Release or retain?

[palindromeofbolton]

With Ken already talking about contracts, I've had a think about where we sit after Sunday and have gone clicky clicky on ten:

Alnwick: I recall the chat about this earlier in the thread, but for me there's other positions to be investing in before the No 1 shirt. Would let Howard to go free up funds, working on the basis there's Turner, plus maybe a cheap oldster drafted in for extra back-up.
Wheavers: There's been question marks, yes, but I'd retain them on the basis you've at least got a know-where-you-are-with-them pairing to build on. As per earlier comments, I wouldn't be against DD staying as cover, but suspect he'll be going - and I'd certainly be looking to upgrade in this area anyway, rather that make to and mending.
Henry: Has earned it, imo, and gives us continuity. But, as per previous comments, it would be a one-year deal with a view to him taking more of a supporting role - provided we can find a longer-term upgrade
Kirchhoff: It might cost Ken £1m a year in bubble wrap alone, but, injury risk aside, I think Kirschoff could be immense for us. Is also eight years younger than Henry!
Morais: Probably one that could go either way in terms of whether he'll get a new contract, but for me he still offers us something and I'd be offering another year.
Ameobi: Frustrating as he can often be, we need his creativity as a platform if we're going to make a go of dropping hoofball tactics. At 26, he's also one we could lay down longer-term foundations with - and from Ken's point of view, he'd become a sellable asset if he can get him on 2+ years.
Perry/King/Hall: Simply on the basis of their age, in all honesty (therefore potential, plus, cheap). I trust in DL/PP to decide who's for keeping, who'd benefit from a loan spell, and who's not ultimately going to hack it in the long run.

Excluding the three youngsters (but including Turner, though not Amos) that's a bear-bones foundation of 15 players.

Released:
Howard: As per reasoning above. And especially if Amos can't be shifted or loaned out again.
Pratley: (Not inconceivable he's offered another year on significantly-reduced terms - not sure how many options he has at 33) but 14k pw can't be used more wisely.
Derik: Has never found his place. Again, 8k a week can be spent more wisely.
Dervite: Probably down to something like 5 or 6k pw and not against the idea of him staying as back-up, but I'd be looking at longer-term upgrading of the CB position
Karacan: The way this season's gone for him, I can't see past both club and player agreeing it's time for him to move on.
Wilbraham: After Sunday, I think his work here is done - a 38-year old bit-part player surely can't be part of any plans if we're to be serious about laying foundations and looking up rather than down.
C Taylor: Erm... Thanks, Chris.
Obasi: His injuries and the lukewarm response from PP can only suggest he'll be out the door

Very very roughly, I'd say that's around 45k pw to play with to go "upgrading" with, working on the basis the wage budget will be the same for 18/19, if not trimmed a bit again. Doesn't include loan deals, of course, which will be the solution on some fronts but really I'd like to see us putting down some roots for our outlay.

[BWFC_Insane]

It all depends on money. Without investment we're in big trouble. With some modest money to spend we need better than several of our current squad.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Ah good, I was wondering about doing a vote like this and then started to wonder if I'd already done it

For the record: if you voted before, you can change your mind.

As per the Contract Expiry thread Ben Amos, Jake Turner, Mark Little, Stephen Darby, Andrew Taylor, Josh Vela, Will Buckley, Craig Noone and Adam Le Fondre all have another year left.

Last summer, Wheater, Dervite, Karacan and Morais all signed one-year deals with optional extensions, so some of them may have been triggered by appearances. (Wheats made 32+1 league appearances and 1+1 in the cups; Morais 17+16 league, 2+2 cups; Karacan 14+2, 1+1; Dervite 13+1, 1+1.)

Anyway, from facts to opinions. I'd release Howard (promoting Turner) and Dervite if we get a better replacement. (Releasing those two at the same time could also prompt the headline "Howard, Dervite, Oh!") Derik, Chris Taylor, Wilbraham and Obasi can also go, and Karacan if Parky doesn't fancy it – no point wasting the wage. And unless he's on a very significantly reduced wage, it might be time for Darren to go.

Alex Perry and Jeff King I don't know – Perry's only 20 but King turns 23 in December so it's time he was impressing at a bigger club than FCUM.

To stay: Alnwick and Beevers for sure. I'd offer Wheats another year, and I'd also consider Jon Flanagan if Liverpool release him and he doesn't want daft wages. Karl Henry and Jan Kirchhoff would be risks, and in Jan's case I doubt Parky will take that risk; pity, but if the guy's made of cardboard there's nowt much we can do and Henry might have to stay, especially if Jan and D-Pratz go. Morais, Ameobi and Connor Hall stay.

[BWFC_Insane]

Also we need to know about club ownership, money available and manager. All seem up in the air right now, if tabloid stories are anything to go by.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Also we need to know about club ownership, money available and manager. All seem up in the air right now, if tabloid stories are anything to go by.

Yeah, true, and there's no point wasting money if we're going to change owners (who then may also want to change managers), but there's only so long we can wait. We've got 19 blokes who are now essentially unemployed and working out seven weeks' notice. Their agents will be busy and if we sit on our hands we may find ourselves severely understaffed: at the moment we've got nine players contracted for next year, and two of them are goalkeepers, and one of those is Amos. If Ken can't find investment and drags his feet on signing contracts, so Parky decides he's had enough, we could end up in a right old state.

[Harry Genshaw]

Aye we need the budget's sorting asap so we can get some of our business done early. There may be bargains to be had late August but we don't want to be scrambling around for 6 or 7 new faces then.

Centre half, 2 centre mids and a target man got to be a priority if we can get one or two of the current bunch to re-sign

[BWFC_Insane]

Also we need to know about club ownership, money available and manager. All seem up in the air right now, if tabloid stories are anything to go by.

Yeah, true, and there's no point wasting money if we're going to change owners (who then may also want to change managers), but there's only so long we can wait. We've got 19 blokes who are now essentially unemployed and working out seven weeks' notice. Their agents will be busy and if we sit on our hands we may find ourselves severely understaffed: at the moment we've got nine players contracted for next year, and two of them are goalkeepers, and one of those is Amos. If Ken can't find investment and drags his feet on signing contracts, so Parky decides he's had enough, we could end up in a right old state.

Agreed. However, I think given investment = a chance and no investment = very likely relegation as it stands, its worth trying to maximise our chances of investment. If that means holding off for a few weeks then so be it.

In the cold light of day, as amazing as Sunday was, I fear that we once again go into a summer needing to do far too much on and off the pitch to have a decent chance next season. Things need sorting quickly and stuff like investment/ownership tends to never happen quickly. See how the Wigan takeover has rumbled on for well over 6 months and that was meant to be relatively simple.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Also we need to know about club ownership, money available and manager. All seem up in the air right now, if tabloid stories are anything to go by.

Yeah, true, and there's no point wasting money if we're going to change owners (who then may also want to change managers), but there's only so long we can wait. We've got 19 blokes who are now essentially unemployed and working out seven weeks' notice. Their agents will be busy and if we sit on our hands we may find ourselves severely understaffed: at the moment we've got nine players contracted for next year, and two of them are goalkeepers, and one of those is Amos. If Ken can't find investment and drags his feet on signing contracts, so Parky decides he's had enough, we could end up in a right old state.

(...)given investment = a chance and no investment = very likely relegation as it stands, its worth trying to maximise our chances of investment. If that means holding off for a few weeks then so be it.

In the cold light of day, as amazing as Sunday was, I fear that we once again go into a summer needing to do far too much on and off the pitch to have a decent chance next season. Things need sorting quickly and stuff like investment/ownership tends to never happen quickly. See how the Wigan takeover has rumbled on for well over 6 months and that was meant to be relatively simple.

Yep. We're in agreement that we shouldn't act now but can't wait forever. Could be a weird summer.

I've put some quotes on the Ken thread, as it seems the most relevant place.

[Bijou Bob]

Blimey, I'm very surprised to see Ameobi get so many votes. A Newcastle fan I spoke to last week reckons he'll have two or three good games when he needs a new contract, then make no effort. A Middlesborough fan I spoke to some while ago now summed him up by saying "You'll get 2 flashes of genius in a season, surrounded by inconsistency" He's done very little to earn a new deal for me.

Personally, I'd keep but loan out Hall and King and give our 2 centre backs and Morais new deals, if they don't get better offers elsewhere. Aside from that, I reckon we need to build from scratch.

As an aside, I've been wondering whether Spearing's appearances as a supporter this season are a sign that a deal has been put in place for next year?

[BWFC_Insane]

Blimey, I'm very surprised to see Ameobi get so many votes. A Newcastle fan I spoke to last week reckons he'll have two or three good games when he needs a new contract, then make no effort. A Middlesborough fan I spoke to some while ago now summed him up by saying "You'll get 2 flashes of genius in a season, surrounded by inconsistency" He's done very little to earn a new deal for me.

Personally, I'd keep but loan out Hall and King and give our 2 centre backs and Morais new deals, if they don't get better offers elsewhere. Aside from that, I reckon we need to build from scratch.

Ameobi was knackered towards the end of the season. Puffing his inhaler...

Not having that he wasn't trying. See his reaction when Wilbraham scored. He can do things that are special. I think his consistency is a huge issue, but again, without big bucks, we won't get better.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

On Ameobi, I get the distinct impression his deal for this season was a bit conditional - let's see if it works again, and maybe by next summer we can offer you a bit more more money. I like Sammy but I can understand why people would question whether he's worth a significant slice of our wage bill. Nobody's stats were good this year bar Madine, but in 35 league games Sammy got 4 goals and 2 assists; last year in 20 league games he got 2 goals and 1 assist. Personally I'd keep him and I agree that his lack of input can be due to physical inability rather than lack of desire, but likesay I can understand the question.

[BWFC_Insane]

On Ameobi, I get the distinct impression his deal for this season was a bit conditional - let's see if it works again, and maybe by next summer we can offer you a bit more more money. I like Sammy but I can understand why people would question whether he's worth a significant slice of our wage bill. Nobody's stats were good this year bar Madine, but in 35 league games Sammy got 4 goals and 2 assists; last year in 20 league games he got 2 goals and 1 assist. Personally I'd keep him and I agree that his lack of input can be due to physical inability rather than lack of desire, but likesay I can understand the question.

If you use goals and assists as a measure then all our attacking players failed and should go...

I'd not entirely disagree either. But I think its about recruiting quality in. Ameobi perhaps if given a few rests would be in better shape throughout. But we need the squad to allow for that.

[jmjhb]

May have been said already but we need to get the squad by the Friday before the first day of the season as opposed to the end of August. That's exactly 3 months I think so time is of the essence.

However the loan market is still open till the end of August and you'd think we would make extensive use of that.

[Prufrock]

My updated version...

I'd keep:

Beevers
Wheater
Flanagan
Henry
King
Ameobi
Hall

I'd release (in order of how keen I am to get rid running down to who I wouldn't mind staying):

Derik
Chris Taylor
Obasi
Howard
Wilbraham (coach, or £10 a week third choice)
Pratley
Kirchoff (PAYP)
Karacan
Alnwick
Morais
Dervite


No idea on Perry.

[BWFC_Insane]

My updated version...

I'd keep:

Beevers
Wheater
Flanagan
Henry
King
Ameobi
Hall

I'd release (in order of how keen I am to get rid running down to who I wouldn't mind staying):

Derik
Chris Taylor
Obasi
Howard
Wilbraham (coach, or £10 a week third choice)
Pratley
Kirchoff (PAYP)
Karacan
Alnwick
Morais
Dervite


No idea on Perry.

Not sure on Beevers, is he good enough?

I'd have Pratley back over Flanagan myself. Pratley is a decent midfield player who covers ground. We absolutely must get better but we need more midfield options to prevent us running out of legs again.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Interesting. Does that mean you'd rather keep King than Ameobi, or is that bit not in preference order?

Albi was supposed to be player-coach at Bristol City but the latter bit was dropped when he came here. Not saying he couldn't help out, and he's expressed a preference to play until he's 40 (next year, then), but if he gets involved in the youth set-ups here that affects his Saturday availability. I reckon he'll end up at a Rochdale/Oldham/Bury, coaching but also standby striker. And good luck to him.

BWFCi - if you think you can get Pru to recognise The Necessity Of Pratley, you're more insane than I thought

[BWFC_Insane]

Interesting. Does that mean you'd rather keep King than Ameobi, or is that bit not in preference order?

Albi was supposed to be player-coach at Bristol City but the latter bit was dropped when he came here. Not saying he couldn't help out, and he's expressed a preference to play until he's 40 (next year, then), but if he gets involved in the youth set-ups here that affects his Saturday availability. I reckon he'll end up at a Rochdale/Oldham/Bury, coaching but also standby striker. And good luck to him.

BWFCi - if you think you can get Pru to recognise The Necessity Of Pratley, you're more insane than I thought

He's not a necessity. But I think he's good at getting round the pitch and you do need those types. We just have to recruit other types too. Pratley as a squad player is decent enough for me.

Wilbraham - a hero. But surely we're passed the point of giving him another playing deal? IF we need a coach for the kids he seems like the right sort. But beyond that, if we sign him again in the cold light of day it would be desperately disappointing. Sorry Albi - if you're ever at the Macron for a day out I imagine there will be 20 odd thousand queuing up to buy you a pint though!

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

BWFCi - if you think you can get Pru to recognise The Necessity Of Pratley, you're more insane than I thought

He's not a necessity. But I think he's good at getting round the pitch and you do need those types. We just have to recruit other types too. Pratley as a squad player is decent enough for me.

Wilbraham - a hero. But surely we're passed the point of giving him another playing deal? IF we need a coach for the kids he seems like the right sort. But beyond that, if we sign him again in the cold light of day it would be desperately disappointing. Sorry Albi - if you're ever at the Macron for a day out I imagine there will be 20 odd thousand queuing up to buy you a pint though!

For the record (and for once!) I agree with you... mostly. Pratley's energy could be useful but he's 33 now. If it's a one-year deal on a 50% wage drop then maybe, but would he take that? And would we really want to retain both Henry and Pratley? For me, if we keep both it's a worrying sign. While there's always room for an older head the squad needs to rejuvenate, literally and metaphorically. I mean, I can't quite believe you're not on a leg-pull when you imply you'd let Beevers go but keep both of those.

So no, no Albi either. For his sake or ours. He'd be much better getting his badges and maybe 8-10 starts for say Rochdale. Shouldn't be near a Championship first-team squad next season.

[BWFC_Insane]

BWFCi - if you think you can get Pru to recognise The Necessity Of Pratley, you're more insane than I thought

He's not a necessity. But I think he's good at getting round the pitch and you do need those types. We just have to recruit other types too. Pratley as a squad player is decent enough for me.

Wilbraham - a hero. But surely we're passed the point of giving him another playing deal? IF we need a coach for the kids he seems like the right sort. But beyond that, if we sign him again in the cold light of day it would be desperately disappointing. Sorry Albi - if you're ever at the Macron for a day out I imagine there will be 20 odd thousand queuing up to buy you a pint though!

For the record (and for once!) I agree with you... mostly. Pratley's energy could be useful but he's 33 now. If it's a one-year deal on a 50% wage drop then maybe, but would he take that? And would we really want to retain both Henry and Pratley? For me, if we keep both it's a worrying sign. While there's always room for an older head the squad needs to rejuvenate, literally and metaphorically. I mean, I can't quite believe you're not on a leg-pull when you imply you'd let Beevers go but keep both of those.

So no, no Albi either. For his sake or ours. He'd be much better getting his badges and maybe 8-10 starts for say Rochdale. Shouldn't be near a Championship first-team squad next season.

I questioned Beevers rather than said release him. He's struggled this season truth be told.

Pratley and Henry come down to money. As you say as cheaper deals as cover ok. Otherwise sure, they can go. (Assuming we do have money to get better).

[Prufrock]

The keeps list isn't in any order. Sammy would be pretty near the top of my keeps.

Beevers has struggled but I've said keep on the basis I'm assuming he's cheap and I think he'd be fine as back up. If they're good enough to be back up and will take those wages I'd keep them as something to be said for continuity when there's going to be hopefully a lot of changes. Which brings me to..

I thought I was being pretty magnanimous putting Darren so low down my list of those to kick out the door.

On one hand, there are going to be a lot of changes this summer, so i could maybe see the logic in a one year deal on 4th choice wages.

On the other hand I fecking hate him and can't wait until the useless bastard is out the door.

So it's tough.