Plan B

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Plan B

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:31 am

The diamond 4-4-2 has worked well so far. And by "well" I mean "top of the league". But we will face many different challenges this season, and sparked by Andy's comment on the Fleetwood thread, I thought it might be worth a thread of its own.

It might seem slightly odd to be discussing changes of formation and personnel when we're 100%, but we have to prepare a Plan B for when teams come to spoil our fun. I'm confident Parky will do, I just wonder what you think it might be...
Andy Waller wrote:The game changed when Clough went off to be fair.

Woolery offers much more at this level. I think Clough is a good player, just maybe better suited to a better quality of football.

They looked scared of Woolery and a we seemed to make inroads further up the pitch because they were scared of him getting in behind.
You're very right that Woolery's pace offers us something lacking in any combination of Proctor/Madine/Clough/Wilkinson. It's possible to get Woolery and Clough *both* involved, but it does mean losing a central midfielder or two. If Parky's not happy with the idea of those two up top 'alone' (possibly/probably as split strikers with Zach behind Kaiyne), then I'd be tempted to play a 4-2-3-1 with Zach behind Proctor and Kaiyne on the right.

On the "left" could be Mark Davies in a drifting role - he set up our first at Wimbledon from that side, and drifted in from that flank to feed Vela for the opener at Bristol. That would leave two central midfielders from three (Spearing, Vela and Trotter) and at the moment I'd say Josh has the edge on Yaya. That said, PP could encourage Sparky to drop back in when we don't have the ball.

(and that's without possible loan wingers, or indeed Chris Taylor)

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Re: Plan B

Post by Andy Waller » Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:56 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:The diamond 4-4-2 has worked well so far. And by "well" I mean "top of the league". But we will face many different challenges this season, and sparked by Andy's comment on the Fleetwood thread, I thought it might be worth a thread of its own.

It might seem slightly odd to be discussing changes of formation and personnel when we're 100%, but we have to prepare a Plan B for when teams come to spoil our fun. I'm confident Parky will do, I just wonder what you think it might be...
Andy Waller wrote:The game changed when Clough went off to be fair.

Woolery offers much more at this level. I think Clough is a good player, just maybe better suited to a better quality of football.

They looked scared of Woolery and a we seemed to make inroads further up the pitch because they were scared of him getting in behind.
You're very right that Woolery's pace offers us something lacking in any combination of Proctor/Madine/Clough/Wilkinson. It's possible to get Woolery and Clough *both* involved, but it does mean losing a central midfielder or two. If Parky's not happy with the idea of those two up top 'alone' (possibly/probably as split strikers with Zach behind Kaiyne), then I'd be tempted to play a 4-2-3-1 with Zach behind Proctor and Kaiyne on the right.

On the "left" could be Mark Davies in a drifting role - he set up our first at Wimbledon from that side, and drifted in from that flank to feed Vela for the opener at Bristol. That would leave two central midfielders from three (Spearing, Vela and Trotter) and at the moment I'd say Josh has the edge on Yaya. That said, PP could encourage Sparky to drop back in when we don't have the ball.

(and that's without possible loan wingers, or indeed Chris Taylor)
The problem on Saturday was that Vela drifted right, which was great, because he gave an overlap to Buxton (who put some great crosses in) but Davies also drifted right, which took him centrally. For all that i don't think Moxey is much cop, he really wasn't helped by not having an "out" ball from defence.

We need someone really who's left footed to play in that role.
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Re: Plan B

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:00 am

We didn't play a 4-4-2 diamond against Sheffield Utd.

Personally I think we need someone who can play wide, either in a front 3 or a 4.

There are times we'll need to stretch teams especially at home.

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Re: Plan B

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:29 am

bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:If we don't manage to add to the squad, the current formation with Proctor and Woolery, and/or Clough as the forward point of the diamond presents very different looking forward threats than a Madine/Proctor/Mavies based attack? So maybe we have options within the current set up?

Apart from that though I agree with BWFCI in that we need a fast winger for a lot of alternative formations to work. I guess with Wilson and Taylor or even Moxey we could play wing backs and a back three if that was felt to match up better against certain opponents?
Wouldn't necessarily need to switch to Wilson – Buxton crosses well and I've been impressed with his link-up play. The bigger problem might be finding the third centre-back...

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Re: Plan B

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:32 am

Ah my post did end up being referenced here!! I was thinking Buxton as third CH, on the basis that he is older and more defensive and has the height to play there and has done so in his career, and Wilson is a more of an attacking up and down type right back, though he has had a high percentage of below par games when he has played. I guess Vela could play there...

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Re: Plan B

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:32 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:If we don't manage to add to the squad, the current formation with Proctor and Woolery, and/or Clough as the forward point of the diamond presents very different looking forward threats than a Madine/Proctor/Mavies based attack? So maybe we have options within the current set up?

Apart from that though I agree with BWFCI in that we need a fast winger for a lot of alternative formations to work. I guess with Wilson and Taylor or even Moxey we could play wing backs and a back three if that was felt to match up better against certain opponents?
Wouldn't necessarily need to switch to Wilson – Buxton crosses well and I've been impressed with his link-up play. The bigger problem might be finding the third centre-back...
Buxton is never in a million years a wing back. Lad gets a nosebleed crossing the half way line. Very solid, and very dependable and has a decent cross from deep on him but going forward he isn't very good in general.

IF we ever played 3 at the back, Buxton would be a CB in my view. Though I hope we never do.

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Re: Plan B

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:35 am

bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:Ah my post did end up being referenced here!!
Seemed natural :D
bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:I was thinking Buxton as third CH, on the basis that he is older and more defensive and has the height to play there and has done so in his career, and Wilson is a more of an attacking up and down type right back, though he has had a high percentage of below par games when he has played. I guess Vela could play there...
Agre that Buxton could play on the right of a back three - indeed I've read some Wednesday fans saying that's his best position. Parky seems insistent that Vela's a midfielder but then I suppose right wing-back is essentially a midfielder.

A back three is an intriguing option and it wouldn't surprise me if Parky went for it at some stage, because he strikes me as a tactical thinker. If we don't get the wide-attack reinforcements he desires, it's a way of getting width without leaving gaps at the back, which I'm guessing is a Parky no-no.

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Re: Plan B

Post by Beefheart » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:09 am

Trotters already obvious lack of mobility is made even more apparent when playing on the left of that diamond. I guess Pratley might have been there ahead of him if fit. Hopefully we get a couple more wide players in before the transfer window closes.

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Re: Plan B

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:14 am

A comment based purely on a generality, but our defence seems to be a real factor in winning the games we have so far with David Wheater having an Indian summer of resurgence. Too many games last season got lost from last minute or soft goals given away under pressure. If I were an opposition manager I'd certainly know that one of Bolton's achilles heels is the ability to be suspect in the last quarter, particularly when ahead.The other has been a glaring inability at the other end to capitalise on chances (yes Mr Machine, you're in that club) . A lot of talk here is about midfiled, but games are decided at one end or the other and both attack and defence decide where the points go in the end. Keep the defence tight and take the pressure off it by attack rather than just talking midfield. Not having seen much live stuff for a while, could Zac Clough not be used in a playmaker role? A man who wants the ball and is available to recieve it is where a lot of teams excel. I'm all for Fortress Macron but the old adage "It's goals that count" has always been the decider.

Note; a comment that asks questions rather than making statements, as radio football is a very specialised sport.. :wink:
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Re: Plan B

Post by boltonboris » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:15 am

Beefheart wrote:Trotters already obvious lack of mobility is made even more apparent when playing on the left of that diamond. I guess Pratley might have been there ahead of him if fit. Hopefully we get a couple more wide players in before the transfer window closes.
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Re: Plan B

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:25 am

TANGODANCER wrote:If I were an opposition manager I'd certainly know that one of Bolton's achilles heels is the ability to be suspect in the last quarter, particularly when ahead.
Know what you mean mate but I genuinely think that's a problem from last season not this. I'm sure at some point we'll concede a late goal and shake impotent fists at the sky, but it doesn't seem to be the inevitability it was last season. At Rovers on Wednesday, stood with thebish and another long-serving sufferer watching us defend a one-goal lead for half an hour, we noticed how we felt different - slightly nervous, for sure, but not terrified or miserable. Not quite 'confident', perhaps, but considerably more confident than for many a moon.

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Re: Plan B

Post by Andy Waller » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:29 am

boltonboris wrote:
Beefheart wrote:Trotters already obvious lack of mobility is made even more apparent when playing on the left of that diamond. I guess Pratley might have been there ahead of him if fit. Hopefully we get a couple more wide players in before the transfer window closes.
Anderson's son is saying on twitter that we'll have a striker and winger in by end of the week
Or it might be a stroker and a whinger with our finances...
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Re: Plan B

Post by thebish » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:52 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote:If I were an opposition manager I'd certainly know that one of Bolton's achilles heels is the ability to be suspect in the last quarter, particularly when ahead.
Know what you mean mate but I genuinely think that's a problem from last season not this. I'm sure at some point we'll concede a late goal and shake impotent fists at the sky, but it doesn't seem to be the inevitability it was last season. At Rovers on Wednesday, stood with thebish and another long-serving sufferer watching us defend a one-goal lead for half an hour, we noticed how we felt different - slightly nervous, for sure, but not terrified or miserable. Not quite 'confident', perhaps, but considerably more confident than for many a moon.

on the strength of THIS season - we seem a bit more vulnerable in the FIRST quarter than the last.. but - small margins.
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Re: Plan B

Post by Prufrock » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:57 am

We defo need a winger. Not sure about another striker being ahead of another centre-half. We're relying heavily on Wheater not getting injured which...you know...
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Re: Plan B

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:16 pm

Prufrock wrote:We defo need a winger. Not sure about another striker being ahead of another centre-half. We're relying heavily on Wheater not getting injured which...you know...
Both equally important imo. With Clough and Clayton out we look light up top, especially if Proctor continues to nurse this long term hamstring niggle.

And as you say, Wheater needs cover.

Both positions need looking at. I'd say though that the right forward improves the team whereas a CB is likely to just be backup currently.

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Re: Plan B

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:24 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:Both positions need looking at. I'd say though that the right forward improves the team whereas a CB is likely to just be backup currently.
That's very true, although we'd be unlucky if Proctor, Clough and Clayton all continue to be injury-niggled.

Also got Dervite (I know, but he might be better under Parky's relentless drilling) and Buxton could play CB.

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Re: Plan B

Post by bobo the clown » Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:42 pm

Moxey is a conundrum. He's a talented enough player, imho, but has that defender's nightmare of having an error a game in him.

Is there a midfielder in there waiting to be discovered ?
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Re: Plan B

Post by boltonboris » Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:43 pm

I've not totally lost faith in Dervite - I'm sure an organiser ca get something out of him
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Re: Plan B

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:46 pm

boltonboris wrote:I've not totally lost faith in Dervite - I'm sure an organiser ca get something out of him
Certainly worth seeing what Parky and his coaching team can get out of him. He looked good when Lennon arrived initially with Mills. Mjallby coaching perhaps?

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Re: Plan B

Post by Andy Waller » Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:47 pm

bobo the clown wrote:Moxey is a conundrum. He's a talented enough player, imho, but has that defender's nightmare of having an error a game in him.

Is there a midfielder in there waiting to be discovered ?
I thought he looked ok on the wing when he played there last season.
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