Release or retain?

Where fellow sufferers gather to share the pain, longing and unrequited transfer requests that make being a Wanderer what it is...

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Who would you offer a contract for next season?

Poll ended at Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:32 pm

Mark Howard
3
1%
Ben Alnwick
38
9%
Mark Beevers
35
8%
David Wheater
37
9%
Dorian Dervite
15
4%
Jon Flanagan
26
6%
Derik Osede
9
2%
Karl Henry
35
8%
Darren Pratley
21
5%
Jan Kirchhoff
29
7%
Alex Perry
14
3%
Jem Karacan
17
4%
Jeff King
19
5%
Filipe Morais
34
8%
Chris Taylor
0
No votes
Sammy Ameobi
41
10%
Aaron Wilbraham
8
2%
Chinedu Obasi
8
2%
Connor Hall
28
7%
 
Total votes: 417

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Re: Release or retain?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:45 pm

I rate Zach, but he's at that stage in his career where he can't rely on being "the kid" and needs to prove himself in training and matches like any other senior pro. Plenty of players struggle when they go from being a bit coddled to having real demands placed on them. I think he showed plenty when he first came back, but other players (like ALF) have really put a shift in and Clough will have to earn his spot like anyone else. Football fans love a good conspiracy theory, so we could always pretend he's being made to look like he can't cut it so Forest will cut their losses and let us have him back on the cheap next year. It might make a few feel better that he's struggled to make his mark on loan.

On the Parky "hit or miss" thing, I'd not rate any manager operating under the constraints we currently have at Bolton. I'm also not sure how much of the transfer stuff is down to Parkinson and how much is done on the "suggestion" of Ken. Certainly a couple of the deals that Parky seems to have played a major role in (the odd former player of his or a guy brought in for his character) have looked like poor choices - but all in all we are making a fist of it against the odds, so fair enough. Even in ideal circumstances clubs make howlers in the market and we are operating a long way from ideal anything at the moment. I find it hard to complain.

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Re: Release or retain?

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:52 pm

For sure (to both of you). He's operated with at least one arm tied behind his back, and he's done a damn fine job. As Pru notes, most of the misses made sense at the time: Proctor as alternative target man to the hitherto underwhelming Madine, Wilbraham as cover, C Taylor as a reasonable third-tier winger who'd put in a shift, Buxton as an experienced and versatile defender, Darby as a trusted former lieutenant, etc. And all for nowt. I can only applaud all that, but as W. Bragg once wrote, "you are judged by your actions and not by your pretensions", and there's a few for whom the move hasn't worked out. Sadly, at the moment, Zach's in that list. Doesn't make the transfer idiotic, the manager a moron or the player a has-been.

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Re: Release or retain?

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:07 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:52 pm
For sure (to both of you). He's operated with at least one arm tied behind his back, and he's done a damn fine job. As Pru notes, most of the misses made sense at the time: Proctor as alternative target man to the hitherto underwhelming Madine, Wilbraham as cover, C Taylor as a reasonable third-tier winger who'd put in a shift, Buxton as an experienced and versatile defender, Darby as a trusted former lieutenant, etc. And all for nowt. I can only applaud all that, but as W. Bragg once wrote, "you are judged by your -actions and not by your pretensions", and there's a few for whom the move hasn't worked out. Sadly, at the moment, Zach's in that list. Doesn't make the transfer idiotic, the manager a moron or the player a has-been.
It may well not make the transfer idiotic etc., but the transfer surely is idiotic if the manager insists on being a moron by being pretentious/cliquee/whatever,by deliberately refusing to entertain playing the player and therefore causing the player to be consigned to the has-been bin.
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Re: Release or retain?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:45 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:07 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:52 pm
For sure (to both of you). He's operated with at least one arm tied behind his back, and he's done a damn fine job. As Pru notes, most of the misses made sense at the time: Proctor as alternative target man to the hitherto underwhelming Madine, Wilbraham as cover, C Taylor as a reasonable third-tier winger who'd put in a shift, Buxton as an experienced and versatile defender, Darby as a trusted former lieutenant, etc. And all for nowt. I can only applaud all that, but as W. Bragg once wrote, "you are judged by your -actions and not by your pretensions", and there's a few for whom the move hasn't worked out. Sadly, at the moment, Zach's in that list. Doesn't make the transfer idiotic, the manager a moron or the player a has-been.
It may well not make the transfer idiotic etc., but the transfer surely is idiotic if the manager insists on being a moron by being pretentious/cliquee/whatever,by deliberately refusing to entertain playing the player and therefore causing the player to be consigned to the has-been bin.
Is there a reason you think that's what is going on, rather than Parky thinking ALF is playing fairly well at the minute and not wanting to play two midgets up front?

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Re: Release or retain?

Post by Prufrock » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:27 pm

Zach can't play as the one up top, totally not his game. I was surprised Buckley got the nod over him when we went back to a back four but hey what do I know. Results and performances have been good and Buckley has done all right.
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Re: Release or retain?

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:20 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:45 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:07 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:52 pm
For sure (to both of you). He's operated with at least one arm tied behind his back, and he's done a damn fine job. As Pru notes, most of the misses made sense at the time: Proctor as alternative target man to the hitherto underwhelming Madine, Wilbraham as cover, C Taylor as a reasonable third-tier winger who'd put in a shift, Buxton as an experienced and versatile defender, Darby as a trusted former lieutenant, etc. And all for nowt. I can only applaud all that, but as W. Bragg once wrote, "you are judged by your -actions and not by your pretensions", and there's a few for whom the move hasn't worked out. Sadly, at the moment, Zach's in that list. Doesn't make the transfer idiotic, the manager a moron or the player a has-been.
It may well not make the transfer idiotic etc., but the transfer surely is idiotic if the manager insists on being a moron by being pretentious/cliquee/whatever,by deliberately refusing to entertain playing the player and therefore causing the player to be consigned to the has-been bin.
Is there a reason you think that's what is going on, rather than Parky thinking ALF is playing fairly well at the minute and not wanting to play two midgets up front?
I know nothing, I have no inside knowledge. I just find the entire team selection process to be beyond opaque recently.
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Re: Release or retain?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:29 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:07 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:52 pm
For sure (to both of you). He's operated with at least one arm tied behind his back, and he's done a damn fine job. As Pru notes, most of the misses made sense at the time: Proctor as alternative target man to the hitherto underwhelming Madine, Wilbraham as cover, C Taylor as a reasonable third-tier winger who'd put in a shift, Buxton as an experienced and versatile defender, Darby as a trusted former lieutenant, etc. And all for nowt. I can only applaud all that, but as W. Bragg once wrote, "you are judged by your -actions and not by your pretensions", and there's a few for whom the move hasn't worked out. Sadly, at the moment, Zach's in that list. Doesn't make the transfer idiotic, the manager a moron or the player a has-been.
It may well not make the transfer idiotic etc., but the transfer surely is idiotic if the manager insists on being a moron by being pretentious/cliquee/whatever,by deliberately refusing to entertain playing the player and therefore causing the player to be consigned to the has-been bin.
3 managers at championship sides have concluded he wasn't good enough for their first team regularly. One of those managers spent a good amount of money on him.

Perhaps the reality is, he's just not good enough to play regularly at this level in his current form?

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Re: Release or retain?

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:22 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:29 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:07 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:52 pm
For sure (to both of you). He's operated with at least one arm tied behind his back, and he's done a damn fine job. As Pru notes, most of the misses made sense at the time: Proctor as alternative target man to the hitherto underwhelming Madine, Wilbraham as cover, C Taylor as a reasonable third-tier winger who'd put in a shift, Buxton as an experienced and versatile defender, Darby as a trusted former lieutenant, etc. And all for nowt. I can only applaud all that, but as W. Bragg once wrote, "you are judged by your -actions and not by your pretensions", and there's a few for whom the move hasn't worked out. Sadly, at the moment, Zach's in that list. Doesn't make the transfer idiotic, the manager a moron or the player a has-been.
It may well not make the transfer idiotic etc., but the transfer surely is idiotic if the manager insists on being a moron by being pretentious/cliquee/whatever,by deliberately refusing to entertain playing the player and therefore causing the player to be consigned to the has-been bin.
3 managers at championship sides have concluded he wasn't good enough for their first team regularly. One of those managers spent a good amount of money on him.

Perhaps the reality is, he's just not good enough to play regularly at this level in his current form?
Which just emphasises my point that the transfer was idiotic then, does it not?
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Re: Release or retain?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:43 am

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:22 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:29 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:07 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:52 pm
For sure (to both of you). He's operated with at least one arm tied behind his back, and he's done a damn fine job. As Pru notes, most of the misses made sense at the time: Proctor as alternative target man to the hitherto underwhelming Madine, Wilbraham as cover, C Taylor as a reasonable third-tier winger who'd put in a shift, Buxton as an experienced and versatile defender, Darby as a trusted former lieutenant, etc. And all for nowt. I can only applaud all that, but as W. Bragg once wrote, "you are judged by your -actions and not by your pretensions", and there's a few for whom the move hasn't worked out. Sadly, at the moment, Zach's in that list. Doesn't make the transfer idiotic, the manager a moron or the player a has-been.
It may well not make the transfer idiotic etc., but the transfer surely is idiotic if the manager insists on being a moron by being pretentious/cliquee/whatever,by deliberately refusing to entertain playing the player and therefore causing the player to be consigned to the has-been bin.
3 managers at championship sides have concluded he wasn't good enough for their first team regularly. One of those managers spent a good amount of money on him.

Perhaps the reality is, he's just not good enough to play regularly at this level in his current form?
Which just emphasises my point that the transfer was idiotic then, does it not?
Not really when you examine the circumstances. It was last minute, grab whoever you can to make up numbers. Having already worked with Clough Parky had and still has a chance to bring him back to form. We wouldn't have gone for him had the Chungy deal not fallen through at the last minute.

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Re: Release or retain?

Post by Harry Genshaw » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:16 am

Pity that re CYL. Is he out of contract in the summer? Could we get him on a cheap deal late August when his agent realises there's no other takers?
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Re: Release or retain?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:40 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:16 am
Pity that re CYL. Is he out of contract in the summer? Could we get him on a cheap deal late August when his agent realises there's no other takers?
If we stay up and Ken gets investment why not? If one or both of those things doesn't happen, then not a cat in hell's chance.

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Re: Release or retain?

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:18 pm

CYL's contract does expire this summer, but I'd say the main reason he considered coming to us was to maximise his chance of getting in Korea's World Cup squad. No such jeopardy exists for him next season, and I'd imagine he'd have better offers elsewhere.

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Re: Release or retain?

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:24 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:43 am
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:22 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:29 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:07 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:52 pm
For sure (to both of you). He's operated with at least one arm tied behind his back, and he's done a damn fine job. As Pru notes, most of the misses made sense at the time: Proctor as alternative target man to the hitherto underwhelming Madine, Wilbraham as cover, C Taylor as a reasonable third-tier winger who'd put in a shift, Buxton as an experienced and versatile defender, Darby as a trusted former lieutenant, etc. And all for nowt. I can only applaud all that, but as W. Bragg once wrote, "you are judged by your -actions and not by your pretensions", and there's a few for whom the move hasn't worked out. Sadly, at the moment, Zach's in that list. Doesn't make the transfer idiotic, the manager a moron or the player a has-been.
It may well not make the transfer idiotic etc., but the transfer surely is idiotic if the manager insists on being a moron by being pretentious/cliquee/whatever,by deliberately refusing to entertain playing the player and therefore causing the player to be consigned to the has-been bin.
3 managers at championship sides have concluded he wasn't good enough for their first team regularly. One of those managers spent a good amount of money on him.

Perhaps the reality is, he's just not good enough to play regularly at this level in his current form?
Which just emphasises my point that the transfer was idiotic then, does it not?
Not really when you examine the circumstances. It was last minute, grab whoever you can to make up numbers. Having already worked with Clough Parky had and still has a chance to bring him back to form. We wouldn't have gone for him had the Chungy deal not fallen through at the last minute.
For Fxcking Fxck Sake!.
Last minute, grab who you can, to make up numbers - and then don't use him. That's the very very very definition of an idiotic transfer - especially when you factor in the 'fact' that he was officially shit already by your definition that two other managers thought he was not good enough to play...
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Re: Release or retain?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:04 am

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:24 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:43 am
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:22 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:29 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:07 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:52 pm
For sure (to both of you). He's operated with at least one arm tied behind his back, and he's done a damn fine job. As Pru notes, most of the misses made sense at the time: Proctor as alternative target man to the hitherto underwhelming Madine, Wilbraham as cover, C Taylor as a reasonable third-tier winger who'd put in a shift, Buxton as an experienced and versatile defender, Darby as a trusted former lieutenant, etc. And all for nowt. I can only applaud all that, but as W. Bragg once wrote, "you are judged by your -actions and not by your pretensions", and there's a few for whom the move hasn't worked out. Sadly, at the moment, Zach's in that list. Doesn't make the transfer idiotic, the manager a moron or the player a has-been.
It may well not make the transfer idiotic etc., but the transfer surely is idiotic if the manager insists on being a moron by being pretentious/cliquee/whatever,by deliberately refusing to entertain playing the player and therefore causing the player to be consigned to the has-been bin.
3 managers at championship sides have concluded he wasn't good enough for their first team regularly. One of those managers spent a good amount of money on him.

Perhaps the reality is, he's just not good enough to play regularly at this level in his current form?
Which just emphasises my point that the transfer was idiotic then, does it not?
Not really when you examine the circumstances. It was last minute, grab whoever you can to make up numbers. Having already worked with Clough Parky had and still has a chance to bring him back to form. We wouldn't have gone for him had the Chungy deal not fallen through at the last minute.
For Fxcking Fxck Sake!.
Last minute, grab who you can, to make up numbers - and then don't use him. That's the very very very definition of an idiotic transfer - especially when you factor in the 'fact' that he was officially shit already by your definition that two other managers thought he was not good enough to play...
You have an hour left in a window where you've lost your top scorer and feel that you are light on attacking options. Of course you're going to take Clough even if he's not in form and probably not the ideal player you'd choose.

He's scored a crucial goal already against Sunderland. So by that fact alone he's probably paid back whatever wages we're contributing, assuming we stay up.

The idea as Parky said was to rebuild his confidence and get his form back. There is still time for that, but equally we can't just play him off form ahead of in form players. So there is a balance.

The argument that we should only sign players who play every week, doesn't make sense. You need a squad and options.

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Re: Release or retain?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:08 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:18 pm
CYL's contract does expire this summer, but I'd say the main reason he considered coming to us was to maximise his chance of getting in Korea's World Cup squad. No such jeopardy exists for him next season, and I'd imagine he'd have better offers elsewhere.
This strikes me as spot on. Chungy does have a soft spot for Wanderers and he's a cut above this division, but I can't see him taking the level of pay cut required to join us on a permanent deal. If he did, then I'd be thrilled - but you'd have to say it looks unlikely.

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Re: Release or retain?

Post by Bruce Rioja » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:09 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:08 pm
Chungy does have a soft spot for Wanderers and he's a cut above this division,
Really? He can't get in a shite side who are currently 'a cut above this division'.

I think he's very much a 2nd division player, albeit a very good one.
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Re: Release or retain?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:52 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:09 am
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:08 pm
Chungy does have a soft spot for Wanderers and he's a cut above this division,
Really? He can't get in a shite side who are currently 'a cut above this division'.

I think he's very much a 2nd division player, albeit a very good one.
Really. He was a good player for us in the Prem and he was too good for this division in a shocking Bolton side. He's a decent Premier League player. He lacks pace, which is why he's not featuring for Palace with the way they play football. He'd be better suited to France or Italy, to be honest, rather than the Prem - but he is a level above the Championship.

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Re: Release or retain?

Post by Bruce Rioja » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:32 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:52 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:09 am
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:08 pm
Chungy does have a soft spot for Wanderers and he's a cut above this division,
Really? He can't get in a shite side who are currently 'a cut above this division'.

I think he's very much a 2nd division player, albeit a very good one.
Really. He was a good player for us in the Prem and he was too good for this division in a shocking Bolton side. He's a decent Premier League player. He lacks pace, which is why he's not featuring for Palace with the way they play football. He'd be better suited to France or Italy, to be honest, rather than the Prem - but he is a level above the Championship.
To be honest, Fella - I disagree :)
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Re: Release or retain?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:58 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:32 pm
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:52 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:09 am
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:08 pm
Chungy does have a soft spot for Wanderers and he's a cut above this division,
Really? He can't get in a shite side who are currently 'a cut above this division'.

I think he's very much a 2nd division player, albeit a very good one.
Really. He was a good player for us in the Prem and he was too good for this division in a shocking Bolton side. He's a decent Premier League player. He lacks pace, which is why he's not featuring for Palace with the way they play football. He'd be better suited to France or Italy, to be honest, rather than the Prem - but he is a level above the Championship.
To be honest, Fella - I disagree :)
Game of opinions and all that. I've no issue with people rating different players from me. He's unlikely to be back, so we just have to hope that whoever we actually do get is decent.

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Re: Release or retain?

Post by Prufrock » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:36 pm

That big injury was a crying shame, he was a top 4 player before that. Him Cahill and Holden all we're good enough, shame injuries ruined the chances of two of them. No idea at all where he is now, barely played in 5 years.
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