Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports 1)

[Worthy4England]

Great result. We looked a league above Bury, which will hopefully be the case at the end of the season.

With regard to Madine, I agree with BWFCI, in that he is very limited but is doing a decent job for the team, and is as good as we are likely to get for the time being. If there is one on-field position that reflects the position of a club in the football hierarchy, and capacity to pay significant wages, then striker is it. Those strikers capable of putting in a shift AND scoring 15-20 goals per season are playing at a higher level. Name a striker playing in League1 or 2, or for a smaller club in the championship who is a significant improvement, given our clean sheet focused style of play?

Comparing Madine with Josh Morris, who is a wide player, is ridiculous. Compare Madine with Paddy Madden to get a fairer picture, but even then the team styles are different.

I don't disagree they're different positions. It's this "putting in a shift" bit. Does Morris not "put in a shift"? Paddy Madden scored 20 for Scunny, last season. Does "putting in a shift" mean "don't shoot" as a centre forward?

Madden also takes penalties and plays in a free scoring side. I actually think comparing Scunthorpe with us at all is misleading. They play a different style of football with three mobile smaller quicker players in forward positions, whereas we are set up to defend first and then see if we can create something, often by making use of a punt upfield that Madine has to try and make something of. I am still struggling to know who would be better for us than Madine who we could realistically expect to play for us? I am not suggesting Madine is anything but a limited physical presence, and I am sure there are better out there, but the fact that no one has yet named anyone suggests there are very few.

What's the point? Our style wouldn't suit 'em, they'd be misleading, they wouldn't be able to handle punts - yadda, yadda.

The point I'm making is he's a centre forward. Nothing like in the SKD bracket. There were two very good through balls last night - one from Ameobi and one from Taylor, in the sort of area a decent number 9 might be. Madine was nowhere to be found for either of them. Even with physical limited forwards, I still expect them to get in some positions to shoot and y'know then, shoot.

We are set up to defend first - Wheater has had more attempts than Madine. Yes he's a defender and clearly up for corners. Where the hell is this heading maestro when you need him? Clough plays in the same defensive team - sure in a different role - but he managed to run at folks last night and find some space, Spearing has had more shots (I think - would need to check), in the same defensive team - all of 'em with a higher likelihood of being on target than our erstwhile defensive forward.

The balls were there for Madine last night that weren't 50/50, he just wasn't clued in enough to recognise them.

He doesn't have that much vaunted strikers instinct for being in the right place at the right time, for sure. That is what we mean by limited though isn't it? He works hard, makes something of aimless balls up field, others can feed off his hard work, he puts defenders under pressure and is good for perhaps 10 tap ins or close range headers per season at L1 level. On the other hand, loads of good crosses or passes will go unrewarded because he hasn't got the speed of mind or body to get there, or if he does the touch and intelligence to create something for himself or others. I mean to me Proctor looks a lot better in terms of potential, but he consistently misses chances and perhaps down to lack of confidence rather than ability is less effective than Madine. Isn't this what life in L1 is like? Strikers who for whatever reason just don't deliver what they ought to, and if they do, they are immediately destined for a higher level?

Don't disagree with that particularly. One of the things we noticed first game against Sheffield was that they had three chances in the first 20 mins that there's a fair chance at least two would have been knocked in with a Championship level striker.

So given that, it's difficult to say against Bury he was "add in internet hyperbole word". He didn't look out of place poor, he did ok, didn't miss any gimmies (due to not being there to actually shoot), occupied their CD's occasionally, ran about a bit, wasn't really involved in either goal - can understand the first one - but when Clough goes past him for the second pengy, he's then the third most advanced player we have behind Clough and Vela...He is currently playing better than Proctor, which is hardly a Ballon D'Or nomination.

Having seen him in the Championship, he's definitely not that standard from what he's shown so far. He's barely L1 standard. We should be looking around for that name you're after, if we have higher aspirations beyond this League.

[Andy Waller]

I don't mind Madine, he does a job, but whoever plays up there with him needs to start scoring.

All the sitters I've seen missed recently are between Clough, Proctor and Henry. Plus Vela doesn't look like really scoring which is strange because he seems to have a decent shot on him.

All in all, i think the addition of a good goalscorer would be the difference between automatic promotion and possible play offs.

But we're skint so no chance

[Worthy4England]

I don't mind Madine, he does a job, but whoever plays up there with him needs to start scoring.

All the sitters I've seen missed recently are between Clough, Proctor and Henry. Plus Vela doesn't look like really scoring which is strange because he seems to have a decent shot on him.

All in all, i think the addition of a good goalscorer would be the difference between automatic promotion and possible play offs.

But we're skint so no chance

Think that's where I'm at too AW...

[Andy Waller]

I don't mind Madine, he does a job, but whoever plays up there with him needs to start scoring.

All the sitters I've seen missed recently are between Clough, Proctor and Henry. Plus Vela doesn't look like really scoring which is strange because he seems to have a decent shot on him.

All in all, i think the addition of a good goalscorer would be the difference between automatic promotion and possible play offs.

But we're skint so no chance

Think that's where I'm at too AW...

It's so bloody annoying because, like with Henry's pass to Proctor Vs Bury, the chances are being created through some really good play.

[Prufrock]

Don't disagree with that particularly. One of the things we noticed first game against Sheffield was that they had three chances in the first 20 mins that there's a fair chance at least two would have been knocked in with a Championship level striker.

So given that, it's difficult to say against Bury he was "add in internet hyperbole word". He didn't look out of place poor, he did ok, didn't miss any gimmies (due to not being there to actually shoot), occupied their CD's occasionally, ran about a bit, wasn't really involved in either goal - can understand the first one - but when Clough goes past him for the second pengy, he's then the third most advanced player we have behind Clough and Vela...He is currently playing better than Proctor, which is hardly a Ballon D'Or nomination.

Having seen him in the Championship, he's definitely not that standard from what he's shown so far. He's barely L1 standard. We should be looking around for that name you're after, if we have higher aspirations beyond this League.

Well, quite.

All this "he occupies defenders" "works hard" "is a physical presence". Against Bury, yes. Not for the whole of last season, or the majority of this. I saw him at Milwall where he didn't do it and have read countless match reports from those who have been to other games complaining about him being a mard-arse who falls over whenever a defender comes near and doesn't challenge for the ball.

So for the vast majority of his time here he hasn't actually been any more use than 4'2" dwarf Clough would have been up top on his own. Against Bury, he reached the magical heights of being more use than a child would have been up there. Hoo-ray. Don't get me wrong, on Monday I thought he was worth his place. This is a development, but it doesn't make him Alan Shearer.

[Worthy4England]

Don't disagree with that particularly. One of the things we noticed first game against Sheffield was that they had three chances in the first 20 mins that there's a fair chance at least two would have been knocked in with a Championship level striker.

So given that, it's difficult to say against Bury he was "add in internet hyperbole word". He didn't look out of place poor, he did ok, didn't miss any gimmies (due to not being there to actually shoot), occupied their CD's occasionally, ran about a bit, wasn't really involved in either goal - can understand the first one - but when Clough goes past him for the second pengy, he's then the third most advanced player we have behind Clough and Vela...He is currently playing better than Proctor, which is hardly a Ballon D'Or nomination.

Having seen him in the Championship, he's definitely not that standard from what he's shown so far. He's barely L1 standard. We should be looking around for that name you're after, if we have higher aspirations beyond this League.

Well, quite.

All this "he occupies defenders" "works hard" "is a physical presence". Against Bury, yes. Not for the whole of last season, or the majority of this. I saw him at Milwall where he didn't do it and have read countless match reports from those who have been to other games complaining about him being a mard-arse who falls over whenever a defender comes near and doesn't challenge for the ball.

So for the vast majority of his time here he hasn't actually been any more use than 4'2" dwarf Clough would have been up top on his own. Against Bury, he reached the magical heights of being more use than a child would have been up there. Hoo-ray. Don't get me wrong, on Monday I thought he was worth his place. This is a development, but it doesn't make him Alan Shearer.

Aye, just sign a second row forward...might be a few handballs and the odd sending off, but they'd do the rest a darn sight better.

[BWFC_Insane]

Don't disagree with that particularly. One of the things we noticed first game against Sheffield was that they had three chances in the first 20 mins that there's a fair chance at least two would have been knocked in with a Championship level striker.

So given that, it's difficult to say against Bury he was "add in internet hyperbole word". He didn't look out of place poor, he did ok, didn't miss any gimmies (due to not being there to actually shoot), occupied their CD's occasionally, ran about a bit, wasn't really involved in either goal - can understand the first one - but when Clough goes past him for the second pengy, he's then the third most advanced player we have behind Clough and Vela...He is currently playing better than Proctor, which is hardly a Ballon D'Or nomination.

Having seen him in the Championship, he's definitely not that standard from what he's shown so far. He's barely L1 standard. We should be looking around for that name you're after, if we have higher aspirations beyond this League.

Well, quite.

All this "he occupies defenders" "works hard" "is a physical presence". Against Bury, yes. Not for the whole of last season, or the majority of this. I saw him at Milwall where he didn't do it and have read countless match reports from those who have been to other games complaining about him being a mard-arse who falls over whenever a defender comes near and doesn't challenge for the ball.

So for the vast majority of his time here he hasn't actually been any more use than 4'2" dwarf Clough would have been up top on his own. Against Bury, he reached the magical heights of being more use than a child would have been up there. Hoo-ray. Don't get me wrong, on Monday I thought he was worth his place. This is a development, but it doesn't make him Alan Shearer.

It does make him the best we currently have at doing the required role.

And ultimately that is what matters. I think whenever I've seen him this season, bar Oxford, he's done a decent job up there. Often with very poor service.

[Bruce Rioja]

Don't disagree with that particularly. One of the things we noticed first game against Sheffield was that they had three chances in the first 20 mins that there's a fair chance at least two would have been knocked in with a Championship level striker.

So given that, it's difficult to say against Bury he was "add in internet hyperbole word". He didn't look out of place poor, he did ok, didn't miss any gimmies (due to not being there to actually shoot), occupied their CD's occasionally, ran about a bit, wasn't really involved in either goal - can understand the first one - but when Clough goes past him for the second pengy, he's then the third most advanced player we have behind Clough and Vela...He is currently playing better than Proctor, which is hardly a Ballon D'Or nomination.

Having seen him in the Championship, he's definitely not that standard from what he's shown so far. He's barely L1 standard. We should be looking around for that name you're after, if we have higher aspirations beyond this League.

Well, quite.

All this "he occupies defenders" "works hard" "is a physical presence". Against Bury, yes. Not for the whole of last season, or the majority of this. I saw him at Milwall where he didn't do it and have read countless match reports from those who have been to other games complaining about him being a mard-arse who falls over whenever a defender comes near and doesn't challenge for the ball.

So for the vast majority of his time here he hasn't actually been any more use than 4'2" dwarf Clough would have been up top on his own. Against Bury, he reached the magical heights of being more use than a child would have been up there. Hoo-ray. Don't get me wrong, on Monday I thought he was worth his place. This is a development, but it doesn't make him Alan Shearer.

It does make him the best we currently have at doing the required role.

And ultimately that is what matters. I think whenever I've seen him this season, bar Oxford, he's done a decent job up there. Often with very poor service.

Has he bollocks done anything like a decent job. Further, he's about 6'2", must weigh 90 Kg, has done a stretch for GBH yet still gets knocked off the ball like he's an eight year old girl. fecking hopeless.

[TANGODANCER]

It does make him the best we currently have at doing the required role. And ultimately that is what matters. I think whenever I've seen him this season, bar Oxford, he's done a decent job up there. Often with very poor service.

Service or support? From what little I've seen of him Madine isn't the type to hold the ball, rather flick it on or hold and pass. In that respect one of our big failings for a fair while has been lack of support up front. Kev Davies won everything ariel but all too often ( like most of the time) was left lonelier than Desperate Dan in a Miss World contest. This isn't my imagination, it was commented on here regularly. Mark Davies was capable of carrying the ball directly forward into the opponents box, maybe even Danns, but lately our play seems to have more go-nowhere passes than one of Bolton's "four most wanted" on Mastermind. Clough can do it, maybe Vela, who seems to have grown in confidence lately, can do it, but whanging hopefuls to the big lad up front can be effecctive at times, but certainly not all the time. Personally, I'm hoping Ameobi, who seems useful further back too, can be a fox in the box type. Time will tell. Right now, we haven't a Klasnic in sight.

p.s: Bruce Rioja may not remember this, but I was sat with him behind the goals one game at the Mac/Bok when Ivan Klasnic came haring in from left midfield. You just absolutely knew he was going to bury it...he did. That sort of confidence is something we don't expect much of right now.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I doubt Madine is the best option we've got to fulfil that role. You could stick one of our central defenders up there to get in the way and put a shift in, and the odds of us scoring wouldn't decline. If you're not scoring goals or causing havoc in the oppositions defence on a fairly regular basis then you might as well not bother for me.

[TiesThatBind]

Just on the topic of strikers, I've become a defacto Walsall fan over the last few seasons (hence this) and I think a player who could really suit us is Tom Bradshaw, now of Barnsley but by all accounts not really hitting the heights there.

Not quite a target man (although he played that role a lot), his hold up play is decent, he's got a superb work ethic (to the point where he tends to be absolutely knackered after 70 mins) and most importantly, knows the way to goal. I'm sceptical about whether they'd ship him out on loan, but you never know if he continues to struggle in the Championship.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I've become a defacto Walsall fan over the last few seasons (hence this)

Nice piece. Soooooo, how did you find this season's game?

[BWFC_Insane]

It does make him the best we currently have at doing the required role. And ultimately that is what matters. I think whenever I've seen him this season, bar Oxford, he's done a decent job up there. Often with very poor service.

Service or support? From what little I've seen of him Madine isn't the type to hold the ball, rather flick it on or hold and pass. In that respect one of our big failings for a fair while has been lack of support up front. Kev Davies won everything ariel but all too often ( like most of the time) was left lonelier than Desperate Dan in a Miss World contest. This isn't my imagination, it was commented on here regularly. Mark Davies was capable of carrying the ball directly forward into the opponents box, maybe even Danns, but lately our play seems to have more go-nowhere passes than one of Bolton's "four most wanted" on Mastermind. Clough can do it, maybe Vela, who seems to have grown in confidence lately, can do it, but whanging hopefuls to the big lad up front can be effecctive at times, but certainly not all the time. Personally, I'm hoping Ameobi, who seems useful further back too, can be a fox in the box type. Time will tell. Right now, we haven't a Klasnic in sight.

p.s: Bruce Rioja may not remember this, but I was sat with him behind the goals one game at the Mac/Bok when Ivan Klasnic came haring in from left midfield. You just absolutely knew he was going to bury it...he did. That sort of confidence is something we don't expect much of right now.

Both service and support. It's the modern game. Teams leave strikers up on their own and if they are under pressure that striker has to work for scraps. Seen Costa at Chelsea struggle similarly.

The problem is it becomes rather binary in that Madine is either considered total shite, and if you don't subscribe to that view you are saying he's good.

For me, we need a workhorse up front. You can choose Proctor or Madine. We look a far better side when Madine plays and the points back that up.

I know some will argue about a goalscorer but I still maintain you could stick Super John in his pomp up top and it'd make little difference in this system and the way we setup.

Madine is basically there to chase lost causes. And personally whilst not a fan of his at all last season I think he's done that role of just chasing stuff down well. A thankless task, but he showed on Monday how he works hard as the first line of the press.

[Prufrock]

You did say he was good - "superb" in fact!

This "points back it up" is being hugely overplayed too. I've seen anything from Proctor to suggest he'd be any better, but the slump when Madine was out also coincided with us trying to fit 6 new players into the side and that was certainly a factor and, IMO, the decisive one, rather than us particularly missing Madine.

If he performs regularly as he did on Monday I'll stop considering him #1 needs replacing and think him "worth his spot but I'd like better".

You still have to go down to 20th to find a team that has scored fewer than us. Sure, we're set up to be hard to play against but there's creativity in that side and part of the reason we have scored so rarely is there has not been enough through the middle up top. We've got pace to burn out wide but if your centre-forward is chucking himself about with his arms up for 90 mins you're going to struggle to use it.

[boltonboris]

You did say he was good - "superb" in fact!

This "points back it up" is being hugely overplayed too. I've seen anything from Proctor to suggest he'd be any better, but the slump when Madine was out also coincided with us trying to fit 6 new players into the side and that was certainly a factor and, IMO, the decisive one, rather than us particularly missing Madine.

If he performs regularly as he did on Monday I'll stop considering him #1 needs replacing and think him "worth his spot but I'd like better".

You still have to go down to 20th to find a team that has scored fewer than us. Sure, we're set up to be hard to play against but there's creativity in that side and part of the reason we have scored so rarely is there has not been enough through the middle up top. We've got pace to burn out wide but if your centre-forward is chucking himself about with his arms up for 90 mins you're going to struggle to use it.

And when we have the ball behind the full backs, he's usually found dropping back behind the penalty spot as though he'll score from that far out instead of busting a gut to get into the 6 yard box / front post.

He's not a striker. He's a bloke who plays up front

[Prufrock]

Aye as demonstrated with that Taylor cross on Tuesday. Josh Vela, a previously holding midfielder with about 3 professional goals was (belatedly) on the move at least trying to get across a defender, admittedly way too late. Madine was *still* stood on the pen spot motionless. There was only one place Taylor was putting that and it wasn't basically back where it came from.

When we signed him he was a "goalscorer with a good record in league 1". Now he's apparently a try-hard target man despite being a massive fanny who has had one game in the last however long where he's actually offered a target.

[BWFC_Insane]

You did say he was good - "superb" in fact!

This "points back it up" is being hugely overplayed too. I've seen anything from Proctor to suggest he'd be any better, but the slump when Madine was out also coincided with us trying to fit 6 new players into the side and that was certainly a factor and, IMO, the decisive one, rather than us particularly missing Madine.

If he performs regularly as he did on Monday I'll stop considering him #1 needs replacing and think him "worth his spot but I'd like better".

You still have to go down to 20th to find a team that has scored fewer than us. Sure, we're set up to be hard to play against but there's creativity in that side and part of the reason we have scored so rarely is there has not been enough through the middle up top. We've got pace to burn out wide but if your centre-forward is chucking himself about with his arms up for 90 mins you're going to struggle to use it.

I said he was superb at Bury. And he was. As was Vela. Both for workrate above owt else.

When you can name a striker who could do the job of pressing the front line, winning stuff in the air and getting into goal scoring positions and score who we can sign, I'll accept we should do better than Madine. But until then it's a lot of 'Madine doesn't do this and that' yet still is the best we've got.

[nelson66]

did anyone else notice the bury player asking Clough to swap shirts at the end of the match
the bucket shakers knew that they were playing a far superior outfit
must have been their biggest match in the last decade
AND WE RAINED ON THEIR PARADE -

am really looking forwards to collecting 6 points from them this season

[Worthy4England]

You did say he was good - "superb" in fact!

This "points back it up" is being hugely overplayed too. I've seen anything from Proctor to suggest he'd be any better, but the slump when Madine was out also coincided with us trying to fit 6 new players into the side and that was certainly a factor and, IMO, the decisive one, rather than us particularly missing Madine.

If he performs regularly as he did on Monday I'll stop considering him #1 needs replacing and think him "worth his spot but I'd like better".

You still have to go down to 20th to find a team that has scored fewer than us. Sure, we're set up to be hard to play against but there's creativity in that side and part of the reason we have scored so rarely is there has not been enough through the middle up top. We've got pace to burn out wide but if your centre-forward is chucking himself about with his arms up for 90 mins you're going to struggle to use it.

And when we have the ball behind the full backs, he's usually found dropping back behind the penalty spot as though he'll score from that far out instead of busting a gut to get into the 6 yard box / front post.

He's not a striker. He's a bloke who plays up front

Yup. And BWFC I did say he was "superb"...

[Bruce Rioja]

p.s: Bruce Rioja may not remember this, but I was sat with him behind the goals one game at the Mac/Bok when Ivan Klasnic came haring in from left midfield. You just absolutely knew he was going to bury it...he did. That sort of confidence is something we don't expect much of right now.

The QPR game, Tango? I also remember them scoring a perfectly good disallowed goal and Joey Barton being an utter bellend by insisting on taking corner from outside of the D. You're bob-on about Klasnic - do we know how he's getting on?