State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

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State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:32 am

We got our first proper look at quite a few of the lads tonight, so I thought I'd ask if people's views on where we are have changed at all and generally where posters think we are with the squad.

I was worried we'd be on for a hammering, early doors, but I thought we showed good character and fought back.

Ozzy looks like a proper footballer, but a very different sort to what we've ever had under Parky. Wildschut looks like a good tool to have, but very one-dimensional and has to be given a role that stops him running down blind allies. Fullbacks were decent, new 'keeper did pretty well etc. Aside from maybe Hall, on his professional debut, I didn't see anyone out there who I thought "he's never a championship player" - which is a far cry from recent seasons at this level.

My view on Wilson has changed. I wasn't sure how he'd cope after what went on at Sunderland, but he looks like he could be a very good Championship player in the right side. I'd be very confident in having him start any of the next three games.

I think Ozzy could be a very important player for us, if we give him the responsibility to orchestrate in the middle.

I was okay with the squad anyway, but I'm more okay now. Need more in, but I'm pretty relaxed about the season now. This squad is a good starting point.

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by irie Cee Bee » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:04 am

Thanks for that Ghost. Listened just now to the Manager and I have never seen him so bubbly after a game. He looked and sounded like a man who finally found got the treasures he worked so long and hard to find.

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by Harry Genshaw » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:45 am

For me there were positives in every new player last night. Donaldson was my pick of the bunch who I thought showed good close control and looks strong.

Grounds and Wilson both looked like football playing defenders. Pity the former didn't take his chance to be a hero when it came but he got a good 70 minutes or so under his belt.

Connor Hall - can we not just write him off based on an hours football, where he got next to no service against very experienced centre halves? He needs an extended loan spell somewhere for sure but he's got plenty of time
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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:51 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:45 am
For me there were positives in every new player last night. Donaldson was my pick of the bunch who I thought showed good close control and looks strong.

Grounds and Wilson both looked like football playing defenders. Pity the former didn't take his chance to be a hero when it came but he got a good 70 minutes or so under his belt.

Connor Hall - can we not just write him off based on an hours football, where he got next to no service against very experienced centre halves? He needs an extended loan spell somewhere for sure but he's got plenty of time
Absolutely agree. But the notion he's ready for championship football is ludicrous and last night proved it.

Odds are he may never make it (most players don't) but a loan somewhere will give him the experience he needs.

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by Peter Thompson » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:59 am

In terms of the squad - IMO we have the makings of a decent squad compared to last season, better quality players in most positions.

However & it won't come as a surprise from me, in terms of where we are - we haven't changed a thing, we stay play aimless long balls most of the time so most of these 'better' players will be wasted playing Parkinson football.

What's the point in bringing better quality players in who are much more comfortable on the ball, when we still play the long ball % game. IMO we will only progress as a team when Parkinson changes his approach to how we play football - which we probably all know he can't....we could bring in another couple of prem quality loan players who are great on the ball, but he wouldn't know how to use them. Parkinson would probably tell the defenders to launch high balls to Oztumer, also after last night it'll be interesting to see if Parkinson plays him from the start on Saturday (but I doubt it)

Parkinson is a good manager IMO, but a poor 'one dimensional' coach....and also a poor tactician - so for me instead of bringing more loan players in, KA should think about bringing in an attacking coach to help Parkinson in that area of the game.

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:05 am

Peter Thompson wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:59 am
In terms of the squad - IMO we have the makings of a decent squad compared to last season, better quality players in most positions.

However & it won't come as a surprise from me, in terms of where we are - we haven't changed a thing, we stay play aimless long balls most of the time so most of these 'better' players will be wasted playing Parkinson football.

What's the point in bringing better quality players in who are much more comfortable on the ball, when we still play the long ball % game. IMO we will only progress as a team when Parkinson changes his approach to how we play football - which we probably all know he can't....we could bring in another couple of prem quality loan players who are great on the ball, but he wouldn't know how to use them. Parkinson would probably tell the defenders to launch high balls to Oztumer, also after last night it'll be interesting to see if Parkinson plays him from the start on Saturday (but I doubt it)

Parkinson is a good manager IMO, but a poor 'one dimensional' coach....and also a poor tactician - so for me instead of bringing more loan players in, KA should think about bringing in an attacking coach to help Parkinson in that area of the game.
I bet there are hundreds of Stoke fans who said the same about Pulis. And West Brom fans.

We're competing in a league where we're the minnows. We have to be economical and find ways of taking points. Expansive football working generally requires the best set of players on the day.

We're realistic. The club have gone down the road of hiring managers who want to play football, see Owen Coyle and Neil Lennon. Both failed because you have to be pragmatic in the modern game when your resources are dwarfed by others. And our resources relative to the league are far lower now when OC and NL were managing here.

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by Prufrock » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:11 am

He makes players better and results wise has done a terrific job. I'd love to see us getting it down and try to play the flashy stuff but it's utterly unrealistic given our financial status.

There's a lot of Dyche about Parky I think. Resolute and tough to beat, and a knack for getting a song out of the talent he has. Squad for me looks fine other than CM where we defo need at least one. 3rd striker and send Hall out would be ideal.
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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:15 am

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:11 am
He makes players better and results wise has done a terrific job. I'd love to see us getting it down and try to play the flashy stuff but it's utterly unrealistic given our financial status.

There's a lot of Dyche about Parky I think. Resolute and tough to beat, and a knack for getting a song out of the talent he has. Squad for me looks fine other than CM where we defo need at least one. 3rd striker and send Hall out would be ideal.
Yep, Dyche a fair comparison. Parky knows how to organise and get results. The players he had available second half of last season, when you analyse it were shocking. And he still just about managed to keep that shower up. A miracle of miracles when you're really honest about it.

Its another tough season but the squad looks better. Hopefully we get the rub of the green and luck you need when you've no money in this league.

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:15 am

The idea that better midfielders don't help if you play direct football is a bit odd. Even if you hit a target man regularly your midfield players are going to see a lot of the ball. When they do, quality matters. Parky has shown with his signings that he's not just bothered about mids being 6'+ and mean-lookin'. Obviously he's looking for work rate in our system, but Murphy and Ozzy are both in there to try and get the ball at feet and play a bit.

We were direct under Sam. It still mattered that the midfielders could play.

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:18 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:15 am
The idea that better midfielders don't help if you play direct football is a bit odd. Even if you hit a target man regularly your midfield players are going to see a lot of the ball. When they do, quality matters. Parky has shown with his signings that he's not just bothered about mids being 6'+ and mean-lookin'. Obviously he's looking for work rate in our system, but Murphy and Ozzy are both in there to try and get the ball at feet and play a bit.

We were direct under Sam. It still mattered that the midfielders could play.
Yeah was going to say this. Okocha, Youri etc - we didn't stop playing up to a target, its just when we won the second ball the quality was there where it mattered.

Also the football was good because we played at tempo and didn't spend 3 years passing sideways. I think direct teams generally are more enjoyable to watch.

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:22 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:18 am
Yeah was going to say this. Okocha, Youri etc - we didn't stop playing up to a target, its just when we won the second ball the quality was there where it mattered.

Also the football was good because we played at tempo and didn't spend 3 years passing sideways. I think direct teams generally are more enjoyable to watch.
We were a lot more brave on the ball under Sam, in fairness. But then again, we had a lot more quality. Also, we'll need time to figure it out this season. We've essentially built an entirely new side.

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:29 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:22 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:18 am
Yeah was going to say this. Okocha, Youri etc - we didn't stop playing up to a target, its just when we won the second ball the quality was there where it mattered.

Also the football was good because we played at tempo and didn't spend 3 years passing sideways. I think direct teams generally are more enjoyable to watch.
We were a lot more brave on the ball under Sam, in fairness. But then again, we had a lot more quality. Also, we'll need time to figure it out this season. We've essentially built an entirely new side.
Indeed. But it was still built around a direct style of play. Jay Jay on the long throws for example!

Ultimately I think it was a style that many more expensively assembled sides couldn't cope with!

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:26 pm

With reference to the style of play debate, I thought the 2nd half last night showed some evolution. We did play a lot of fast, dynamic football through midfield. It may have been partly down to the urgency of being 2-0 down and needing to get back into the game, and then the confidence of getting a goal back, but we looked way more dynamic than I can remember since the first couple of months of Lennon's tenure.

Wilson looked really good passing it out from the back whether long or short. Vela and O'Neil got a real grip in midfield with their work rate. Grounds, Little, Wildschut, Ozzy gave us good pace and running power in the attacking areas. We lacked having a decent striker on the pitch, and Donaldson was out of position on the right. With Ameobi in there and Donaldson/Magennis up front we could well have looked a really good side. As it was I thought we looked a decent side.

In terms of the squad I am really happy with it. I would like another deeper lying midfielder and now, post ALF, another striker. Get those and we have Championship level cover for every position and our 2nd team would survive in the Championship on its own. I am looking forward to this season a lot.

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by Prufrock » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:03 pm

Depends what you count I suppose. The 15 mins I saw, Hall had gone off and Magennis was on and basically everything good came through hitting him, but there was variety to it and once we got the second ball we got it down. Partly I suppose it was urgency.

"Attacking" football is what I think most fans want to see more of, not necessarily intricate and in the deck. A team like us is always going to rely on a lump, but signs are we have the personnel to be a bit more adventurous with it.
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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:11 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:03 pm
"Attacking" football is what I think most fans want to see more of, not necessarily intricate and in the deck. A team like us is always going to rely on a lump, but signs are we have the personnel to be a bit more adventurous with it.
Indeed. When Coyle replaced Megson, things initially went so well that some of the more voluble Arsenal fans suggested Captain Clap should replace Wenger. But as Michael Cox and other analysts showed, we still played a lot of "verticals" up to the strikers; we just had attacking players around them to gather up the second balls and make us look good. Once it was in that final third we were capable of scoring goals like That Mark Davies One Against Blackpool, but we showed no shyness in getting up the other end without faff.

In fact, I'd argue we haven't played primarily passing-through-midfield stuff since the days of Rioch and Todd, an era so distant that the players' lunch came from the pie shop across the road.

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:28 pm

On a wider note, one which sort of chimes with Ghost's original post, I was thinking before the Le Fondre news that this summer was about three teams. Parky basically binned one XI, kept another and brought another in, and it's instructive to compare those three teams, especially the ins and outs. I've bodged them into some sort of formation, with apologies to Darby... and it's worth noting that we could have a similar overhaul again, considering we've only got the eight bolded players plus Yoan Zouma contracted past next summer.

OUTCASTS (3-5-2):
Mark Howard; Dorian Dervite, Jan Kirchhoff, Derik Osede; Filipe Morais, Karl Henry, Darren Pratley, Jem Karacan, Chris Taylor; Adam Le Fondre, Aaron Wilbraham. Subs: Chinedu Obasi, Jeff King

NEW BOYS (4-2-3-1):
Remi Matthews; Pawel Olkowski, Jack Hobbs, Marc Wilson, Jonathan Grounds; Jason Lowe, Luke Murphy; Clayton Donaldson, Erhun Oztumer, Yanic Wildschut; Josh Magennis. Sub: Gary O’Neil

FAMILIAR FACES (4-2-3-1):
Ben Alnwick; Mark Little, Mark Beevers, David Wheater, Andrew Taylor; Stephen Darby, Josh Vela; Craig Noone, Sammy Ameobi, Will Buckley; Conor Hall (as ALF's deputy)

To return to Ghost's question, would the new lads beat the outcasts? You have to imagine so. Certainly Parky does...

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:33 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:03 pm

"Attacking" football is what I think most fans want to see more of, not necessarily intricate and in the deck. A team like us is always going to rely on a lump, but signs are we have the personnel to be a bit more adventurous with it.
This is about where I reckon it is. We'll never be a Barcalona and I did point out last night that possession means little unless it has a product. In fairness to Leeds, whilst they did some of the first, their attacks had real bite and their passing has class even the long ball stuff. My main point was the no-mans land balls from walloping to shadows irritates greatly and produces naught. .
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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:18 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:28 pm
On a wider note, one which sort of chimes with Ghost's original post, I was thinking before the Le Fondre news that this summer was about three teams. Parky basically binned one XI, kept another and brought another in, and it's instructive to compare those three teams, especially the ins and outs. I've bodged them into some sort of formation, with apologies to Darby... and it's worth noting that we could have a similar overhaul again, considering we've only got the eight bolded players plus Yoan Zouma contracted past next summer.

OUTCASTS (3-5-2):
Mark Howard; Dorian Dervite, Jan Kirchhoff, Derik Osede; Filipe Morais, Karl Henry, Darren Pratley, Jem Karacan, Chris Taylor; Adam Le Fondre, Aaron Wilbraham. Subs: Chinedu Obasi, Jeff King

NEW BOYS (4-2-3-1):
Remi Matthews; Pawel Olkowski, Jack Hobbs, Marc Wilson, Jonathan Grounds; Jason Lowe, Luke Murphy; Clayton Donaldson, Erhun Oztumer, Yanic Wildschut; Josh Magennis. Sub: Gary O’Neil

FAMILIAR FACES (4-2-3-1):
Ben Alnwick; Mark Little, Mark Beevers, David Wheater, Andrew Taylor; Stephen Darby, Josh Vela; Craig Noone, Sammy Ameobi, Will Buckley; Conor Hall (as ALF's deputy)

To return to Ghost's question, would the new lads beat the outcasts? You have to imagine so. Certainly Parky does...
Not only do the new boys beat the outcasts, I'd say that's clearly a bunch of League One and Two players vs a Championship team. It's not even close.

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Re: State of the squad. Your thoughts, post Leeds.

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:31 pm

On the footballing style side of things, not all entertaining football is beautiful football. Some teams play beautiful football and yet don't win enough games. Some teams play very direct, but you can get behind your side and loads happens during the 90 minutes. I'm not convinced any manager is incapable of putting together a side that can play some good stuff and I'd rather have a manager who can organise a team (Parky) than someone who is obsessed with wingers "beating their man" and thinks every game comes down to individual battles (Coyle). Parky is the most organised and detail-oriented manager we've had since Sam. I retain doubts about him, but he's not a bad manager.

As the standard of player we have (and thus the tools the manager has available) improve, so will the football and results. It will never be beautiful football, but we might just win a few games. There's nothing about this team, right now, that tells me we should be able to pass teams off the park and are being held back by the boss. I look at this side as still lacking in key departments and yet actively being better than the sum of it's parts...which suggests the manager is going a good job. We've arguably been worse than the sum recently, because Parky has had to take whatever was on offer. This is the first time he's been able to try to actually build to a plan, yet he's still managed a promotion and keeping us up.

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