Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

[nicholaldo]

I don't hold yesterday against the mids. Because the defence dropped so deep, the mids had to follow them and it meant Bristol had loads of space to play in. It made it hard for any of them to know when to press and when to sit. That's then made worse by them only having had one game together and Murphy only joining very recently. Until they get used to each other and we sort out the tactical issues at home, we'll see things like that go on. Early days.

So can we allocate this to Parkinson then i.e. the tactics ?, and getting the centre backs to stop dropping so deep OR are they just ignoring Parkinson ?

The relative ability of our players was more of a factor in the difficulties we faced yesterday than tactics were. Parky recognised we were too deep and was constantly on the edge of the technical area urging Wheater and Beevers to push up, but it was evident that rather than ignoring his instructions they were just incapable of following them.

Only a fool would argue that tactics don't matter - they're obviously extremely important - but they can only play a part in mitigating any problems the opposition might cause. Players of the right skillset are also a necessity, and without more mobile centre-backs a formation or a tactical instruction can only get us so far. It's not unlike the old boxing axiom “styles make fights”. Quick players with a lot of movement are like kryptonite to us, but luckily not every team we play against will have them.

[GhostoftheBok]

So can we allocate this to Parkinson then i.e. the tactics ?, and getting the centre backs to stop dropping so deep OR are they just ignoring Parkinson ?

They were ignoring him during the 90mins from the touchline. Well, not so much ignoring. When he yelled at them they pushed up, but Wheater and Beevers have always been terrified of pace in behind and they instinctively drop back. I don't think you can coach it out of them and I'm not entirely sure they are wrong. We needed to add more pace in the summer and we didn't, so it is what it is. I said in preseason this'd be the main issue and I don't see it changing.

Ultimately, it's Parky's job to find a solution - but if you're playing Wheater and Beevers at the back then you have to to have pace in attack for the counter and you've got to stop trying to play a press. Two banks of four with one mid covering in front of the back four and a fast lad up front. I know it's old fashioned, but if you have slow defenders who can't play football then it's just what has to happen. Without Ameobi and Wildschut, I don't think the side makes too much sense. Noone played very well at the weekend, but we were disjointed because he and Buckley can't threaten in behind.

Throw into the mix that the mids can't pass forward too well. They're not hopeless like Prats et al, but they're not play-makers. So we win the ball back and then our options are either to hoof it or try to play intricate stuff through the flanks. We did a bit of that down the right, but then you look left and you see another weakness. Buckley comes inside and Taylor can't offer the overlap with any pace - nor can he offer that running for 90 minutes.

Away from home, sitting right back and hoping for scraps, no issue. At home it's a puzzle for the manager.

[Peter Thompson]

The relative ability of our players was more of a factor in the difficulties we faced yesterday than tactics were. Parky recognised we were too deep and was constantly on the edge of the technical area urging Wheater and Beevers to push up, but it was evident that rather than ignoring his instructions they were just incapable of following them.

Only a fool would argue that tactics don't matter - they're obviously extremely important - but they can only play a part in mitigating any problems the opposition might cause. Players of the right skillset are also a necessity, and without more mobile centre-backs a formation or a tactical instruction can only get us so far. It's not unlike the old boxing axiom “styles make fights”. Quick players with a lot of movement are like kryptonite to us, but luckily not every team we play against will have them.

So if the players i.e. Wheater & Beevers are incapable of following the managers instructions because they are slow as fcuk, how many times does he (the manager) continue allowing them to play before he thinks 'fcuk this' they are not doing what I'm asking them to do & brings in players who do follow his instructions ? i.e. Hobbs

[GhostoftheBok]

So if the players i.e. Wheater & Beevers are incapable of following the managers instructions because they are slow as fcuk, how many times does he (the manager) continue allowing them to play before he thinks 'fcuk this' they are not doing what I'm asking them to do & brings in players who do follow his instructions ? i.e. Hobbs

Neither Hobbs nor Wilson offer any pace.

[Peter Thompson]

So if the players i.e. Wheater & Beevers are incapable of following the managers instructions because they are slow as fcuk, how many times does he (the manager) continue allowing them to play before he thinks 'fcuk this' they are not doing what I'm asking them to do & brings in players who do follow his instructions ? i.e. Hobbs

Neither Hobbs nor Wilson offer any pace.

I totally agree but perhaps they will at least follow the managers instructions ?

Parkinson see's Wheater & Beevers every day in training and on the pitch for the past two years - so he must think that they are capable of playing higher up the pitch even without any pace OR why would he be instructing them to stop playing too deep.

I'm struggling to understand this....surely Parkinson knows that they are slow as fcuk and that they need to drop deep due to their lack of pace, so why is he asking them to push further up and not drop so deep ?

[GhostoftheBok]

I totally agree but perhaps they will at least follow the managers instructions ?

Parkinson see's Wheater & Beevers every day in training and on the pitch for the past two years - so he must think that they are capable of playing higher up the pitch even without any pace OR why would he be instructing them to stop playing too deep.

I'm struggling to understand this....surely Parkinson knows that they are slow as fcuk and that they need to drop deep due to their lack of pace, so why is he asking them to push further up and not drop so deep ?

He's asking them to trust the press, I think. He wants the midfield compacted so that our mids can hunt for the ball in a smaller area and thus be more likely to win it back - which makes the counter less likely. If the centre halves think the press is about to the broken, they have to drop back in order to cover runs in behind them. Wheats and Beevers were, for Parky, dropping too much when we should have been looking to press the ball. Wheater, whose job it is to organise, then pulls Lowe and Murphy back to him and the press is gone.

Like I say, they're not necessarily wrong. We've not tried this before and it takes months to get right. We will get broken on a lot whilst we figure it out, but we need a way to play at home that allows us to score goals. In Magennis, Lowe and Vela we have lads who can do that closing work for 90 minutes and everyone else basically needs to work on shape and angles.

That's my take on it, anyway. Others may think I'm talking bollocks.

[Peter Thompson]

I totally agree but perhaps they will at least follow the managers instructions ?

Parkinson see's Wheater & Beevers every day in training and on the pitch for the past two years - so he must think that they are capable of playing higher up the pitch even without any pace OR why would he be instructing them to stop playing too deep.

I'm struggling to understand this....surely Parkinson knows that they are slow as fcuk and that they need to drop deep due to their lack of pace, so why is he asking them to push further up and not drop so deep ?

He's asking them to trust the press, I think. He wants the midfield compacted so that our mids can hunt for the ball in a smaller area and thus be more likely to win it back - which makes the counter less likely. If the centre halves think the press is about to the broken, they have to drop back in order to cover runs in behind them. Wheats and Beevers were, for Parky, dropping too much when we should have been looking to press the ball. Wheater, whose job it is to organise, then pulls Lowe and Murphy back to him and the press is gone.

Like I say, they're not necessarily wrong. We've not tried this before and it takes months to get right. We will get broken on a lot whilst we figure it out, but we need a way to play at home that allows us to score goals. In Magennis, Lowe and Vela we have lads who can do that closing work for 90 minutes and everyone else basically needs to work on shape and angles.

That's my take on it, anyway. Others may think I'm talking bollocks.

I quite like you as a relatively new poster to the forum....but with respect that does sound like a complete load of bollocks !

[nicholaldo]

So if the players i.e. Wheater & Beevers are incapable of following the managers instructions because they are slow as fcuk, how many times does he (the manager) continue allowing them to play before he thinks 'fcuk this' they are not doing what I'm asking them to do & brings in players who do follow his instructions ? i.e. Hobbs

Neither Hobbs nor Wilson offer any pace.

I totally agree but perhaps they will at least follow the managers instructions ?

Parkinson see's Wheater & Beevers every day in training and on the pitch for the past two years - so he must think that they are capable of playing higher up the pitch even without any pace OR why would he be instructing them to stop playing too deep.

I'm struggling to understand this....surely Parkinson knows that they are slow as fcuk and that they need to drop deep due to their lack of pace, so why is he asking them to push further up and not drop so deep ?

He was instructing them to push up out of desperation because we were being overwhelmed. We won't always have the answer to the questions asked of us. It's a consequence of having to put together a squad on a shoestring budget.

[Prufrock]

I totally agree but perhaps they will at least follow the managers instructions ?

Parkinson see's Wheater & Beevers every day in training and on the pitch for the past two years - so he must think that they are capable of playing higher up the pitch even without any pace OR why would he be instructing them to stop playing too deep.

I'm struggling to understand this....surely Parkinson knows that they are slow as fcuk and that they need to drop deep due to their lack of pace, so why is he asking them to push further up and not drop so deep ?

He's asking them to trust the press, I think. He wants the midfield compacted so that our mids can hunt for the ball in a smaller area and thus be more likely to win it back - which makes the counter less likely. If the centre halves think the press is about to the broken, they have to drop back in order to cover runs in behind them. Wheats and Beevers were, for Parky, dropping too much when we should have been looking to press the ball. Wheater, whose job it is to organise, then pulls Lowe and Murphy back to him and the press is gone.

Like I say, they're not necessarily wrong. We've not tried this before and it takes months to get right. We will get broken on a lot whilst we figure it out, but we need a way to play at home that allows us to score goals. In Magennis, Lowe and Vela we have lads who can do that closing work for 90 minutes and everyone else basically needs to work on shape and angles.

That's my take on it, anyway. Others may think I'm talking bollocks.

I quite like you as a relatively new poster to the forum....but with respect that does sound like a complete load of bollocks !

It absolutely doesn't.

[GhostoftheBok]

I quite like you as a relatively new poster to the forum....but with respect that does sound like a complete load of bollocks !

No issue with that. My take is that we will see us sit-off away and try to press at home - we'll see what goes on over the first dozen or so games. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about a manager's intentions.

[Peter Thompson]

He was instructing them to push up out of desperation because we were being overwhelmed. We won't always have the answer to the questions asked of us. It's a consequence of having to put together a squad on a shoestring budget.

See tactically that doesn't seem right to me - if your defenders are slow as feck why would you constantly be telling them to push up, surely you would find a way of playing allowing them to play deeper if they are more comfortable doing so.

You may know (or not know) that I have a real issue with Parkinson tactically....he's a nice likeable guy and seems to be able to motivate the team and get them playing for him which is great and we have a good team spirit & togetherness - but when I'm sitting at the game watching the players, the shape, our style of football, the way we move & pass the ball, how we defend, how we create and how we go forward - I seriously don't have a clue what he (Parkinson) is trying to do, its almost like we don't train or coach the players during the week to play a certain way or even set them up to play a certain way & this has been the case for 2 years now under Parkinson.

The players appear (and this is only my opinion) like they are just told to go out & play and its left up to them to find a way of winning....I think someone posted either yesterday or today that he plays just to win the scraps & 2nd balls (I may be wrong though ?) and hopes that we pick up points, which what we did yesterday to be honest....but we seriously don't have a recognised style of play do we ?

[Peter Thompson]

It absolutely doesn't.

Shock fecking horror - Prufrock disagreeing with PT (probably just because its me posting)

[nicholaldo]

I totally agree but perhaps they will at least follow the managers instructions ?

Parkinson see's Wheater & Beevers every day in training and on the pitch for the past two years - so he must think that they are capable of playing higher up the pitch even without any pace OR why would he be instructing them to stop playing too deep.

I'm struggling to understand this....surely Parkinson knows that they are slow as fcuk and that they need to drop deep due to their lack of pace, so why is he asking them to push further up and not drop so deep ?

He's asking them to trust the press, I think. He wants the midfield compacted so that our mids can hunt for the ball in a smaller area and thus be more likely to win it back - which makes the counter less likely. If the centre halves think the press is about to the broken, they have to drop back in order to cover runs in behind them. Wheats and Beevers were, for Parky, dropping too much when we should have been looking to press the ball. Wheater, whose job it is to organise, then pulls Lowe and Murphy back to him and the press is gone.

Like I say, they're not necessarily wrong. We've not tried this before and it takes months to get right. We will get broken on a lot whilst we figure it out, but we need a way to play at home that allows us to score goals. In Magennis, Lowe and Vela we have lads who can do that closing work for 90 minutes and everyone else basically needs to work on shape and angles.

That's my take on it, anyway. Others may think I'm talking bollocks.

Yes, and as you imply, they weren't entirely wrong to think it would be broken either. We can improve in that respect, but I do think that ultimately we have to either a) sign new centre-backs to properly counteract the type of threat that Bristol City offered or b) just accept that it's an achilles' heel.

[Peter Thompson]

I quite like you as a relatively new poster to the forum....but with respect that does sound like a complete load of bollocks !

No issue with that. My take is that we will see us sit-off away and try to press at home - we'll see what goes on over the first dozen or so games. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about a manager's intentions.

This is where I'm struggling - we didn't once try to press yesterday (at home)

[Prufrock]

It absolutely doesn't.

Shock fecking horror - Prufrock disagreeing with PT (probably just because its me posting)

Do me a favour, and stop flattering yourself...

But tbf it obviously doesn't "sound like bollocks". It might not be right but it makes sense.

[Peter Thompson]

It absolutely doesn't.

Shock fecking horror - Prufrock disagreeing with PT (probably just because its me posting)

Do me a favour, and stop flattering yourself...

But tbf it obviously doesn't "sound like bollocks". It might not be right but it makes sense.

Flattering myself, yes ok....do carry on squire - you have a go at almost everything I post and you know it.

Go on then Pru - GOTB said 'He's asking them to trust the press, I think. He wants the midfield compacted so that our mids can hunt for the ball in a smaller area and thus be more likely to win it back' would you care to explain & expand on this tactic as you apparently agree with this !

[Prufrock]

Glad to.

You want to press the ball in midfield. If your back 4 is back on the edge of your box they have more room to play in. If your back 4 presses high up, they have less room to play in. The more room they have, the easier they play through you. It's like one of those keep ball exercises where you play e.g 4 v4 in a tight area, the smaller the area, the harder it is. Your back 4's line makes that space bigger or smaller.

The bit about trusting the press is the downside the that tactic. The higher line you play, the more room there is in behind. If you play a high line you risk people running in behind. If the press doesn't work and a midfielder gets his head up to pick a pass, you're knackered. You're trying the press to always put pressure on the ball. Wheavers are slow as feck and so their instinct is to always and drop off because they don't have the pace.

I doubt they're deliberately not doing it, is just their instinct is to be safety first and not get in a race, that conflicts with trying to press people.

For the worst of both worlds see Owen Coyle c.2012 with Wheater and Knight on the halfway line with their hand in the air whilst Mark Davies and Tuncay absolutely did not put pressure on the ball. Wouldn't surprise me if Wheats still had nightmares from those days.

You're welcome.

[GhostoftheBok]

Basically as Prufrock described it, yeah. It's obviously how a lot of teams in the top flight play at home, but it's been less of a thing in the lower leagues until recently because the football had always been more direct. More teams are trying to play stylish football at this level now, even away from home, and it means a high press is a viable tactic - if you can get it drilled well. That takes time, but I'm not sure we'll overcome the lack of pace at the back.

Here's the issue, though. If Parky wants to evolve our style of play to allow for a better quality of player, he has to start now - even if the personnel issues aren't resolved yet. If we get the basics right this season, it may well cost us points having slow players at the back - but we'll have a style of football set up and lads used to playing it next season. Then we can look at bringing in players who can make the most of what we have built this term.

The long term ambition for Phil is to get us promoted. A lot of fans will roll their eyes, but that's his aim and what he is selling to the players he is bringing in. It's "Come here, I'll improve you and we can get to the Premier League if we all work hard." To achieve that, the long term prep has to start right now. That's how I view what we're seeing on the pitch at the moment. I have criticisms and concerns, as everyone will at any given time, but I think there's a plan there.

[GhostoftheBok]

The other thing with high press is that it makes it much, much easier to collect second balls from a more direct style of play. Which is why at the same time Phil was telling the defence to step up, he was also asking the wide players to make the team narrower at release.

So the ball goes up, someone (either side) gets their head on it and then the compacted nature of both sides means you can both keep your shape and probably have a guy within a few yards of the 2nd ball - at which point it's about winning it.

[GhostoftheBok]

Back on topic, Parky has said that his aim is to bring in "experienced Championship players" in key positions before the window closes.

That presumably means the likes of M'Bengue are options rather than active targets. Aside from Grounds, is there anyone else on the radar that fits the "experienced Championship player" criteria? We've made another signing that I'm pleased with today, but we need more.