Iron versus Wheaterbix. Scunthorpe away, Sat 8th April.

Where fellow sufferers gather to share the pain, longing and unrequited transfer requests that make being a Wanderer what it is...

Moderator: Zulus Thousand of em

Post Reply
User avatar
Abdoulaye's Twin
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8479
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:27 pm
Location: Skye high

Re: Iron versus Wheaterbix. Scunthorpe away, Sat 8th April.

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:37 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:18 pm
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:54 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:57 pm
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:18 am
If we can't get promoted from the position we're in due to Gary Madine being absent then we have no business being promoted.
Which is all fine and true A.T., ecept without him we have to stop thinking he's stll there, and play a different style of football.With Long, Clayton and Alf as the point options, Wilkinson is the only one we have big enough to even come close to playing giraffe-ball. I say that rather than set pieces because we can use Wheats, Beevers and Dervitefor those. With Madine missing, sad as some may find the fact, we haven't the players or wherewithall to play that game. Either we play on the deck or be glad of the Machine option. It's a fact....I think.... :|
I still believe we're capable of stringing a couple of passes together to bring the likes of ALF, Long and Clayton into the game. If being big and getting in the way is all we need then we have several of those in defence that could do a stand in.
We're a high tempo physical team with one outball. Up front. Whatever anyone thinks we aren't going from that to a team that can open the opposition up with some quick incisive midfield play.

We've only had two real outlets this season. Madine and Ameobi when he was here. The rest need some way of getting the ball high up the pitch to press and make Vela's running effective.

I don't know why people expect Spearing, Pratley and Vela to suddenly show qualities they've never possessed just because we've lost our target man. But there you go.
I don't expect them to suddenly become Iniesta, but they're good enough to do more than watch the ball sail over their heads and wait for it to come back 2.5 seconds later.

boltonboris
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 12963
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:27 pm

Re: Iron versus Wheaterbix. Scunthorpe away, Sat 8th April.

Post by boltonboris » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:41 pm

Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:37 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:18 pm
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:54 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:57 pm
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:18 am
If we can't get promoted from the position we're in due to Gary Madine being absent then we have no business being promoted.
Which is all fine and true A.T., ecept without him we have to stop thinking he's stll there, and play a different style of football.With Long, Clayton and Alf as the point options, Wilkinson is the only one we have big enough to even come close to playing giraffe-ball. I say that rather than set pieces because we can use Wheats, Beevers and Dervitefor those. With Madine missing, sad as some may find the fact, we haven't the players or wherewithall to play that game. Either we play on the deck or be glad of the Machine option. It's a fact....I think.... :|
I still believe we're capable of stringing a couple of passes together to bring the likes of ALF, Long and Clayton into the game. If being big and getting in the way is all we need then we have several of those in defence that could do a stand in.
We're a high tempo physical team with one outball. Up front. Whatever anyone thinks we aren't going from that to a team that can open the opposition up with some quick incisive midfield play.

We've only had two real outlets this season. Madine and Ameobi when he was here. The rest need some way of getting the ball high up the pitch to press and make Vela's running effective.

I don't know why people expect Spearing, Pratley and Vela to suddenly show qualities they've never possessed just because we've lost our target man. But there you go.
I don't expect them to suddenly become Iniesta, but they're good enough to do more than watch the ball sail over their heads and wait for it to come back 2.5 seconds later.
Spearing always looks a better footballer when we have width for him to play with. Having Taylor back will see our midfield play better football.
"I've got the ball now. It's a bit worn, but I've got it"

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25503
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Iron versus Wheaterbix. Scunthorpe away, Sat 8th April.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:56 pm

Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:37 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:18 pm
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:54 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:57 pm
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:18 am
If we can't get promoted from the position we're in due to Gary Madine being absent then we have no business being promoted.
Which is all fine and true A.T., ecept without him we have to stop thinking he's stll there, and play a different style of football.With Long, Clayton and Alf as the point options, Wilkinson is the only one we have big enough to even come close to playing giraffe-ball. I say that rather than set pieces because we can use Wheats, Beevers and Dervitefor those. With Madine missing, sad as some may find the fact, we haven't the players or wherewithall to play that game. Either we play on the deck or be glad of the Machine option. It's a fact....I think.... :|
I still believe we're capable of stringing a couple of passes together to bring the likes of ALF, Long and Clayton into the game. If being big and getting in the way is all we need then we have several of those in defence that could do a stand in.
We're a high tempo physical team with one outball. Up front. Whatever anyone thinks we aren't going from that to a team that can open the opposition up with some quick incisive midfield play.

We've only had two real outlets this season. Madine and Ameobi when he was here. The rest need some way of getting the ball high up the pitch to press and make Vela's running effective.

I don't know why people expect Spearing, Pratley and Vela to suddenly show qualities they've never possessed just because we've lost our target man. But there you go.
I don't expect them to suddenly become Iniesta, but they're good enough to do more than watch the ball sail over their heads and wait for it to come back 2.5 seconds later.
That isn't what we do. We get it up to Madine, he either holds it, or makes it tough for defenders to clear, we pick up the second ball and press from there.

The football when we play like that at tempo isn't actually bad. When the alternative scenario is Wheater, Beevers or Dervite having the ball, having no option to send it long, and no actual ability on the ball themselves, to then give it to Spearing or Pratley who both end up turning backwards or mis-controlling it, or sending it wide to wing back also deep with no outlet. It doesn't work.

It isn't like teams give us space to exploit in midfield either.

User avatar
Abdoulaye's Twin
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8479
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:27 pm
Location: Skye high

Re: Iron versus Wheaterbix. Scunthorpe away, Sat 8th April.

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:04 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:56 pm

That isn't what we do. We get it up to Madine, he either holds it, or makes it tough for defenders to clear, we pick up the second ball and press from there.
Which is fine, but if Madine isn't fit then we have to do something different due to the fact we don't have a Madine B. My point is that we could and are able to play a different way should we choose to. We might not prefer to, but if the circumstances are what they are then we have to do something because hoofing it over the head of ALF and Wilkinson is not any sort of answer.

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16788
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: Iron versus Wheaterbix. Scunthorpe away, Sat 8th April.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:04 pm

boltonboris wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:41 pm
Spearing always looks a better footballer when we have width for him to play with. Having Taylor back will see our midfield play better football.
TBF they were all pretty keen to spread the ball to Moxey and Morais at Scunny, and very accurate with it. Trouble is, Moxey couldn't do much with it, his confidence is shot to shit, although he kept persevering.

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25503
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Iron versus Wheaterbix. Scunthorpe away, Sat 8th April.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:27 pm

Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:04 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:56 pm

That isn't what we do. We get it up to Madine, he either holds it, or makes it tough for defenders to clear, we pick up the second ball and press from there.
Which is fine, but if Madine isn't fit then we have to do something different due to the fact we don't have a Madine B. My point is that we could and are able to play a different way should we choose to. We might not prefer to, but if the circumstances are what they are then we have to do something because hoofing it over the head of ALF and Wilkinson is not any sort of answer.
We don't have the ability to do anything else. Many teams don't. I mean we can pass in front of teams very nicely. But we don't have anyone to actually open a team up once we are playing through midfield. Not unless we catch them on the break. But of course teams often choose to sit in against us, rather than step out and play.

You can say "we should do this or that or the other". I remember a team packed with the likes of Stelios, Okocha, Diouf etc that still struggled without Davies up front at times.

IF Madine isn't fit we probably should play a different system. But even then we still have the problem of where is our out ball. When the defence has the ball, who do they give it to? Most of the time Spearing and Pratley turn away as they simply don't want the ball in tight situations. Morais is practically the only one who is comfortable on the ball there and that is why if Madine is out I'd like to get him far higher up the pitch. But of course that involves dismantling the system we've settled into.

The bottom line is, the majority of this league struggle to win games if they haven't got a target man up front. Christ, I'd argue the same goes in most leagues now. It is very hard having two lads up front who don't make the ball stick at all. You're essentially carrying them, unless you are very, very good.

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16788
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: Iron versus Wheaterbix. Scunthorpe away, Sat 8th April.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:35 pm

Spearing constantly showed for the ball at Scunny. Moxey and Morais were keen to receive out wide. But Pratley and Vela aren't really move-constructors; if anything they like to arrive late and finish it, like Nolan Lite. It's not the first time this season I've seen us put together five passes but still get no further than the forward edge of the centre-circle. What's saddening is when the ball is then worked backwards for a centre-back to clonk it forward - although to be fair, this was far far less in evidence than it was at Walsall all those weekends ago.

bristol_Wanderer3
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:53 pm

Re: Iron versus Wheaterbix. Scunthorpe away, Sat 8th April.

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:13 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:27 pm

The bottom line is, the majority of this league struggle to win games if they haven't got a target man up front. Christ, I'd argue the same goes in most leagues now. It is very hard having two lads up front who don't make the ball stick at all. You're essentially carrying them, unless you are very, very good.
This simply isn't true. Many teams rely in this league on smaller,more mobile forwards and do not play it long to a target man. Sheffield United are top because they have the best midfield in the league (Coutts, Fleck, Duffy) and their constant up front is 5ft 9in Billy Sharp. Fleetwood do no play with a target man up front and look to work the ball through smaller, mobile forwards (Hunter, Cole, Ball). Scunthorpe's Paddy Madden relies on movement and finishing rather than hold up play. Bradford, as the season has gone on have moved away from the use of a target man (Hanson left in January), and play through the midfield. Even though Charlie Wyke is 6ft 2in, they rarely play the ball long for him to hold up.

I think we are too one dimensional at times, and I agree with those who say we have the ability in midfield to play it through the midfield more. I have seen us do this numerous times when Ameobi and Clough were in the team. Then we had a nice balance with the option of Madine also available, but with Clough and Ameobi wanting to receive the ball to feet.

I think though Parky has had a lot to deal with this season and it is to our benefit to have a simple way of playing that can get us a result even when it is not working very well. Parky earlier in the season talked about the team having a structure, and later an identity. That structure / identity is clearly a team that is strong physically, that defends from the front, that does a lot of running. So we are fundamentally hard to beat. Being able to just play one simple ball forward and get hold of the ball in the opposition's half always gives us a chance of winning a set piece or getting a ball into the box. From there we get some goals. It isn't pretty, but it is effective. It is the only way to utilise Madine. Pratley and Vela are better at running than passing. The three centre halves can play mistake free simple passes. It works at this level with these players. If we suddenly get key injuries, maybe the ground work hasn't been done to change this formula? This team was thrown together between end of January and early March. Maybe we only have one way to play with this set of players, and it is not possible to introduce new concepts in the remaining 2-3 weeks of the season? It would seem it is a case of finding a way to fall over the line now rather than try a different method. Anyway, according to the BEN, it looks like Madine might be fit for at least some of the final four games so perceived inflexibility will not be an issue.

Prufrock
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 19826
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:51 pm

Re: Iron versus Wheaterbix. Scunthorpe away, Sat 8th April.

Post by Prufrock » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:18 pm

Got to have a) a target or b) width high.

Was Wilkinson playing in this league on loan earlier this year? I think the lad is bobbins but the difference between us being 2nd and not able to get 5 points from 4 strugglers is not that between CW and Nadine. I'd reluctantly stick with him I think.
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests