Ken Anderson - Old Owner (Definitely. For Ever ..... )

Where fellow sufferers gather to share the pain, longing and unrequited transfer requests that make being a Wanderer what it is...

Moderator: Zulus Thousand of em

Post Reply
User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16740
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:51 pm

Away from the ST and thinking about money flow in general, something else to bear in mind is that we're not getting much cash on the gates. An FA Cup home game against just about the biggest club we could have drawn attracts just 7,027.

As I've noted before, the league attendances are holding up well, averaging 14,274 over the first 10 home league games; that said, as this graph shows, that number is somewhat swollen by the league visits of the Blades and Bantams – the only two clubs with higher average attendances than us, who are both relatively local and promotion rivals, and who both brought 4,300 fans with them. Our bank balance can't rely on visiting support like that every fortnight, and without those two games the average is 13,525.

As for us lot, a quick bit of digging reveals that the number of home fans is almost always somewhere in the 12,000s. The club usually tweets the number of away fans, but didn't do so for Fleetwood (total 13,524), Millwall (13,110) and Coventry (12,290). Number of home fans has been:

12693 Sheffield United
13524 Fleetwood Town* (combined)
12866 Southend United
12517 Milton Keynes Dons
13098 Bradford City
12824 Oxford United
12794 Oldham Athletic
12785 Port Vale
4744 Grimsby Town (Cup)
13110 Millwall* (combined)
12290 Coventry City* (combined)
5669 Sheffield United (Cup)

The only declared home attendance above 13,000 was Bradford (13,098). It's also only dipped below 12,500 once (Cov, unless Millwall or Fleetwood brought a decent following).

That might sound like a healthy number, and it's better than most in the division, but it's worth remembering that we sold 10,000 STs in the summer (per BN). That was welcome guaranteed money, but it means we're only getting 2,500 (plus whatever the oppo bring) in matchday sales. That's not a lot considering we have high overheads, and it feels like the club were right in the summer to consider shutting the top tiers; not necessarily saying they would have been right to do it, just considering the crowds haven't flocked back despite our best chance of winning in decades.

boltonboris
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 12963
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:27 pm

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by boltonboris » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:59 pm

Said it before and will do again. Outside of the Premier League, we could offer free matchday tickets and there still wouldn't be anywhere 20,000 on the gate.

The people of Bolton, just aren't arsed about going watching their local team
"I've got the ball now. It's a bit worn, but I've got it"

bristol_Wanderer3
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1667
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:53 pm

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:11 pm

To be fair, the size of our crowds have shocked me. I was expecting around 7000-8000 home fans per game.

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16740
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:20 pm

bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:To be fair, the size of our crowds have shocked me. I was expecting around 7000-8000 home fans per game.
And to be equally fair, I was pleasantly surprised when 10,000 mad bastards put their hands in their pockets despite the shite served up over the previous few years. All I'm saying is that their money will be accounted for, whether it was paid up front or on the drip, so it's not like we're getting 13,000 ticket sales every fortnight. Considering we seem to be losing twice as much money per month as we'd save by not renewing all the player contracts expiring next summer, it's just another little worry.

bristol_Wanderer3
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1667
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:53 pm

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:34 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:To be fair, the size of our crowds have shocked me. I was expecting around 7000-8000 home fans per game.
And to be equally fair, I was pleasantly surprised when 10,000 mad bastards put their hands in their pockets despite the shite served up over the previous few years. All I'm saying is that their money will be accounted for, whether it was paid up front or on the drip, so it's not like we're getting 13,000 ticket sales every fortnight. Considering we seem to be losing twice as much money per month as we'd save by not renewing all the player contracts expiring next summer, it's just another little worry.
Oh indeed. It would be interesting to compare our number of "walk-ups" with other clubs. Bradford, for example, get their crowds in part from the fact they offer very cheap season tickets with free child entry, I believe. As for our losses, it is hard to conclude anything but that we are benefactor dependent which is troubling. The accounts when they go in will make interesting reading...

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25479
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:31 pm

bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:To be fair, the size of our crowds have shocked me. I was expecting around 7000-8000 home fans per game.
And to be equally fair, I was pleasantly surprised when 10,000 mad bastards put their hands in their pockets despite the shite served up over the previous few years. All I'm saying is that their money will be accounted for, whether it was paid up front or on the drip, so it's not like we're getting 13,000 ticket sales every fortnight. Considering we seem to be losing twice as much money per month as we'd save by not renewing all the player contracts expiring next summer, it's just another little worry.
Oh indeed. It would be interesting to compare our number of "walk-ups" with other clubs. Bradford, for example, get their crowds in part from the fact they offer very cheap season tickets with free child entry, I believe. As for our losses, it is hard to conclude anything but that we are benefactor dependent which is troubling. The accounts when they go in will make interesting reading...
I'd like to think we could exist in the middle ground between some mad old coot sticking tens of millions in to cover debt year on year till he's had enough and running entirely self sufficiently.

Having a decent business model, some sensible, grounded targeted investment where appropriate and being well managed on the pitch would be fine IMO. It is the model we had in the early years of ED and worked great until Big Sam got bored and started the spending train.

I accept that to have stayed up we had little choice but to spend more and more but perhaps that was where we needed to accept relegation and rebuild more modestly.

User avatar
Abdoulaye's Twin
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8478
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:27 pm
Location: Skye high

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:52 pm

The real spending started with megson. A fair few million on mainly average players, some very poor, and the wage bill didn't reflect the difference between say Anelka and you know who.

boltonboris
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 12963
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:27 pm

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by boltonboris » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:54 pm

Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:The real spending started with megson. A fair few million on mainly average players, some very poor, and the wage bill didn't reflect the difference between say Anelka and you know who.
We spent to survive. Then employed Owen Coyle
"I've got the ball now. It's a bit worn, but I've got it"

User avatar
Abdoulaye's Twin
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8478
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:27 pm
Location: Skye high

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:27 pm

boltonboris wrote:
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:The real spending started with megson. A fair few million on mainly average players, some very poor, and the wage bill didn't reflect the difference between say Anelka and you know who.
We spent to survive. Then employed Owen Coyle
Merely pointing out the real spending train started with megson. There's no doubt we needed to spend differently after Sam, but Shittu and friends was the train crash.

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25479
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:34 pm

Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
boltonboris wrote:
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:The real spending started with megson. A fair few million on mainly average players, some very poor, and the wage bill didn't reflect the difference between say Anelka and you know who.
We spent to survive. Then employed Owen Coyle
Merely pointing out the real spending train started with megson. There's no doubt we needed to spend differently after Sam, but Shittu and friends was the train crash.
Not sure that is entirely accurate. Sam started spending and wanting more each year. When Sam left they went for the cheap option and didn't give him much to spend. We were bottom. Megson came in at a time when spending generally was sky rocketing, inheriting an ageing squad with Sammy Lee's oddities included.

We could and probably should at that point have accepted our fate and cut the losses.

But without the spending we'd have gone down with a whimper. And people would have been angry without the hindsight.

truewhite15
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 2157
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:25 pm

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by truewhite15 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:33 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
boltonboris wrote:
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:The real spending started with megson. A fair few million on mainly average players, some very poor, and the wage bill didn't reflect the difference between say Anelka and you know who.
We spent to survive. Then employed Owen Coyle
Merely pointing out the real spending train started with megson. There's no doubt we needed to spend differently after Sam, but Shittu and friends was the train crash.
Not sure that is entirely accurate. Sam started spending and wanting more each year. When Sam left they went for the cheap option and didn't give him much to spend. We were bottom. Megson came in at a time when spending generally was sky rocketing, inheriting an ageing squad with Sammy Lee's oddities included.

We could and probably should at that point have accepted our fate and cut the losses.

But without the spending we'd have gone down with a whimper. And people would have been angry without the hindsight.
Aye, but Sam was actually doing something with the cash he spent, and had we speculated just a little more, he could well have had us in the Champions League. Getting on that gravy train would likely result in an entirely different story.

Sammy Lee got jack to spend, and had to build a squad decimated by Sam's exit. Megson (in year one) spent only the Anelka money, but I remember being astonished by the fact that we were spending a couple of million quid on each player that January.

We're in a sport where you HAVE to speculate to accumulate. The trick is spending on the right players, and getting a man in charge who knows the players who will make a team better. The issue wasn't Coyle spending. It was Coyle spending. If it had been someone else, who knows?

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25479
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:49 pm

truewhite15 wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
boltonboris wrote:
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:The real spending started with megson. A fair few million on mainly average players, some very poor, and the wage bill didn't reflect the difference between say Anelka and you know who.
We spent to survive. Then employed Owen Coyle
Merely pointing out the real spending train started with megson. There's no doubt we needed to spend differently after Sam, but Shittu and friends was the train crash.
Not sure that is entirely accurate. Sam started spending and wanting more each year. When Sam left they went for the cheap option and didn't give him much to spend. We were bottom. Megson came in at a time when spending generally was sky rocketing, inheriting an ageing squad with Sammy Lee's oddities included.

We could and probably should at that point have accepted our fate and cut the losses.

But without the spending we'd have gone down with a whimper. And people would have been angry without the hindsight.
Aye, but Sam was actually doing something with the cash he spent, and had we speculated just a little more, he could well have had us in the Champions League. Getting on that gravy train would likely result in an entirely different story.

Sammy Lee got jack to spend, and had to build a squad decimated by Sam's exit. Megson (in year one) spent only the Anelka money, but I remember being astonished by the fact that we were spending a couple of million quid on each player that January.

We're in a sport where you HAVE to speculate to accumulate. The trick is spending on the right players, and getting a man in charge who knows the players who will make a team better. The issue wasn't Coyle spending. It was Coyle spending. If it had been someone else, who knows?
Again I cannot agree. At some point it was ending. Sam was leaving at some point. See what happens when a long term manager leaves even at big clubs.

The money might have got us in the chumps league or might not have. At some point we would have a dip and things would have caught up with us sooner or later. Eddie was pulling the plug irrespective at some point.

Worthy4England
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 23081
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 6:45 pm

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:53 pm

truewhite15 wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
boltonboris wrote:
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:The real spending started with megson. A fair few million on mainly average players, some very poor, and the wage bill didn't reflect the difference between say Anelka and you know who.
We spent to survive. Then employed Owen Coyle
Merely pointing out the real spending train started with megson. There's no doubt we needed to spend differently after Sam, but Shittu and friends was the train crash.
Not sure that is entirely accurate. Sam started spending and wanting more each year. When Sam left they went for the cheap option and didn't give him much to spend. We were bottom. Megson came in at a time when spending generally was sky rocketing, inheriting an ageing squad with Sammy Lee's oddities included.

We could and probably should at that point have accepted our fate and cut the losses.

But without the spending we'd have gone down with a whimper. And people would have been angry without the hindsight.
Aye, but Sam was actually doing something with the cash he spent, and had we speculated just a little more, he could well have had us in the Champions League. Getting on that gravy train would likely result in an entirely different story.

Sammy Lee got jack to spend, and had to build a squad decimated by Sam's exit. Megson (in year one) spent only the Anelka money, but I remember being astonished by the fact that we were spending a couple of million quid on each player that January.

We're in a sport where you HAVE to speculate to accumulate. The trick is spending on the right players, and getting a man in charge who knows the players who will make a team better. The issue wasn't Coyle spending. It was Coyle spending. If it had been someone else, who knows?
Think this is pretty accurate, other than the "couple of million quid on each player" - there were a couple where the "headline figure" was more than a couple of million. The "headline" figures were 0.5m Cohen, £3.5 Steiner, £3.5 Matt Taylor and £5m Cahill. Then in the Summer, there was £5m for Moo and £8-10m Elmander - some of that was netted off with Anelka sale and Faye.

If memory serves, Megson was trying to get the best player he could for each position, Coyle said he wanted two players for every position (so he bought two lots of barely Championship players)

On the speculate to accumulate bit, If you've got the money to do the former then you give yourself a chance of the latter, certainly. Not sure Coyle had as much leeway as Megson on the money front...

Rjs37
Hopeful
Hopeful
Posts: 168
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:27 am
Location: Bolton
Contact:

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by Rjs37 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:00 am

How much did Big Sam actually spend? I don't remember many big transfers. Other than Anelka and Diouf of course. And we made an okay profit on the former. I thought he mainly operated on the cheap and paid more on the wages instead?

Granted wages obviously accumulate over the season, but I still remember feeling shocked when our debt levels were going up whilst we were in the Prem and appeared to be spending a lot less than everyone else. It just made no sense to me at the time, unless we were paying really ridiculous wages.

User avatar
Abdoulaye's Twin
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8478
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:27 pm
Location: Skye high

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:15 am

Under Sam we had a number of 'stars' on fairly large wages that cost little to bring in. We also had a group of what you might call more ordinary players on more ordinary (for the time) wages. Towards the end he spent on Anelka and Diouf. But largely the model was unsustainable as other teams cottoned on to the fading stars and we had more glamourous teams after them.

Less said about Sammy Lee the better.

Megson spent what I would consider top dollar for players. He got Cahill right, but at the time 5m for an untried young centre back? Matty Taylor. Reasonable enough player, but again, we paid more than he was worth. The list goes on and up pops Danny Shittu at 2.2m and wages he probably only could have dreamt of. Didn't he also spend 1m on Connelly?

I don't have the figures to hand, but the transfer spend went up, the wages overall went up and the debt went up during this period. It was exacerbated by Coyle buying shit players that made Danny Shittu look like a reasonable enough idea. We had to move on from Sam and change the model. Many players Megson brought in were alright, he just paid too much for them and they were handed bigger contracts than their talent/contribution warranted. The one good thing about the Megson players was that at least some of them had a sell on value :D

Prufrock
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 19812
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:51 pm

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by Prufrock » Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:12 am

He gets the benefit of hindsight with Cahill tbf. Hee baat have been unproven, but that's a Premier League, Champions League and Europa League winning England regular who we nearly doubled our money on despite him only having 6 months left.

Meggo also brought us Chungy who was a class act.
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

User avatar
Abdoulaye's Twin
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8478
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:27 pm
Location: Skye high

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 am

Prufrock wrote:He gets the benefit of hindsight with Cahill tbf. Hee baat have been unproven, but that's a Premier League, Champions League and Europa League winning England regular who we nearly doubled our money on despite him only having 6 months left.

Meggo also brought us Chungy who was a class act.
Is that Hindi or Urdu? :conf:

Dr Hotdog
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:50 pm
Location: no

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by Dr Hotdog » Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:52 am

Summer '09 Mystic Donut spunked a lot on Zat Knight (29) and Sam Ricketts (27), sealed Chungy (21) for £2m, picked up Sean Davis (29) on a bozzy and loaned Robbo for the season. To be fair if Sean Davis didn't have glass knees...

It was Owen's decision to offer the then relegated Zatty boy a 2-year deal in 2012 (a few days after we signed Matt Mills for £2,000,000). Congratulations and cheers for the good work, Zat, here's a new contract...

Rjs37
Hopeful
Hopeful
Posts: 168
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:27 am
Location: Bolton
Contact:

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by Rjs37 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:56 am

Came across this article when I was trying to look up the debt levels from back then:
http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2010/ ... -debt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quite a few interesting facts and numbers in there.

bristol_Wanderer3
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1667
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:53 pm

Re: Ken Anderson - New Owner (Definitely. For Now ..... )

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:29 pm

Rjs37 wrote:Came across this article when I was trying to look up the debt levels from back then:
http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2010/ ... -debt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quite a few interesting facts and numbers in there.
Thanks for this. We all know that some poor quality managers appointed after BSA, meant that we had to throw money at it, and that retaining Prem status was considered the holy grail and that we got pretty complacent knowing we had a benefactor prepared to provide the money.

What interests me the most, and what might be relevant today is:

1.) Our "other expenses", not including salaries or player costs. We don't know exactly what is in these, but these will include the general costs of running the club, including basic bills, costs of the stadium and hotel, training ground, transport etc. They will also include interest on loans. These had risen to £31m in 2010, close to 60% of turnover. When compared with other teams, other similarly sized clubs had similar broadcast revenue and wage costs. But they weren't losing £35m annually. I wonder what "other expenses" are today? I suspect that these are an ever higher % of a much reduced turnover today.

2.) Commercial income and match day income close to the lowest in the league. So what did we get out of our high "other expenses"? Not a lot. The Reebok was and is a beautiful stadium, with lots of facilities that could generate revenue that lots of other stadiums don't have. We have had a wonderful "big club" set up with posh stadium, hotel, offices, lavish academy, and until recently a state of the art training facility. Yet our set up was generating lower match day and commercial revenue than pretty much all our competitors.

Conclusion: It is probable that the Reebok and other facilities continue to cost a lot to run, but generate little extra revenue. And right now, with income more dependent on match day revenue for the foreseeable future, is likely to be a constant millstone around the club's neck. And it is hard to see what we can do about it, except pimp ourselves out for another benefactor...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests