off, plus whatever happens to the money between Bolton/Isle of Man/British Virgin Islands, Eddie and his kids won't be too much worse off tonight.

Still, he's left us in better financial shape than the likes of Ridsdale at Leeds, so thanks for that. Just don't look at the table or the teamsheet, eh?

Trevor Birch, the financial consultant who we have brought in to find a buyer and someone who would know more about our financial situation than most, says otherwise. That is good enough for me.

Are you kidding? Their Dad has shelled out £150million of their potential inheritance on BWFC some of whose supporters can do nothing but offer up abuse and they are not 'too much worse off tonight'?

If you seriously think he's losing £150m you need your bumps feeling.

[Nicko58]

I suspect when you take into account any sale money for the club, the compounded interest on the ED loans, potential tax efficiencies of the year-on-year losses and the huge "debt" write off, plus whatever happens to the money between Bolton/Isle of Man/British Virgin Islands, Eddie and his kids won't be too much worse off tonight.

Still, he's left us in better financial shape than the likes of Ridsdale at Leeds, so thanks for that. Just don't look at the table or the teamsheet, eh?

Trevor Birch, the financial consultant who we have brought in to find a buyer and someone who would know more about our financial situation than most, says otherwise. That is good enough for me.

Are you kidding? Their Dad has shelled out £150million of their potential inheritance on BWFC some of whose supporters can do nothing but offer up abuse and they are not 'too much worse off tonight'?

You and I are in agreement so I have no idea why you have quoted me as well midlands exile in your post.

[Nicko58]

With all these benefits, makes you wonder why anyone would pull out...how much do you think he's up or down?

Did some fag packet sums earlier in this thread (pages 5 and 6), apologies for shocking formatting and some potential double counting. Could be anywhere from slightly up to a much-reduced but still significant loss. Wasn't trying to state "the real truth" but instead illustrate that it's very possible things aren't how they look at face value. And I'm sure a self made millionaire as canny as ED would use every legal trick in the book to give himself the best financial result possible. No criticism for that, its business.

But no one will ever know other than ED and maybe PG (wonder if his illness has anything to do with things suddenly moving swiftly?), doubt Trevor Birch will have sight of the full story as I assume he won't be able to "look under the bonnet" of the off shore finances, and perhaps even some cloudy bookkeeping here too.

I'm guessing the club is at the point where he'd need to seriously have to reach into his own pocket to improve our lot, which as a fan he wants but as a businessman he's got other thoughts. Fair play to him, its his money. Donning a tin foil hat, maybe he's shifted all the money he needed into the Bermuda triangle? Safely away from inheritance tax for the kids...

All of the accounts have been audited by Deliotte, haven't they?

[midlands exile]

I suspect when you take into account any sale money for the club, the compounded interest on the ED loans, potential tax efficiencies of the year-on-year losses and the huge "debt" write off, plus whatever happens to the money between Bolton/Isle of Man/British Virgin Islands, Eddie and his kids won't be too much worse off tonight.

Still, he's left us in better financial shape than the likes of Ridsdale at Leeds, so thanks for that. Just don't look at the table or the teamsheet, eh?

Trevor Birch, the financial consultant who we have brought in to find a buyer and someone who would know more about our financial situation than most, says otherwise. That is good enough for me.

Shock horror, Trevor Birch gives a message that suits his employer. The numbers you see are the figures as presented by the old guard. Not having a pop at ED for wanting to manage his investment as shrewdly as possible, just saying I doubt he's taking the hit so many take at face value.

[midlands exile]

With all these benefits, makes you wonder why anyone would pull out...how much do you think he's up or down?

Did some fag packet sums earlier in this thread (pages 5 and 6), apologies for shocking formatting and some potential double counting. Could be anywhere from slightly up to a much-reduced but still significant loss. Wasn't trying to state "the real truth" but instead illustrate that it's very possible things aren't how they look at face value. And I'm sure a self made millionaire as canny as ED would use every legal trick in the book to give himself the best financial result possible. No criticism for that, its business.

But no one will ever know other than ED and maybe PG (wonder if his illness has anything to do with things suddenly moving swiftly?), doubt Trevor Birch will have sight of the full story as I assume he won't be able to "look under the bonnet" of the off shore finances, and perhaps even some cloudy bookkeeping here too.

I'm guessing the club is at the point where he'd need to seriously have to reach into his own pocket to improve our lot, which as a fan he wants but as a businessman he's got other thoughts. Fair play to him, its his money. Donning a tin foil hat, maybe he's shifted all the money he needed into the Bermuda triangle? Safely away from inheritance tax for the kids...

All of the accounts have been audited by Deliotte, haven't they?

There are imperfectly legal ways of managing accounts to maximise benefits to owners. Witness the multi nationals paying a pittance in UK corporation tax for years.

[bobo the clown]

So .... do you suspect it's all a con and he's spent next to nothing and he's trousered plenty ?

Or do you love him really. Deep down ?

[Worthy4England]

With all these benefits, makes you wonder why anyone would pull out...how much do you think he's up or down?

Did some fag packet sums earlier in this thread (pages 5 and 6), apologies for shocking formatting and some potential double counting. Could be anywhere from slightly up to a much-reduced but still significant loss. Wasn't trying to state "the real truth" but instead illustrate that it's very possible things aren't how they look at face value. And I'm sure a self made millionaire as canny as ED would use every legal trick in the book to give himself the best financial result possible. No criticism for that, its business.

But no one will ever know other than ED and maybe PG (wonder if his illness has anything to do with things suddenly moving swiftly?), doubt Trevor Birch will have sight of the full story as I assume he won't be able to "look under the bonnet" of the off shore finances, and perhaps even some cloudy bookkeeping here too.

I'm guessing the club is at the point where he'd need to seriously have to reach into his own pocket to improve our lot, which as a fan he wants but as a businessman he's got other thoughts. Fair play to him, its his money. Donning a tin foil hat, maybe he's shifted all the money he needed into the Bermuda triangle? Safely away from inheritance tax for the kids...

Looking at the Accounts, I can see loan interest repayments to Moonshift of £23.8m over the years...our debt is £183m - so taking one from t'other, I'm coming out at £160m which I'd struggle to find down the back of our settee. Not sure that reflects one-off cash he's put in, not directly related to the floating charge we're granted (such as the £3.5m for Academy Naming Rights etc.)

There were player success fees of £18.6m owed to Moonshift between 2008-2014, but no indication whether these were ever paid.

Which group of businesses do you think he's netting off his corporation tax saving against, that you're calculating is a saving to him?

I don't get the IHT saving particularly - I understand why I'd put my estate in an offshore trust - I don't get where you're calculating a saving from? IHT will only be calculated once he carks it, based on the estate that's declared - how is this a saving - might be me being stupid here

[Peter Thompson]

Well done Trevor Birch, at last someone who been open with the fans and kept us updated, and he's only been in the job 2 mins....which is all we really ask for. Also a massive thank you to ED for agreeing to wipe the debt, this could now be his legacy.

Can I please ask however that the takeover is concluded ASAP as otherwise it could be too late if its left until January as its likely that we could be cast adrift by then, at least lets have a go at staying in the championship. I actually think that this Birch update and new ownership may just galvanise the club & fans and give us belief that we can get out this - but then again we've still got the same shower of shite on the pitch unless we can bring in a couple of new players asap.

[Gudnib]

As an Isle of Man resident for 30 years you would have to be pretty dumb to use a Bermudan trust or investment company to save inheritance tax for the simple reason that there is no inheritance tax on the Isle of Man. Neither is there capital gains tax, capital transfer tax, wealth tax or stamp duty and the highest rate of income tax is 20%.

There can be little doubt though that ED will have taken professional advice on how to best arrange his investments after selling his interest and retiring from Strix and there will have been sound commercial reasons for arriving at the structure used.

Its plain that ED amassed his wealth working in a low tax jurisdiction but he has spent the great majority of it in the UK subsidising the wages of overpaid footballers whose earnings will have attracted high rates of tax.

His investment in Bolton Wanderers was manageable and the club was successful until Big Sam's big ideas caused the rift that eventually would cost ED around £150million.

ED was not spending his money fast enough to satisfy Big Sam's ambitions and it was Phil Gartside's job to sort it. It was unreasonable and he couldn't.

I appreciate what Big Sam did for BWFC but won't be buying a copy of his book.

[boltonboris]

I appreciate what Big Sam did for BWFC but won't be buying a copy of his book.

You should.. It's a nice easy read. Nothing that we didn't already know though

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

As an Isle of Man resident for 30 years you would have to be pretty dumb to use a Bermudan trust or investment company to save inheritance tax for the simple reason that there is no inheritance tax on the Isle of Man. Neither is there capital gains tax, capital transfer tax, wealth tax or stamp duty and the highest rate of income tax is 20%.

There can be little doubt though that ED will have taken professional advice on how to best arrange his investments after selling his interest and retiring from Strix and there will have been sound commercial reasons for arriving at the structure used.

Its plain that ED amassed his wealth working in a low tax jurisdiction but he has spent the great majority of it in the UK subsidising the wages of overpaid footballers whose earnings will have attracted high rates of tax.

His investment in Bolton Wanderers was manageable and the club was successful until Big Sam's big ideas caused the rift that eventually would cost ED around £150million.

ED was not spending his money fast enough to satisfy Big Sam's ambitions and it was Phil Gartside's job to sort it. It was unreasonable and he couldn't.

I appreciate what Big Sam did for BWFC but won't be buying a copy of his book.

I may be slightly paraphrasing, but: did BSA really cost us £150m?

As I recall, at the time we tended to have players on high but relatively short-term contracts, and weren't shy about showing them the door when it suited us (NGotty, Campo, Djorkaeff, Stelios). That probably wasn't a sustainable model for long-term success, especially as others were copying it, so Sam wanted to get younger players (up to and including the class of Anelka) for higher fees on longer contracts. That's a whole heap more expensive so Eddie said no – and coupled with the England rejection, that was enough for Sam to seek a bigger club.

Thereafter, Lee seemed to almost double the squad overnight with largely shite; Megson spent (by some reckonings) more than any BWFC manager in history, on a mix of Cahills and Shittus; Coyle (and Gartside) threw precious parachute money at has-beens; Freedman cut our cloth and bought a lot of dishrags; Lennon tried to cleared the decks on a sinking ship.

To me, the blame can be shared between all those managers, all of whom wasted money to some extent – like all managers do. Despite occasional protestations (IIRC Coyle, Freedman and Lennon have all spun the "I won't just spend money for the sake of it" soundbite) they will spend their budget, then ask for a bit more. Maybe less passionate BWFC fans than Gartside and Eddie would have said no more often.

[CrazyHorse]

Anyway, have we got a new owner yet?

I was kind of hoping for a Mexican opium consortium fronted by Jared Borgetti myself.

[Gudnib]

As an Isle of Man resident for 30 years you would have to be pretty dumb to use a Bermudan trust or investment company to save inheritance tax for the simple reason that there is no inheritance tax on the Isle of Man. Neither is there capital gains tax, capital transfer tax, wealth tax or stamp duty and the highest rate of income tax is 20%.

There can be little doubt though that ED will have taken professional advice on how to best arrange his investments after selling his interest and retiring from Strix and there will have been sound commercial reasons for arriving at the structure used.

Its plain that ED amassed his wealth working in a low tax jurisdiction but he has spent the great majority of it in the UK subsidising the wages of overpaid footballers whose earnings will have attracted high rates of tax.

His investment in Bolton Wanderers was manageable and the club was successful until Big Sam's big ideas caused the rift that eventually would cost ED around £150million.

ED was not spending his money fast enough to satisfy Big Sam's ambitions and it was Phil Gartside's job to sort it. It was unreasonable and he couldn't.

I appreciate what Big Sam did for BWFC but won't be buying a copy of his book.

I may be slightly paraphrasing, but: did BSA really cost us £150m?

As I recall, at the time we tended to have players on high but relatively short-term contracts, and weren't shy about showing them the door when it suited us (NGotty, Campo, Djorkaeff, Stelios). That probably wasn't a sustainable model for long-term success, especially as others were copying it, so Sam wanted to get younger players (up to and including the class of Anelka) for higher fees on longer contracts. That's a whole heap more expensive so Eddie said no – and coupled with the England rejection, that was enough for Sam to seek a bigger club.

Thereafter, Lee seemed to almost double the squad overnight with largely shite; Megson spent (by some reckonings) more than any BWFC manager in history, on a mix of Cahills and Shittus; Coyle (and Gartside) threw precious parachute money at has-beens; Freedman cut our cloth and bought a lot of dishrags; Lennon tried to cleared the decks on a sinking ship.

To me, the blame can be shared between all those managers, all of whom wasted money to some extent – like all managers do. Despite occasional protestations (IIRC Coyle, Freedman and Lennon have all spun the "I won't just spend money for the sake of it" soundbite) they will spend their budget, then ask for a bit more. Maybe less passionate BWFC fans than Gartside and Eddie would have said no more often.

Its not quite what I am saying. The debt grew hugely after Big Sam left in vain attempts to stay in the Premiership. Managers failed and signings were poor and it was all at the cost of Eddie Davies.
But Sam appears to have put the blame on Phil Gartside for his leaving and that doesn't seem to me to be right or fair.
In the year Sam left £14million was spent on player contracts (i.e. transfer fees and agents costs) taking the cost of investment in players to £24 million. (Their wages were on top of this, of course).
Nicolas Anelka was one of those purchased (probably by Eddie guaranteeing the additional borrowing needed to fund it) whilst Eddie paid in another £3.5million for the naming rights of the academy.
Later Eddie paid off the bank borrowing (£38million at the time Sam left) but the debt just kept growing for the reasons we have both set out.