Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports 1)

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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by Prufrock » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:32 pm

Think folk are being generous to Madine*. He was better today in the sense he looked vaguely worth a shirt and did the running (we're not talking about SKD dragging a team along work here though are we? We're talking a bare minimum lone striker shift). You fanny around for 18 months then do the bare minimum and get credit? Not for me. Still looked about as much use as a chocolate fireguard when it came to scoring. He's got all the attributes, if he concentrated on trying to play instead of falling on his arse whining at the ref he might get a bit more leeway for looking about as likely as a very unlikely thing.



*albeit granted the ugly stuff he's getting credited for isn't always obvious on the tv
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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by Armchair Wanderer » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:12 am

Clough could have had 4, and Proctor should have scored.. could have been 5-0!

Always liked Danns... what a pass!

What the pundits were saying about Madine pressing high up the pitch, then the team getting behind the ball and pressing deeper down the pitch wasn't that visible to me on TV but it sounds like a smart way of playing.

My first time seeing some of these players. I was surprised at how many we still have that were available last season.
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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by plymouth wanderer » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:28 am

Also, Howard's distribution is the best I've seen from a Bolton keeper!
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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by jetsetwilly » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:22 am

Credit to PP. To get this work rate out if players who were strolling against Rochdale is something. After the game Wheater said the team expected to win every game and got lazy. PP seems to have knocked this billy big bollocks out of them. Oh and dropped Trotter. Still can't score from open play which is a worry but feel far happier than this time last month

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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by Peter Thompson » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:52 am

Very good performance in terms of how solid we where at the back and it could / should have been 3 or 4, and the pressing & work rate from all was excellent especially Vela who is playing much better in this position.

Howard, Beevers, Wheater, A Taylor, Clough excellent - with regards to Madine, he worked hard & closed them down but he lacks quality and never looks like scoring but he's a very limited player & that miss from Procter near the end was shocking.

We still need to improve a lot in terms of movement & the quality of our passing going forward....but that was a fantastic result and the work rate from every player for the full 90 mins was commendable.

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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:13 am

With Madine he is a limited footballer. But in this system we need a target up front and he provided that last night. He won headers and held it up. It isn't like he missed loads of chances either. Does a job for the team like Davies used to. I'm happy with that in this system. Three behind him must get the goals.

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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:45 am

Prufrock wrote:Think folk are being generous to Madine*. He was better today in the sense he looked vaguely worth a shirt and did the running (we're not talking about SKD dragging a team along work here though are we? We're talking a bare minimum lone striker shift). You fanny around for 18 months then do the bare minimum and get credit? Not for me. Still looked about as much use as a chocolate fireguard when it came to scoring. He's got all the attributes, if he concentrated on trying to play instead of falling on his arse whining at the ref he might get a bit more leeway for looking about as likely as a very unlikely thing.



*albeit granted the ugly stuff he's getting credited for isn't always obvious on the tv
I think you're right - he seems to be gaining status in some quarters for managing to put his shirt on the right way around. I think last night was a decent team display - as JSW says (and by most accounts) chalk and cheese different than the game against Rochdale. Sure Derik put a couple of stray ones in, Proctor missed a gimme, two goal hero Clough smacked one square in the middle of Maher's head (or Mayer's if you read Sky report) when there was little but space either side, Ameobi hit the corner flag with one, Wilson looked as headless as he generally does.

I'm struggling to recall a Madine gaffe, therefore he must've been brilliant. Errr no. He didn't have a shot.

The problem we have is that people are comparing Madine to Proctor, Ameobi (who I thought was good last night), Anderson etc. - his Opta stats are generally better than all of them although I think Ameobi is improving - and coming to the conclusion that he must be pretty good and therefore the best we can do. Compare him to the currently firing Josh Morris and there's a bit of a gap from Opta...

Touches per game - Madine 3.7, Morris 11.1
Duel Success - Madine 43%, Morris 63%
Fouls won - Madine 16, Morris 32 (in fairness Morris has played 500 minutes longer)
Goals - Madine 3, Morris 13
Attempts - Madine 16, Morris 42
Conversion Rate - Madine 21%, Morris 37%
Shot Accuracy - Madine 36%, Morris 60%
Assists - Madine 1, Morris 5
Successful open play crosses - Madine 2, Morris 19
Chances Created - Madine 1, Morris 5

We might only be able to afford graft and no goals rather than goals and no graft - but it shouldn't stop us looking. Coz Madine isn't all that and a bag of chips all of a sudden (albeit whilst we're on a winning run, I probably wouldn't change it much :-) )

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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:12 am

Worthy4England wrote:
I think you're right - he seems to be gaining status in some quarters for managing to put his shirt on the right way around. I think last night was a decent team display - as JSW says (and by most accounts) chalk and cheese different than the game against Rochdale. Sure Derik put a couple of stray ones in, Proctor missed a gimme, two goal hero Clough smacked one square in the middle of Maher's head (or Mayer's if you read Sky report) when there was little but space either side, Ameobi hit the corner flag with one, Wilson looked as headless as he generally does.

I'm struggling to recall a Madine gaffe, therefore he must've been brilliant. Errr no. He didn't have a shot.

The problem we have is that people are comparing Madine to Proctor, Ameobi (who I thought was good last night), Anderson etc. - his Opta stats are generally better than all of them although I think Ameobi is improving - and coming to the conclusion that he must be pretty good and therefore the best we can do. Compare him to the currently firing Josh Morris and there's a bit of a gap from Opta...

Touches per game - Madine 3.7, Morris 11.1
Duel Success - Madine 43%, Morris 63%
Fouls won - Madine 16, Morris 32 (in fairness Morris has played 500 minutes longer)
Goals - Madine 3, Morris 13
Attempts - Madine 16, Morris 42
Conversion Rate - Madine 21%, Morris 37%
Shot Accuracy - Madine 36%, Morris 60%
Assists - Madine 1, Morris 5
Successful open play crosses - Madine 2, Morris 19
Chances Created - Madine 1, Morris 5

We might only be able to afford graft and no goals rather than goals and no graft - but it shouldn't stop us looking. Coz Madine isn't all that and a bag of chips all of a sudden (albeit whilst we're on a winning run, I probably wouldn't change it much :-) )
To be fair people aren't saying Madine is great. They are saying he's doing the job asked of him. Which is work damn hard and lead the line to let the likes of Clough and Ameobi produce something. We aren't exactly supplying Madine with chances in this system.

If all you are going to judge him on is goals, then fine, but personally I watched a player who was never prolific play a lot of seasons up front alone, for us in the top flight not that long ago who became absolutely irreplaceable.

Clearly Madine isn't at that level, but he's doing a poor man's version at least, rather than offering nothing as before. But like DSB says, finding a striker to play up on his own in this system with the necessary workrate and 20 goals in him may be a stretch for a club in embargo still. Probably a stretch for anyone really. I mean all we need is a big lump who is mobile, can hold it up, win headers oh and has 20 goals in him. Few and far between them types.

If Madine leads the line and the goals come from behind him, which really in my view is how we're setting up, then great.

It isn't a black and white thing. He clearly has major flaws but at the same time did a far better job than Bury's strikers last night. Vaughan for example, scores goals and is useful, but up on his own offered nowt. Whereas Madine was a focal point for the attack and battered the Bury centre halves physically. I know who I'd back to score more, but I also know that Madine offers us more for how we play than Vaughan would and would be in ahead of him for that reason.

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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by TANGODANCER » Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:46 am

Nice feeling to wake up to positives. Second in the league is something to defend now and let the rest worry about us for a change. The point's been made by several people, but scoring from open play needs work, mainly putting away the chances we create. The fact that nobody has scored against us in five games ( that we win mainly by an odd goal) gives a clue that others are paying attention to their defences as well as us and odd goal wins are critical against good defence. Last night's win was down to two spot kicks, but the chances taken could have made it a far bigger score. We're still shy of a Klasnic, Alf, etc. The rest is all positive.
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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by Prufrock » Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:55 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:
I think you're right - he seems to be gaining status in some quarters for managing to put his shirt on the right way around. I think last night was a decent team display - as JSW says (and by most accounts) chalk and cheese different than the game against Rochdale. Sure Derik put a couple of stray ones in, Proctor missed a gimme, two goal hero Clough smacked one square in the middle of Maher's head (or Mayer's if you read Sky report) when there was little but space either side, Ameobi hit the corner flag with one, Wilson looked as headless as he generally does.

I'm struggling to recall a Madine gaffe, therefore he must've been brilliant. Errr no. He didn't have a shot.

The problem we have is that people are comparing Madine to Proctor, Ameobi (who I thought was good last night), Anderson etc. - his Opta stats are generally better than all of them although I think Ameobi is improving - and coming to the conclusion that he must be pretty good and therefore the best we can do. Compare him to the currently firing Josh Morris and there's a bit of a gap from Opta...

Touches per game - Madine 3.7, Morris 11.1
Duel Success - Madine 43%, Morris 63%
Fouls won - Madine 16, Morris 32 (in fairness Morris has played 500 minutes longer)
Goals - Madine 3, Morris 13
Attempts - Madine 16, Morris 42
Conversion Rate - Madine 21%, Morris 37%
Shot Accuracy - Madine 36%, Morris 60%
Assists - Madine 1, Morris 5
Successful open play crosses - Madine 2, Morris 19
Chances Created - Madine 1, Morris 5

We might only be able to afford graft and no goals rather than goals and no graft - but it shouldn't stop us looking. Coz Madine isn't all that and a bag of chips all of a sudden (albeit whilst we're on a winning run, I probably wouldn't change it much :-) )
To be fair people aren't saying Madine is great. They are saying he's doing the job asked of him. Which is work damn hard and lead the line to let the likes of Clough and Ameobi produce something. We aren't exactly supplying Madine with chances in this system.

If all you are going to judge him on is goals, then fine, but personally I watched a player who was never prolific play a lot of seasons up front alone, for us in the top flight not that long ago who became absolutely irreplaceable.

Clearly Madine isn't at that level, but he's doing a poor man's version at least, rather than offering nothing as before. But like DSB says, finding a striker to play up on his own in this system with the necessary workrate and 20 goals in him may be a stretch for a club in embargo still. Probably a stretch for anyone really. I mean all we need is a big lump who is mobile, can hold it up, win headers oh and has 20 goals in him. Few and far between them types.

If Madine leads the line and the goals come from behind him, which really in my view is how we're setting up, then great.

It isn't a black and white thing. He clearly has major flaws but at the same time did a far better job than Bury's strikers last night. Vaughan for example, scores goals and is useful, but up on his own offered nowt. Whereas Madine was a focal point for the attack and battered the Bury centre halves physically. I know who I'd back to score more, but I also know that Madine offers us more for how we play than Vaughan would and would be in ahead of him for that reason.
Well, he offered it last night (which I repeat, is the bare sodding minimum) but he bloody well hasn't for the last 18 months. He was bobbins against Milwall, because he's usually too busy looking to fall over every time a defender goes near him. He might win one free-kick a half like that, but it kills absolutely everything we try to do because it never sticks. Yesterday he stayed on his feet a lot more and ...surprise surprise... suddenly we could play off him. But again, work rate is not enough is it? If workrate is all that's required I'd do it for free (and Proctor would be a Prem player). Staying on his feet is a start, but I didn't see anything yesterday that got him beyond "decent". He won a few knock ons, got it down on his chest and harried their defenders. 7/10 - minimum achieved.

SKD did a lot more than win the odd header. If Madine can put in League 1 equivalent performances to that then I'll forgive him looking about as threatening as an Andrex puppy. He didn't do that yesterday and hasn't ever looked like doing. He also is supposed to be a "goalscorer at this level". What the feck he was doing as Taylor put that cross in I'll never know.
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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:20 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:To be fair people aren't saying Madine is great.
BWFC_Insane wrote:Madine was superb tonight.
:D

You're right - it doesn't say "great"....

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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:41 am

Prufrock wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Well, he offered it last night (which I repeat, is the bare sodding minimum) but he bloody well hasn't for the last 18 months. He was bobbins against Milwall, because he's usually too busy looking to fall over every time a defender goes near him. He might win one free-kick a half like that, but it kills absolutely everything we try to do because it never sticks. Yesterday he stayed on his feet a lot more and ...surprise surprise... suddenly we could play off him. But again, work rate is not enough is it? If workrate is all that's required I'd do it for free (and Proctor would be a Prem player). Staying on his feet is a start, but I didn't see anything yesterday that got him beyond "decent". He won a few knock ons, got it down on his chest and harried their defenders. 7/10 - minimum achieved.

SKD did a lot more than win the odd header. If Madine can put in League 1 equivalent performances to that then I'll forgive him looking about as threatening as an Andrex puppy. He didn't do that yesterday and hasn't ever looked like doing. He also is supposed to be a "goalscorer at this level". What the feck he was doing as Taylor put that cross in I'll never know.
The majority of our players offered square root of feck all last season. Not just Madine.

This season when I've seen him play, Madine has always grafted his bollocks off. So I can't complain about his application.

At times he doesn't do the right thing on the ball. I agree. And he isn't exactly the most skillful. This is in danger of becoming a binary "Madine good/shit" argument. He's a limited player who last season was nothing short of dreadful. He's now IMO applying himself and grafting for the team, often quite selflessly for a striker. I'd like better but then again I could go through a few names who in an ideal world we'd have better options.

It's a bit like Vela, who is absolutely working his knackers off. But does he really have quality for that sort of attacking midfield role? Not in my book. But he's working and doing his absolute best with the ability he's got. He's not going to score 10 goals a season even playing that role. But is doing a job for the team right now. And I can forgive his poor passing and decision making on the ball at times because he's visibly putting a shift in.

Again that doesn't mean we can't do better, though it might be that we can't with the resources at hand. We've found a way to win currently with these players and I suspect we haven't got owt better behind them.

EDIT: And like you said the test for this team is if we are 0-0 after half an hour or 1-0 down. Because for all the graft and effort, our attacking options are as pointed out not prolific in general and we also don't create a bagful. That is when we look at Vela in that role, Madine/Proctor up front and say that they are too limited. And that will happen. No argument from me there. But hopefully we keep ticking over until we get players back fit and or find better options we can bring in.

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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:49 am

See, I agree with that view. :-)

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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by Andy Waller » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:07 pm

I think we're doing well with what we've got.

I'd have extra shooting practice on for the rest of the week though.

Good God we miss some easy chances.
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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by boltonboris » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:07 pm

5/6 very good goalscoring opportunities away from home, against a team around the playoff spots suggests we can create chances
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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:11 pm

boltonboris wrote:5/6 very good goalscoring opportunities away from home, against a team around the playoff spots suggests we can create chances
I'd say they were the worst team I've seen us face this season. And most of our chances came from turnover of possession. So whilst it was excellent, teams that play us at home aren't going to do that. We create little when teams sit deeper.

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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by boltonboris » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:21 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
boltonboris wrote:5/6 very good goalscoring opportunities away from home, against a team around the playoff spots suggests we can create chances
I'd say they were the worst team I've seen us face this season. And most of our chances came from turnover of possession. So whilst it was excellent, teams that play us at home aren't going to do that. We create little when teams sit deeper.
Good players are starting to find their groove though.. We'll get better
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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by Vertigo » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:21 pm

Couldn't believe my luck. Two Bolton games on the telly? It's not even Christmas yet! Either way, so good to see the boys take the three points. Also, in the two games I've seen, Proctor has missed absolute sitters. Has he been this poor in the rest?

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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by boltonboris » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:24 pm

Vertigo wrote:Couldn't believe my luck. Two Bolton games on the telly? It's not even Christmas yet! Either way, so good to see the boys take the three points. Also, in the two games I've seen, Proctor has missed absolute sitters. Has he been this poor in the rest?
Aside from the first couple of games, yes
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Re: Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:31 pm

boltonboris wrote:
Vertigo wrote:Couldn't believe my luck. Two Bolton games on the telly? It's not even Christmas yet! Either way, so good to see the boys take the three points. Also, in the two games I've seen, Proctor has missed absolute sitters. Has he been this poor in the rest?
Aside from the first couple of games, yes
Needs some confidence. Needs to stop trying quite so hard. I think he will be ok when he does.

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