Which muppet can we appoint next?

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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by Bruce Rioja » Fri May 13, 2016 9:35 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:No way Bob Martin's coming here, he'll hope for a Premier job, get a Championship one and not get them promoted
If I was a gambling man then I'd have a couple of Quid on Bob Martin pitching up at Norwich. Some nugget on Look North was saying that Everton should go for Mourinho because they're "a sleeping giant and a massive club". Is it actually possible to be both? :conf:
That new bloke who invested in them is loaded though isn't he?
Oh, I've absolutely no idea. Everton or Norwich?
Everton. Think he's loaded. Supposedly the one who made the decision to boot Martinez, rather than Kenwright.
Ah, well that stacks up as I really couldn't envisage the 'impresario' (is there actually any other human being on earth that has that title on his or her business cards?) giving Martinez his marching orders.
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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri May 13, 2016 10:18 am

plymouth wanderer wrote:IMO, getting the right manager in is more important than getting players in! I'd spend every last penny and break out every promise in the book to get Warnock installed!
Game of opinions and all that, but to me Warnock is almost exactly wrong for us.

The way I see it, when hiring our next manager there's a few boxes we have to tick; some are more important than others, to the extent that we might not have to tick them all, but this is the checklist (in approximate order of importance) I go through in my head when names are mentioned.

1. DIVISIONAL EXPERIENCE: How well does he know the Third and Fourth Divisions? Players to sign, players to beware, suitable tactics for certain opponents: in many ways we’re going into the unknown, so the last thing we need is a newbie. It would help if the manager had taken clubs out of this division before.

2. EMPIRE-BUILDING: Although there is a short-term need to arrest the decline, IMO we don’t need a firefighter, we need an empire-builder. I want someone who’ll be here for at least three seasons, not just relying on hired hands but developing the academy graduation, scouting network, the club’s standing in the community. Employment longevity isn’t always an entirely accurate barometer of development but it shows that the board think the guy’s doing something right.

3. WORKING TO BUDGET: Can he find a player cheap? Can he develop kids into regulars? Can he use the loan system savvily without depending on it for everything?

4. FAN EXCITEMENT: I get the feeling the first couple of months of next season will be vital in establishing momentum and maintaining attendance. An inspiring new manager, whom the public believed could turn this club round, would help. “Excitement” is perhaps a slippery concept – Coyle and Lennon were welcomed – but we really don’t want to hire someone who makes shoulders shrug. This isn’t just upon his appointment but when fans see his team play: is it the sort of attractive football you’ll enthuse about and return to?

5. WANDERERS CONNECTIONS: A popular one, this, and I can’t deny that it helps, but I’d place it at the bottom.

So, for Warnock:

DIVISIONAL EXPERIENCE: Hasn’t managed in this division since the last millennium. That was the first half of 1999/2000 at Bury (after he’d taken them down - the second club in three years he’d relegated): with 24pts from 19 games and a 26% win ratio, they were in 13th when he jumped ship for a club he liked more.

EMPIRE-BUILDING: Has managed 16 clubs (some more than once) but has only completed a three-season spell twice: at Sheffield United 1999-2007 and Burton Albion 1981-86. Has made it known publicly that his continued involvement in the game understandably depends upon his wife’s cancer.

WORKING TO BUDGET: Has worked on tight budgets and has promoted youth but has also signed a lot of players, usually Paddy Kenny.

FAN EXCITEMENT: Would please fans who crave a reliable wise head. Not renowned for beautiful football, so he’d have to win: Bolton fans haven’t always tolerated "functional football", even when we were top-eight in the nation.

WANDERERS CONNECTIONS: None. Yorkshireman. Managed Bury.

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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by Andy Waller » Fri May 13, 2016 10:37 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
plymouth wanderer wrote:IMO, getting the right manager in is more important than getting players in! I'd spend every last penny and break out every promise in the book to get Warnock installed!
Game of opinions and all that, but to me Warnock is almost exactly wrong for us.

The way I see it, when hiring our next manager there's a few boxes we have to tick; some are more important than others, to the extent that we might not have to tick them all, but this is the checklist (in approximate order of importance) I go through in my head when names are mentioned.

1. DIVISIONAL EXPERIENCE: How well does he know the Third and Fourth Divisions? Players to sign, players to beware, suitable tactics for certain opponents: in many ways we’re going into the unknown, so the last thing we need is a newbie. It would help if the manager had taken clubs out of this division before.

2. EMPIRE-BUILDING: Although there is a short-term need to arrest the decline, IMO we don’t need a firefighter, we need an empire-builder. I want someone who’ll be here for at least three seasons, not just relying on hired hands but developing the academy graduation, scouting network, the club’s standing in the community. Employment longevity isn’t always an entirely accurate barometer of development but it shows that the board think the guy’s doing something right.

3. WORKING TO BUDGET: Can he find a player cheap? Can he develop kids into regulars? Can he use the loan system savvily without depending on it for everything?

4. FAN EXCITEMENT: I get the feeling the first couple of months of next season will be vital in establishing momentum and maintaining attendance. An inspiring new manager, whom the public believed could turn this club round, would help. “Excitement” is perhaps a slippery concept – Coyle and Lennon were welcomed – but we really don’t want to hire someone who makes shoulders shrug. This isn’t just upon his appointment but when fans see his team play: is it the sort of attractive football you’ll enthuse about and return to?

5. WANDERERS CONNECTIONS: A popular one, this, and I can’t deny that it helps, but I’d place it at the bottom.

So, for Warnock:

DIVISIONAL EXPERIENCE: Hasn’t managed in this division since the last millennium. That was the first half of 1999/2000 at Bury (after he’d taken them down - the second club in three years he’d relegated): with 24pts from 19 games and a 26% win ratio, they were in 13th when he jumped ship for a club he liked more.

EMPIRE-BUILDING: Has managed 16 clubs (some more than once) but has only completed a three-season spell twice: at Sheffield United 1999-2007 and Burton Albion 1981-86. Has made it known publicly that his continued involvement in the game understandably depends upon his wife’s cancer.

WORKING TO BUDGET: Has worked on tight budgets and has promoted youth but has also signed a lot of players, usually Paddy Kenny.

FAN EXCITEMENT: Would please fans who crave a reliable wise head. Not renowned for beautiful football, so he’d have to win: Bolton fans haven’t always tolerated "functional football", even when we were top-eight in the nation.

WANDERERS CONNECTIONS: None. Yorkshireman. Managed Bury.
I heard Warnock interviewed on Talksport not long ago. He was talking about his current position, he said he had had plenty of offers from Championship clubs and enjoyed managing at that level. His wife was very happy with the situation at Rotherham (she'd been very ill and the club/fans had been very supportive.)

I think they'd be stupid not to offer him a new contract and if they didn't, we won't be the best offer he gets by a long shot...
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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by Bruce Rioja » Fri May 13, 2016 10:55 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:Game of opinions and all that
1. DIVISIONAL EXPERIENCE
In what capacity though? A managerial one?

Caldwell at Wigan's won the league, Hasselbaink got Burton to a position whereby Clough just needed to get them over the line as it were. Millado at Walsall's a physio by trade and Neil Harris has got the violent, loutish c*nts of SE16 into 4th.
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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 13, 2016 11:14 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:Game of opinions and all that
1. DIVISIONAL EXPERIENCE
In what capacity though? A managerial one?

Caldwell at Wigan's won the league, Hasselbaink got Burton to a position whereby Clough just needed to get them over the line as it were. Millado at Walsall's a physio by trade and Neil Harris has got the violent, loutish c*nts of SE16 into 4th.
I do think our situation is entirely different to that of Wigan's. Their budget was just way ahead of everything else in that division.

We have bigger problems and it might be too much for someone without experience to handle. The trouble with inexperience is that you're almost just playing a game of lucky dip. Impressive people can often not work out as football managers for whatever reason.

Who would you suggest if we went down the route of inexperience?

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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri May 13, 2016 11:49 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:Game of opinions and all that
1. DIVISIONAL EXPERIENCE
In what capacity though? A managerial one?

Caldwell at Wigan's won the league, Hasselbaink got Burton to a position whereby Clough just needed to get them over the line as it were. Millado at Walsall's a physio by trade and Neil Harris has got the violent, loutish c*nts of SE16 into 4th.
Aye, I recall pointing out their youthfulness on another occasion I was naysaying Warnock :D

That said, I'm not sure any of the four you mentioned are comparable to our situation. Wigan went down but as BWFCi notes, Caldwell’s got twice the budget of the rest of the division; Burton have been a well-run club for a decade with a succession of good managers; the Walsall chap is a caretaker continuing the work of his former gaffer Dean Smith, who was there for just shy of five years (the league's fourth-longest-serving manager); Millwall might be a closer comparison, although they've been buying players from the lower leagues for years and Harris is certainly no newbie. I note you stopped shy of Bradford and Phil Parkinson :D

I guess what I'm saying is that I think it would be a mistake to parachute somebody down the divisions who has no recent relevant experience - a Garry Monk, Roberto Martinez, Pep Guardiola, Neil Warnock even. Last year's three promoted managers (Cotterill at Bristol, Robinson at MK Dons, Grayson at Preston) all knew the division well. So did the three the previous year (Jackett at Wolves, Smith at Brentford, Evans at Rotherham) and the year before that (Donny's Paul Dickov, Bournemouth's Eddie Howe, Yeovil's Gary Johnson). I have a strong feeling this year of relative inexperience will be an anomaly.

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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by Bruce Rioja » Fri May 13, 2016 12:11 pm

I purposely stopped short of Bradford :D

Actually, if we are to go down the route of experience then I believe that we could do a lot worse than Parkinson. If we were to go down the route of appointing a newbie then I'd certainly be interviewing SKD at the very least.

I see that Flores is leaving Watford (not that he'll be coming here, like) but has he jumped or been pushed, do we know?
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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by wigan white » Fri May 13, 2016 12:19 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:I purposely stopped short of Bradford :D

Actually, if we are to go down the route of experience then I believe that we could do a lot worse than Parkinson. If we were to go down the route of appointing a newbie then I'd certainly be interviewing SKD at the very least.

I see that Flores is leaving Watford (not that he'll be coming here, like) but has he jumped or been pushed, do we know?
Flores has said today that the Watford board thought that this season had been a success, but he didn't and that the varying views as to what Watford should be achieving are too different for him to continue his contract with them. I think he has expectations a little too high for a first season in the Prem, whereas the board are happy just not to be relegated. Although maybe he's just looking for an excuse to leave (he maybe terrified of being bummed by Elton).

On a different note, I've heard that "Giggs" maybe being lined up as our next manager and that's why he's not been appointed yet as he's still working with United. A few mates are Red-scum die-hards and the said "word" is that Mourinho will come in the summer but the board see Giggs as "Long term" but want him to get some "proper" managerial experience before he eventually replaces Jose. - Not sure how true this is though.
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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 13, 2016 12:23 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:I purposely stopped short of Bradford :D

Actually, if we are to go down the route of experience then I believe that we could do a lot worse than Parkinson. If we were to go down the route of appointing a newbie then I'd certainly be interviewing SKD at the very least.

I see that Flores is leaving Watford (not that he'll be coming here, like) but has he jumped or been pushed, do we know?
Davies has the exams for his badges later this summer and hasn't decided if he wants to go into management yet.

But here's the thing. He was a fantastic player for us. A superb leader by example on the pitch. But I've not picked up on one ounce of anything that would suggest he has managerial qualities. That isn't to say he hasn't, but it would be absolutely as random as appointing any former player to be manager and hoping for the best, IMO.

Kevin Nolan would be more of a candidate on that basis imo, and I don't want him!

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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri May 13, 2016 12:30 pm

wigan white wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:I see that Flores is leaving Watford (not that he'll be coming here, like) but has he jumped or been pushed, do we know?
Flores has said today that the Watford board thought that this season had been a success, but he didn't and that the varying views as to what Watford should be achieving are too different for him to continue his contract with them. I think he has expectations a little too high for a first season in the Prem, whereas the board are happy just not to be relegated.
I reckon it's the other way round, mate – that board are bonkers. You might be right but I'm remembering how they went through four managers last season then didn't renew the contract of the guy who got them up. Stability is not a forte.
wigan white wrote:On a different note, I've heard that "Giggs" maybe being lined up as our next manager and that's why he's not been appointed yet as he's still working with United. A few mates are Red-scum die-hards and the said "word" is that Mourinho will come in the summer but the board see Giggs as "Long term" but want him to get some "proper" managerial experience before he eventually replaces Jose. - Not sure how true this is though.
Yeah, I've seen that rumour floating round, fuelled by rampant speculation upon the unsourced word "coup". I would be very very surprised indeed if Giggs took a job at a third-tier club: it's not exactly preparation for handling "your Rooneys". (Also notable that Mourinho's agent Jorge Mendes, who more or less runs top-level football, is also the agent of Renato Sanches - the new Bayern signing United had chased for six months. Could it be Jose isn't going to Old Trafford after all? Or is Mendes flexing his muscles?)

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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri May 13, 2016 12:33 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:[quote="Bruce Rioja"If we were to go down the route of appointing a newbie then I'd certainly be interviewing SKD at the very least.
Davies has the exams for his badges later this summer and hasn't decided if he wants to go into management yet.

But here's the thing. He was a fantastic player for us. A superb leader by example on the pitch. But I've not picked up on one ounce of anything that would suggest he has managerial qualities. That isn't to say he hasn't, but it would be absolutely as random as appointing any former player to be manager and hoping for the best, IMO.

Kevin Nolan would be more of a candidate on that basis imo, and I don't want him![/quote]Note that Bruce's post is a conditional "if..."

SKD would get fans' goodwill (as did Bryan Gunn at Norwich, etc etc) but judging by his comments on the BN today he's fairly non-committal on management full-stop – hardly "I'd walk there to take the job", and he only lives over the hill...
...He remains undecided whether management, and its merciless trappings, is really for him but wants to make a reasoned decision.

“I don't think it's as simple as going from playing to coaching or managing,” he said. “I want to try and educate myself within a club as a one or two and get that experience and knowhow. Management is a possibility. I'm not 100 per cent sure on it yet because it's pretty ruthless. The stats aren't great but I'm the type of guy that when I commit to something, I give it my all.

“I've got a young family I would like to see a lot of, and if I go down that route I may not do. It's something I'm considering. Whether it's with a football club or maybe something I do independently with myself because I enjoy that charity side of it, it's very rewarding. People keep asking, I'm not 100 per cent sure.”

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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 13, 2016 12:51 pm

As an interesting aside, what sort of qualities would people look for in a football manager? Beyond the requisite, skills, knowledge and experience stuff?

For me I want someone with a real drive, an intensity about them, someone who takes the responsibility on their own shoulders and drives the players through that. Someone who has a big character and is able to drag the players behind them through that and good man-management.

I don't care much what level they've played at, it is all about burning desire and intensity to drive the club forwards and someone who would focus on what they can do, and analyse that, rather than what they can't.

I think generally they need an arrogance about them, but coupled with charisma, and a bit of a swagger about them. They have to embrace new developments rather than sticking always to the tried and trusted.

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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by wigan white » Fri May 13, 2016 2:46 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
wigan white wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:I see that Flores is leaving Watford (not that he'll be coming here, like) but has he jumped or been pushed, do we know?
Flores has said today that the Watford board thought that this season had been a success, but he didn't and that the varying views as to what Watford should be achieving are too different for him to continue his contract with them. I think he has expectations a little too high for a first season in the Prem, whereas the board are happy just not to be relegated.
I reckon it's the other way round, mate – that board are bonkers. You might be right but I'm remembering how they went through four managers last season then didn't renew the contract of the guy who got them up. Stability is not a forte.
wigan white wrote:On a different note, I've heard that "Giggs" maybe being lined up as our next manager and that's why he's not been appointed yet as he's still working with United. A few mates are Red-scum die-hards and the said "word" is that Mourinho will come in the summer but the board see Giggs as "Long term" but want him to get some "proper" managerial experience before he eventually replaces Jose. - Not sure how true this is though.
Yeah, I've seen that rumour floating round, fuelled by rampant speculation upon the unsourced word "coup". I would be very very surprised indeed if Giggs took a job at a third-tier club: it's not exactly preparation for handling "your Rooneys". (Also notable that Mourinho's agent Jorge Mendes, who more or less runs top-level football, is also the agent of Renato Sanches - the new Bayern signing United had chased for six months. Could it be Jose isn't going to Old Trafford after all? Or is Mendes flexing his muscles?)
You could be right, I may have mis-understood what Flores meant.

In regards to Sanches going to Munich, apparently Ancellotti has been after Munich signing him for a while. So could just be that or as indeed you say, Mourinho may not be going to Utd after all.
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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by Worthy4England » Fri May 13, 2016 2:53 pm

I have only one quality, I'm looking for in a football manager. Ability to get points on the board.

I don't particularly care whether they do that by putting an arm round players, running them up Winter Hill or throwing teacups at their heads...

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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by CrazyHorse » Fri May 13, 2016 2:58 pm

Someone, anyone who just knows what the fck they're doing.
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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 13, 2016 3:04 pm

Worthy4England wrote:I have only one quality, I'm looking for in a football manager. Ability to get points on the board.

I don't particularly care whether they do that by putting an arm round players, running them up Winter Hill or throwing teacups at their heads...
But that is the point. You're not in a position to know if they'll get the points before hiring. So it was more, what would you look for - especially if hiring one without experience or track-record to draw on.

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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri May 13, 2016 3:06 pm

As we've got nowt better to do, I'd be intrigued to hear other posters' checklists – and what they see as most important.

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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by thebish » Fri May 13, 2016 3:25 pm

ok - I'll have a stab...

1) knowledge of the lower leagues - a track record of success
2) canny in the transfer market - good at spotting cheap talent - wide contacts - or a good scout he can bring with him
3) known for drilling limited players to into a system that gets the best out of them - everyone knows their job - rather than trying to mould players into a manager-favoured system regardless of their talents - let the system suit the players don't try to make unsuitable players suit the system..
4) stickability - someone who wants to see the thing right through
5) hard-nosed grittiness
6) someone who isn't annoying in post match interviews
7) someone without an irritating face (but who has a face - just to be clear!)
8) suit rather than track-suit

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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 13, 2016 4:04 pm

Also I'd personally avoid anyone who makes a point of talking about 'good football' 'playing in the right way' 'projects' 'philosophies'....

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Re: Which muppet can we appoint next?

Post by Prufrock » Fri May 13, 2016 4:49 pm

1) Brains – someone who is going to come in with a plan as to how we can get the best of what we’ve got. Not just turn up and do the same things as everyone else and hope it comes off for us this year. Job one would be dusting off all the jazzy sports science stuff we’ve taken out of Euxton before letting that lot have it. How can we be fitter, have fewer injuries (and so get away with a smaller squad with a greater concentration of talent) get the players’ minds in the right place.
2) Can spot a player. This is where “knowledge of the division(s) counts”. It’s the same game, give or take, division to division, so I’m not sure that we need someone who has specifically worked or played at League 1 level. We do need someone who has a good grasp of the lower-league players we can attract. The talent is there, can we find the right ones?
3) A winner. No more excuses, no feeling sorry for ourselves. Someone who can get a core group committed to one another who push each other to always improve.
4) Get rid of Darren Pratley (if not implicit in 1, 2 and 3).
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