The Alternatives

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

It won't be an issue when Bet Fred buy the club and we have a massive war chest....

Would they even be allowed to buy the club given the obvious conflict of interest?

What conflict of interest? Isn't Stoke's owner also the owner (or co-owner) of one of the big online betting companies?

I would have thought a betting company owning a football club that they take bets on would be as much a concern as club staff betting on matches. If it isn't then it should be.

Peter Coates – who made his money in Stadia Catering, the mob who served up the gristle-in-oil pies at Burnden and other hellholes during the latter decades of the previous century – is the chairman of both bet365 and Stoke City. He'd had a chain of betting shops since the 70s but bet365 was actually his daughter Denise's idea - she was among the first to see the potential of online betting, and she still runs the company with her brother John; pops is the figurehead but not the engine.

Buying into Stoke City in 1985, Peter Coates became majority shareholder in 1989, stepping down as chairman (under fan strife) in 1997 but keeping his stake till he sold it to Icelandics two years later for £3.5m. Six years later they sold it back – to a bet365 subsidiary – for £1.7m. The same year, he sold off his betting shops for £40m.

So yeah, they're pretty well interlinked, and the leagues don't seem arsed.

[nelson66]

isnt Bet Fred something to do with Fred Done who is a united fan ?

[Tombwfc]

I don't want to sack Parky, but it's more than a bit trite to throw out the boogeyman list.

Fans were in revolt as we dropped into the relegation zone and sacked Megson. Still poached Owen Coyle from Burnley, after he'd taken them up and who I believe were above us at the time.

We were even further behind promotion bound Crystal Palace when we persuaded Dougie Freedman to abandon the club where he's still seen as a legend.

Financial realities had started to set in and we were bottom of the league when Neil Lennon took over. It had been widely accepted that he would walk into a Premier League job (or at least a promotion favourite) after leaving Celtic.

And then, having been relegated from the Championship, under new ownership and in the midsts of an embargo, we took Parky from promotion favourites Bradford.

However good or bad they turned out to be, none of them are Tony Adams. They were all highly rated and seen as coups for the club at the time we appointed them.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

isnt Bet Fred something to do with Fred Done who is a united fan ?

Yes, he founded it with his brother Peter, and is still in charge as far as I can see. Very much the public face (he's been on the adverts talking to camera), Fred likes a column inch, even through his own mistakes - like paying out early on Yernited to win the league in 1998 (they lost the league to Arsenal) and 2012 (lost the league to City) and staking £1m against Victor Chandler in 2005 that Yernited would finish above Mourinho's Chelsea (they didn't).

He's now in his 70s and apparently his surname rhymes with bone rather than ton.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I don't want to sack Parky, but it's more than a bit trite to throw out the boogeyman list.

People were asking for a list of potential managers, so I provided one. How people react to that is up to them. I did say it was just some of the English managers available, but the ones I omitted were ones I'd never heard of (League of Ireland, etc), not exciting prospects culled to prove a point.

The previous situations you cite were very different, agonisingly so. We could theoretically appoint a manager already in employment, but in all those situations we had a lot more money than we do now.

[Tombwfc]

I don't want to sack Parky, but it's more than a bit trite to throw out the boogeyman list.

People were asking for a list of potential managers, so I provided one. How people react to that is up to them. I did say it was just some of the English managers available, but the ones I omitted were ones I'd never heard of (League of Ireland, etc), not exciting prospects culled to prove a point.

The previous situations you cite were very different, agonisingly so. We could theoretically appoint a manager already in employment, but in all those situations we had a lot more money than we do now.

How did we have a lot more money when we appointed Parky? The wage bill was significantly higher, we were losing more money and the two owners had already fallen out.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I don't want to sack Parky, but it's more than a bit trite to throw out the boogeyman list.

People were asking for a list of potential managers, so I provided one. How people react to that is up to them. I did say it was just some of the English managers available, but the ones I omitted were ones I'd never heard of (League of Ireland, etc), not exciting prospects culled to prove a point.

The previous situations you cite were very different, agonisingly so. We could theoretically appoint a manager already in employment, but in all those situations we had a lot more money than we do now.

How did we have a lot more money when we appointed Parky? The wage bill was significantly higher, we were losing more money and the two owners had already fallen out.

Yeah, fair point - not that one. But in that instance, it's arguable that we represented a better chance of promotion than Bradford - what with that "championship" squad. I see what you're saying about appointing Coyle (who wanted to join a more established Premier League club) and Freedman (who wanted to make his family "secure" financially, ie was presumably offered a large wage). But Lennon was unemployed (and bought a dream), while Parkinson might have feared that he soon would be what with Bradford being bought by Foreigners From Abroad.

There's obviously a chance w could attract a manager in employment, but it would be very surprising indeed if it would be someone currently running a Championship club. So then you're down to "potential" managers unproven at this level, like Keith Hill or David Flitcroft or Christknowswho – and would they have the wherewithal to keep us up?

Trite or not, sometimes it's better to stick than twist, and I genuinely don't see anyone available or affordable. Obviously opinions change but at the moment I can't see a better alternative than Parky to either keep us up or give us a decent chance of getting back up next season (no automatic task: although WIgan have started well, I see Blackburn and Rotherham and below two teams who were in Division Four last season).

[BWFC_Insane]

Love the rumours about "someone" buying the club. There's been loads. It makes me laugh how its always someone relatively famous and well known. Warbies, Hilary Devey, Stelios etc etc....never some random agent or businessman you've never heard of before...

When clubs are actually bought its usually always someone you've never heard of before.

Nobody has yet articulated what a new manager could realistically change. Parky has tried every system, every combination of players....so how would any new manager change things in this situation? We also know he can organise a side. We still concede easily. So it isn't like we've got a fantasist as a manager and an organiser can come in and turn things round. Parky gets on with the players. He's not some mentalist who falls out with folk week in week out. Nor is he a soft touch. I'm struggling to see what any new manager could realistically change. There isn't a magic button to press. No point spending lots of money changing managers, re-building the squad again for no improvement. And possibly ending up with someone who can't get us back out of league one.....

[enrdentw]

I can't fathom why people are defending Parky...

Please can someone riddle me this;

Milwall and Burton both sit above us in the league, both promoted from L1 in the past two seasons, both have spent very little, used the loan and free markets to pull a squad together. This is the exact same scenario for Bolton who are the "biggest" club amongst the three. We need to acknowledge that performances have been diabolical, we can't score and we can't defend... how can Milwall and Burton be getting points when we can't...? It's not unfair to point the finger at the manager.

[Peter Thompson]

Love the rumours about "someone" buying the club. There's been loads. It makes me laugh how its always someone relatively famous and well known. Warbies, Hilary Devey, Stelios etc etc....never some random agent or businessman you've never heard of before...

When clubs are actually bought its usually always someone you've never heard of before.

Nobody has yet articulated what a new manager could realistically change. Parky has tried every system, every combination of players....so how would any new manager change things in this situation? We also know he can organise a side. We still concede easily. So it isn't like we've got a fantasist as a manager and an organiser can come in and turn things round. Parky gets on with the players. He's not some mentalist who falls out with folk week in week out. Nor is he a soft touch. I'm struggling to see what any new manager could realistically change. There isn't a magic button to press. No point spending lots of money changing managers, re-building the squad again for no improvement. And possibly ending up with someone who can't get us back out of league one.....

Go on then I'll bite:

This is this season not last, and based on my comments about him being out of his depth in the championship

1. Please give an example of how Parkinson can organise the side or has organised the side
2. Tried every system - has he really ?, this is bollocks, there are plenty of systems that he's not tried and you know it - one example
also has he tried not playing Madine & not just hoofing the ball at said Madine ?
3. Has he tried playing at a quicker tempo, has he tried a pressing game, has he tried playing a more attacking brand of football
4. Perhaps Parkinson gets on too well with the players - and they know that they can get away with poor performances ?
5. Perhaps a new manager (and his coaching staff) could get them working harder, get them fitter, tackling more, pressing better,
passing more accurately, shooting better, getting forward better & quicker supporting the forward or forwards

[enrdentw]

Point 5. Spot on.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Nobody has yet articulated what a new manager could realistically change.

Replacing the manager could - *could* - give a new-bloke bounce; momentum and inertia are strange concepts but there is a danger of the team settling into early acceptance of doom. New ideas and fresh energy can give a very welcome boost.

But, and it's a very very big but, the squad which is now 93% Parky's – of the 28 players listed on the Contract Expiry thread, only Prats and Amos didn't sign contracts or extensions under PP. So the new guy would eiother have to win over "Parky's men" - not impossible - or start his own rebuilding process, which isn't impossible either but does take time and money. He'd also have to be rebuilding for a dual future: Championship or League One.

In other words, we're either looking for someone who's an utterly brilliant *coach* and can maximise other people's underperforming players without spending a red cent, or we're looking at yet more ins and outs at a time when we've only just come out of embargo.

[Peter Thompson]

I can't fathom why people are defending Parky...

Please can someone riddle me this;

Milwall and Burton both sit above us in the league, both promoted from L1 in the past two seasons, both have spent very little, used the loan and free markets to pull a squad together. This is the exact same scenario for Bolton who are the "biggest" club amongst the three. We need to acknowledge that performances have been diabolical, we can't score and we can't defend... how can Milwall and Burton be getting points when we can't...? It's not unfair to point the finger at the manager.

Look its not Parkinson's fault that we can't defend, can't pass, can't run, can't tackle, can't attack, can't score....

No other manager anywhere in the world could get our players to do any of the above, come on be realistic - its just daft to expect any of our players to actually play football, no one could get them more fired up, organised, committed, hard working, working together as a team, more prolific, more creative than our Parky.

Just get used to it - forget this season because only Parky will get us back up next season when we go down, because he managed it last season with arguably the 2nd best squad in the league.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Maybe we could hire Mark Sampson, who's just been defenestrated at St George's Park

[Peter Thompson]

I may be wrong - but under Lennon I'm sure we were much better, more solid, more organised when he had Mjallby as his assistant manager - and didn't we start declining quite rapidly under Lennon once Mjallby left ?

Therefore perhaps before potting Parkinson's its his coaching staff that needs to change - what credentials or experience do Steve Parkin, Lee Butler have of working successfully in the championship, I'm sure they only coached at a lower level, I've also said it before perhaps he needs an attacking coach and / or a defensive coach to help....because we can't defend or attack.

[bristol_Wanderer3]

I can't fathom why people are defending Parky...

Please can someone riddle me this;

Milwall and Burton both sit above us in the league, both promoted from L1 in the past two seasons, both have spent very little, used the loan and free markets to pull a squad together. This is the exact same scenario for Bolton who are the "biggest" club amongst the three. We need to acknowledge that performances have been diabolical, we can't score and we can't defend... how can Milwall and Burton be getting points when we can't...? It's not unfair to point the finger at the manager.

Some points:

1.) For nearly 2 years we have been limited to a.) a squad of 23/24 players, b.) Not being able to pay a loan fee or a transfer fee c.) since July to paying a maximum wage of £4.5k pw to new recruits.

2.) Millwall - Have signed 8 players since the end of 2016/17. Jed Wallace, and George Saville they both paid a fee to Wolves for. Ryan Tunnicliffe and Jake Cooper are players with Championship experience signed from parachute payment receiving Fulham and Reading. Connor McLaughlin, James Meredith, Tom Elliott and David Martin are all L1 players who were out of contract at the end of 2016/17. McLaughlin, Meredith and Tunnicliffe were linked with us during the summer. It is likely that every one of these players are on more than £4.5k pw.

3.) Burton - Have signed Liam Boyce for £500k, Jamie Allen for £800k. They have signed players from parachute payment receiving Wigan in Stephen Warnock and Jake Buxton who are almost certainly on far in excess of £4.5k pw.

4.) To expand it further Birmingham have spent over £15m, Barnsley around £3m. Brentford have sold players for over £30m in the last 18 months, and have spent £1m - £3m on a number of their players.

So, in terms of this season we are as small as can be when it comes to attracting players. Millwall and Burton are massively bigger than we are in meaningful terms this season. And this why Parky deserves patience, but more importantly:

1.) There are few decent managers out there.
2.) Even if there is someone decent out there, we are still under EFL scrutiny and are still in financial intensive care. We proabably couldn't afford to pay off Parky and his staff, never mind to pay to attract a decent manager.
3.) It is unlikely any manager can do any better with this set of players. The players still appear to be playing for the manager. We have a poor squad for this level, it is as simple as that.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I may be wrong - but under Lennon I'm sure we were much better, more solid, more organised when he had Mjallby as his assistant manager - and didn't we start declining quite rapidly under Lennon once Mjallby left ?

This was a popular belief at the time, but it's not quite the whole truth. Steve Walford replaced Mjallby on 18 September 2015. We had won one of the previous 12 league games, 5 out of the previous 27 – hardly solid or organised. The defence had fallen apart once Lennon had come across fellow Ulsterman (and future Celtic boss) Brendan Rodgers at Liverpool in the Cup ties; Rodgers was a back-three evangelist, and Lennon decided to try it with our players. Fatefully, we somehow got an extraordinarily luckily draw at Anfield with it; fatally, Lennon took that as the signal that we should play it all the time, and it was utterly f*cking awful. Now, that might have been a system imposed by Lennon upon Mjallby, and for all we know the Swede might have protested long into the night and wept silent tears when his gaffer didn't listen, but the idea that we were impregnable until Mjallby left wasn't true then and isn't true now.

Therefore perhaps before potting Parkinson's its his coaching staff that needs to change - what credentials or experience do Steve Parkin, Lee Butler have of working successfully in the championship, I'm sure they only coached at a lower level, I've also said it before perhaps he needs an attacking coach and / or a defensive coach to help....because we can't defend or attack.

A fair question. For an assistant manager, Parkin (confusingly known as "Parky" to the players, who wouldn't call the boss that) is relatively experienced as a manager himself, with a decade as the manager at Mansfield, Barnsley and Rochdale. No, not Real Madrid, but most assistants tend to be faceless folks like Megson's Chris Evans and Coyle's Sandy Stewart. Parkin's management experience does include second-tier spell at Barnsley (2001/02), but not a happy one: the skint Tykes were in the drop zone when he took over in November 2001, and though they dragged themselves out with a 12-match unbeaten run, they went down on the last day. In the October they went into administration and he lost his job; after a while he returned to Rochdale, but he hasn't been a No.1 since 2006.

He was, however, Browny's first-team coach at Hull from January 2007 to summer 2010: 1.5 seasons in the second tier (avoiding relegation then getting promotion) and two years in the top flight – he was made joint-caretaker when Sunbed got shoved. Pearson took over in summer and brought his own men, and after a season at Scunny he joined Parky's Bradford.

Interestingly perhaps, we don't have a "first-team coach" as such: Lee Butler is a goalkeeping coach – rarely the difference between survival and extinction – while Tim Breacker is chief scout, Nick Allamby is head of sports science, Matt Barrass the physio. (In case of confusion between assistant manager and first-team coach: not all clubs have both, but where they do, the AM tends to be the manager's advisor/confidant/soundboard, while the FTC creates and carries out the training to carry the message to the players.) I'm assuming Parkin does the duties – he's the one running them through drills before games - while PP himself is still easily young enough to don the tracksuit and get involved midweek. I suppose there's a world in which the club appoint either a brilliant young coach or a wise old assistant, busting Parkin down to first-team coach and what the Arsenal players used to call the BBC job - Balls, Bibs & Cones.

[BWFC_Insane]

I can't fathom why people are defending Parky...

Please can someone riddle me this;

Milwall and Burton both sit above us in the league, both promoted from L1 in the past two seasons, both have spent very little, used the loan and free markets to pull a squad together. This is the exact same scenario for Bolton who are the "biggest" club amongst the three. We need to acknowledge that performances have been diabolical, we can't score and we can't defend... how can Milwall and Burton be getting points when we can't...? It's not unfair to point the finger at the manager.

Some points:

1.) For nearly 2 years we have been limited to a.) a squad of 23/24 players, b.) Not being able to pay a loan fee or a transfer fee c.) since July to paying a maximum wage of £4.5k pw to new recruits.

2.) Millwall - Have signed 8 players since the end of 2016/17. Jed Wallace, and George Saville they both paid a fee to Wolves for. Ryan Tunnicliffe and Jake Cooper are players with Championship experience signed from parachute payment receiving Fulham and Reading. Connor McLaughlin, James Meredith, Tom Elliott and David Martin are all L1 players who were out of contract at the end of 2016/17. McLaughlin, Meredith and Tunnicliffe were linked with us during the summer. It is likely that every one of these players are on more than £4.5k pw.

3.) Burton - Have signed Liam Boyce for £500k, Jamie Allen for £800k. They have signed players from parachute payment receiving Wigan in Stephen Warnock and Jake Buxton who are almost certainly on far in excess of £4.5k pw.

4.) To expand it further Birmingham have spent over £15m, Barnsley around £3m. Brentford have sold players for over £30m in the last 18 months, and have spent £1m - £3m on a number of their players.

So, in terms of this season we are as small as can be when it comes to attracting players. Millwall and Burton are massively bigger than we are in meaningful terms this season. And this why Parky deserves patience, but more importantly:

1.) There are few decent managers out there.
2.) Even if there is someone decent out there, we are still under EFL scrutiny and are still in financial intensive care. We proabably couldn't afford to pay off Parky and his staff, never mind to pay to attract a decent manager.
3.) It is unlikely any manager can do any better with this set of players. The players still appear to be playing for the manager. We have a poor squad for this level, it is as simple as that.

This is a very good post.

There are lots of "but Millwall". Millwall signed Meredith and McLaughlin. Two players Parky wanted. We couldn't afford them.

People simply can't get their head around us being the smallest fish in this pond. In terms of ability to go and sign quality we are behind every single other team in this division. Or we were up to this point. As it stands we don't know how much potential we have to improve things.

Anyhow, we're bottom because often the ability you have to add quality is telling. Madine looks our best striker. Certainly the only one who looks dangerous. Is he championship quality? Is Morais, Darby, Beevers, Wheater etc etc...to me we have a lot of players in between league one and championship level. I think we lack the balance in the squad to compete also.

Sure, we're not a million miles off Millwall/Burton etc...but lets face it we've had several key players out. And we're 8 games in. We may well finish with a very similar points tally to those sorts of clubs. If you look over the last 3 years every single side in this league has had more investment into its first team than we have. Eventually that catches up with you.

The reason we're poor is because we're playing better sides. Jordan Rhodes cost Sheffield Wednesday more than our entire squad did to assemble. Considerably more. A player who sits on the bench most weeks cost a team in this league more money than we've spent in the past 5 seasons combined. Not sure how else this can be made clear. We're the minnows. And are bottom because probably thats roughly where our quality puts us. Give or take a place or two depending on a bit of luck with injuries and some breaks here and there along the way.

[Prufrock]

Nowhere near the sacking stage for me. The last 5 appointments before him presided over a slow painful slump that Parky has been the first to turn around. Suggests to me that a roll of the dice is much more likely to land on another Dougie than an Allardyce.

Parky we have seen is at least competent. He did a very good job last year. Yes he had access to players almost no other club did, but the club was a shambles and he had to put together basically 4 different teams due to transfers and injuries.

Only way for me he shouldn't be in charge next season is if we go down with a whimper. Even relegation but with a fight would probably be enough for me to think he deserves another pop getting us back up.

For a squad so light on attacking quality, to have Vela and Ameobi out for all but 90 mins combined is very tough.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

For a squad so light on attacking quality, to have Vela and Ameobi out for all but 90 mins combined is very tough.

There's the rub. It may be wishful (hopeful?) thinking but it's possible the return of those two might have a better effect than changing the manager. Sammy's inconsistent but if he can rumble on after an hour on Saturday it'll give the place a huge lift; let's just hope we're not behind by then.

Simply not enough goals in the team unless players like Vela and Ameobi can add a few along the way. We won't be able to afford an upgrade on Madine, while ALF is the type of striker who needs to be played with a partner - which might explain why he was available for us.