Pre-season fixtures 2017

Where fellow sufferers gather to share the pain, longing and unrequited transfer requests that make being a Wanderer what it is...

Moderator: Zulus Thousand of em

Post Reply
Worthy4England
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 23081
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 6:45 pm

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:28 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:02 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:54 am
I dunno. I wouldn't be unhappy with a safe lower mid table finish. The reality that it's any sort of balanced playing field preceded us getting relegated.
I'd agree with that (as I'm sure quite a few would right now), but if we start to do well and then slip to that level somebody is sure to moan. Reralistically, "Festina Lente" should be the new club motto. :wink:
The minute we start any sort of slide will be because we're one dimensional with no plan B. You can write the script now. :-)

User avatar
Abdoulaye's Twin
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8478
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:27 pm
Location: Skye high

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:52 pm

I'd just like a relatively drama free season. On and off the pitch...yeah, I know :D

Prufrock
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 19812
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:51 pm

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by Prufrock » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:13 pm

I'd take 4th bottom but "excellent" is overdoing it.
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25476
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:20 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:13 pm
I'd take 4th bottom but "excellent" is overdoing it.
Yes. We will have the lowest wage bill in the league. So fourth bottom will be excellent. Finishing fourth bottom in a league where clubs are signing £10M plus players and we can only pay £4500 a week to anyone we buy, less than we paid last season. 4th bottom would have been excellent under any circumstances. Under these ones I'd say it would be miraculous and better than any achievement in the past 20 years. Without a touch of hyperbole.

One has to put the situation into context. Been under an embargo for longer than any English club, ever. And that embargo has just got tougher. We are nailed on to go down with a whimper by any sensible rationale you want to use.

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 38094
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Lost between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light a penny candle from a star.

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:26 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:20 pm
yperbole.

One has to put the situation into context. Been under an embargo for longer than any English club, ever. And that embargo has just got tougher. We are nailed on to go down with a whimper by any sensible rationale you want to use.
Please sir; what has sensible rationale got to do with football? And does it all mean that unless footballers cost and earn fortunes they are no good and can't win? If so, what's the point of it all please?
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25476
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:29 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:26 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:20 pm
yperbole.

One has to put the situation into context. Been under an embargo for longer than any English club, ever. And that embargo has just got tougher. We are nailed on to go down with a whimper by any sensible rationale you want to use.
Please sir; what has sensible rationale got to do with football? And does it all mean that unless footballers cost and earn fortunes they are no good and can't win? If so, what's the point of it all please?
You realise there is a fairly strong correlation between spending on wages and success? Clearly every so often you can buck that trend, as we did initially under Allardyce. But you will be fighting against it and long term it will catch up with you.

The point is to find a rich owner who fancies getting a club into the premiership. To do that we have to stay in the championship somehow.

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16738
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:35 pm

As usual there's a middle ground.

It's a divided division but not every team is paying eight-figure fees. Burton, Barnsley, Millwall - they're the teams to finish above. We'll also welcome anyone who drops into that po'folks group - possibly Preston post-Grayson, plus any Blackburnish types succumbing to decay and gravity (Birmingham and Forest came close, maybe Ipswich, maybe Brentford will stop managing to punch above their weight).

Finishing fourth-bottom would be a very good achievement, especially if the fiscal shortfall continues. Not everybody will acclaim it, and the football we need to play to achieve it might not have them flocking from afar. But that's OK, under the circumstances.

Prufrock
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 19812
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:51 pm

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by Prufrock » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:38 pm

Behave Insano, we've got a good manager and a good defence. Gets you a long way. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be grumbling at 21st but if it's excellent, what, 22nd would be a "good" season?

Also, some clubs are paying 10m for players, but I'm not buying we can't at least compete with the likes of Burton and Barnsley financially! Also no way on earth SammyAmmy/ Buckley are on 4.5 kpw.
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

Armchair Wanderer
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1916
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:36 am

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by Armchair Wanderer » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:23 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:29 pm
You realise there is a fairly strong correlation between spending on wages and success? Clearly every so often you can buck that trend, as we did initially under Allardyce. But you will be fighting against it and long term it will catch up with you.
I'm saying this to be corrected by a wiser member of the board... Wasn't the whole thing with Allardyce to save money on signing fees but put the money saved onto wages? I thought that was what happened with a lot of the big names at the time that may have arrived on a free/almost free. I was under the impression that BSA was one of the first to do this (and the science / Opta) before everyone else caught up.
The players you fail to sign never lose you any money.

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 38094
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Lost between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light a penny candle from a star.

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:07 pm

Armchair Wanderer wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:23 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:29 pm
You realise there is a fairly strong correlation between spending on wages and success? Clearly every so often you can buck that trend, as we did initially under Allardyce. But you will be fighting against it and long term it will catch up with you.
I'm saying this to be corrected by a wiser member of the board... Wasn't the whole thing with Allardyce to save money on signing fees but put the money saved onto wages? I thought that was what happened with a lot of the big names at the time that may have arrived on a free/almost free. I was under the impression that BSA was one of the first to do this (and the science / Opta) before everyone else caught up.
Ah, but Big Sam had a magic wand. How else could he entice the top players he did to come to Bolton? J.J , Youri, Stelios, Bobic, Super Kev, Hiero, Ivan Campo, Gary Speed etc, etc...could it happen today?
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

Armchair Wanderer
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1916
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:36 am

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by Armchair Wanderer » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:13 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:07 pm
Armchair Wanderer wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:23 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:29 pm
You realise there is a fairly strong correlation between spending on wages and success? Clearly every so often you can buck that trend, as we did initially under Allardyce. But you will be fighting against it and long term it will catch up with you.
I'm saying this to be corrected by a wiser member of the board... Wasn't the whole thing with Allardyce to save money on signing fees but put the money saved onto wages? I thought that was what happened with a lot of the big names at the time that may have arrived on a free/almost free. I was under the impression that BSA was one of the first to do this (and the science / Opta) before everyone else caught up.
Ah, but Big Sam had a magic wand. How else could he entice the top players he did to come to Bolton? J.J , Youri, Stelios, Bobic, Super Kev, Hiero, Ivan Campo, Gary Speed etc, etc...could it happen today?
Haha. Well, yeah, that's it. And, most of those would be on a decent wedge.

The Scandinavians before then may have been cheaper.. Jenson, Hanson, Bergsson, the Scholes look-a-like and Frandsen. Maybe that's what Mr Insane was talking about!?

EDIT.. Eidur, Stig, Arnar Gunnlaugsson and Jussi. Plus more I can't think of at the moment.
The players you fail to sign never lose you any money.

bristol_Wanderer3
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1667
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:53 pm

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:30 pm

Armchair Wanderer wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:13 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:07 pm
Armchair Wanderer wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:23 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:29 pm
You realise there is a fairly strong correlation between spending on wages and success? Clearly every so often you can buck that trend, as we did initially under Allardyce. But you will be fighting against it and long term it will catch up with you.
I'm saying this to be corrected by a wiser member of the board... Wasn't the whole thing with Allardyce to save money on signing fees but put the money saved onto wages? I thought that was what happened with a lot of the big names at the time that may have arrived on a free/almost free. I was under the impression that BSA was one of the first to do this (and the science / Opta) before everyone else caught up.
Ah, but Big Sam had a magic wand. How else could he entice the top players he did to come to Bolton? J.J , Youri, Stelios, Bobic, Super Kev, Hiero, Ivan Campo, Gary Speed etc, etc...could it happen today?
Haha. Well, yeah, that's it. And, most of those would be on a decent wedge.

The Scandinavians before then may have been cheaper.. Jenson, Hanson, Bergsson, the Scholes look-a-like and Frandsen. Maybe that's what Mr Insane was talking about!?

EDIT.. Eidur, Stig, Arnar Gunnlaugsson and Jussi. Plus more I can't think of at the moment.
BSA did indeed spend his budget mostly on wages and did not pay the transfer fees some others did, especially early in that period (2002-04, Anelka cost £8m in 2006, Diouf £4m in 2005). We were able to get the likes of Okocha, Campo, Djorkaeff, Stelios, N'Gotty because other Prem clubs were looking at younger players with more potential and overlooked some super talented players, around 30 or older, who were deemed past their best. BSA got them playing at their best again and we reaped the rewards.

I think BWFCi meant that despite the wages we paid, we were still punching way above our weight. We were finishing 6th-8th and consistently above big spenders like Spurs, Villa, Everton, Newcastle and West Ham. Magical times!!

bristol_Wanderer3
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1667
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:53 pm

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:52 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:35 pm
As usual there's a middle ground.

It's a divided division but not every team is paying eight-figure fees. Burton, Barnsley, Millwall - they're the teams to finish above. We'll also welcome anyone who drops into that po'folks group - possibly Preston post-Grayson, plus any Blackburnish types succumbing to decay and gravity (Birmingham and Forest came close, maybe Ipswich, maybe Brentford will stop managing to punch above their weight).

Finishing fourth-bottom would be a very good achievement, especially if the fiscal shortfall continues. Not everybody will acclaim it, and the football we need to play to achieve it might not have them flocking from afar. But that's OK, under the circumstances.
I think Bristol City will struggle. They almost went down last season despite Tammy Abraham scoring 23 goals for them. They have spent £5m on his replacement from the French league, and recently £4m on Nathan Baker, a defender from Villa, but might lose key man Aden Flint from their defence and have just lost Lee Tomlin to Cardiff. Hull seems in disarray after relegation with a new Russian manager who might not understand the grind that is the Championship and lots of holes in their squad. Sheffield United seems to have relied on lower league signings and have little Championship experience in their squad. QPR I think will struggle too, they are still in downsizing mode after their excesses when in the Prem and were close to relegation last season. Preston, Millwall, Barnsley, Burton are all at our level or below financially, and will be happy to stay up.

There is definitely hope. But I largely agree with BWFCi. Our squad looks already looks weak at this level and this latest restriction via the embargo is a potentially crushing below. Not only can we not sign Championship level players on a permanent basis (thankfully we got a lot our permanent signings in early so it could have been much worse), but we face the potential upheval of losing loan players in January, and we won't be able to offer Vela or Beevers the contracts they deserve making us vulnerable to losing them too. Millwall are already sniffing around Beevers. And then at what point does Parky get fed up with it all? Of course the Andersons could sort out the Blumarble issue and submit what the league require and end the embargo....

We do have Championship ability all the way through our team, we have a great manager and good team spirit just now, but we have little strength in depth. We should be competitive with the bottom 8-10 teams, but if you are Millwall or Barnsley you are looking at us as a cert for the bottom 3. All in all, 21st with the squad we have right now would be a very good achievement imho.

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25476
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:47 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:38 pm
Behave Insano, we've got a good manager and a good defence. Gets you a long way. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be grumbling at 21st but if it's excellent, what, 22nd would be a "good" season?

Also, some clubs are paying 10m for players, but I'm not buying we can't at least compete with the likes of Burton and Barnsley financially! Also no way on earth SammyAmmy/ Buckley are on 4.5 kpw.
Those clubs aren't in the embargo we are. It was reported that Millwall have beaten us to a couple of targets earlier in the window. I think staying up would be excellent. End of. Actually close to miraculous. We go into the season as it stands weaker than we were last season. And we probably would have struggled to stay up in this league last season.

LeverEnd
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8029
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:18 pm
Location: Dirty Leeds

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:36 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:47 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:38 pm
Behave Insano, we've got a good manager and a good defence. Gets you a long way. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be grumbling at 21st but if it's excellent, what, 22nd would be a "good" season?

Also, some clubs are paying 10m for players, but I'm not buying we can't at least compete with the likes of Burton and Barnsley financially! Also no way on earth SammyAmmy/ Buckley are on 4.5 kpw.
Those clubs aren't in the embargo we are. It was reported that Millwall have beaten us to a couple of targets earlier in the window. I think staying up would be excellent. End of. Actually close to miraculous. We go into the season as it stands weaker than we were last season. And we probably would have struggled to stay up in this league last season.
I see Millwall aere trying to nick Beevers back but have apparently been 'rebuffed'. Vociferously and abusively I hope.
Oh, but surely just for one day, we could fight and we could win
And if only for a little while, we could insist on the impossible...

LeverEnd
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8029
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:18 pm
Location: Dirty Leeds

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:37 pm

PS Perhaps Bruce could be called down to the Macron to draft the club's response?
Oh, but surely just for one day, we could fight and we could win
And if only for a little while, we could insist on the impossible...

irie Cee Bee
Reliable
Reliable
Posts: 548
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:55 am

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by irie Cee Bee » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:34 am

I would be happy with 4th from bottom and above. But honestly, want promotion. Not afraid of big teams and big spenders. Bring on John Terry and the rest. I am sure our players are not afraid of them. We are a team and not a set of expensive individuals.

Team and fan unity are key this season as we seek to enjoy the season and get out of this financial mess we are in. We are playing to win.

Hoboh
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 12590
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 8:19 am

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by Hoboh » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:02 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:47 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:38 pm
Behave Insano, we've got a good manager and a good defence. Gets you a long way. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be grumbling at 21st but if it's excellent, what, 22nd would be a "good" season?

Also, some clubs are paying 10m for players, but I'm not buying we can't at least compete with the likes of Burton and Barnsley financially! Also no way on earth SammyAmmy/ Buckley are on 4.5 kpw.
Those clubs aren't in the embargo we are. It was reported that Millwall have beaten us to a couple of targets earlier in the window. I think staying up would be excellent. End of. Actually close to miraculous. We go into the season as it stands weaker than we were last season. And we probably would have struggled to stay up in this league last season.
Very, very debateable is that statement, low on numbers maybe, not sure the quality is any worse now all the deadwood has been cleared.

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25476
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:04 am

Hoboh wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:02 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:47 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:38 pm
Behave Insano, we've got a good manager and a good defence. Gets you a long way. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be grumbling at 21st but if it's excellent, what, 22nd would be a "good" season?

Also, some clubs are paying 10m for players, but I'm not buying we can't at least compete with the likes of Burton and Barnsley financially! Also no way on earth SammyAmmy/ Buckley are on 4.5 kpw.
Those clubs aren't in the embargo we are. It was reported that Millwall have beaten us to a couple of targets earlier in the window. I think staying up would be excellent. End of. Actually close to miraculous. We go into the season as it stands weaker than we were last season. And we probably would have struggled to stay up in this league last season.
Very, very debateable is that statement, low on numbers maybe, not sure the quality is any worse now all the deadwood has been cleared.
Don't think it is really. We know that Spearing would start ahead of Pratley. Spearing is no longer here. So we are clearly putting out a weaker 11 than finished the last game of last season.

Only by one player. Morais being injured weakens it too, but he is signed up so can't really count that one.

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 38094
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Lost between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light a penny candle from a star.

Re: Pre-season fixtures 2017

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:18 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:04 am


Don't think it is really. We know that Spearing would start ahead of Pratley. Spearing is no longer here. So we are clearly putting out a weaker 11 than finished the last game of last season. Only by one player. Morais being injured weakens it too, but he is signed up so can't really count that one.
Enter Baloo the bear singing "Look for the bare necessities".....
Spearing is/was just one swallow in a summer, and you know the rest of that. We'll be stronger in other areas. He's gone, life goes on. Let's not show white flags before the season even starts.....
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest