Hail the conquering heroes come.......Bolton V Hull, 3-0'clock Sat 27th Oct.

[BWFC_Insane]

Re bringing a new manager in: are we not overestimating how much of a draw we now are? Personally, I think that our problems are bigger than the manager but if we do make a change the ones with anything about them would surely wait for a better opportunity if we came calling?

There's that Groucho Marx joke about him not wanting to join any club that would have him as a member. I sort of feel the same way but in reverse about any potential new man in charge - it's unlikely I'd want anyone who would currently consider us an attractive proposition.

No. People say that whenever we're thinking of sacking a manager. From Megson onwards...

Owen Coyle was a manager on the up, had taken Burnley up and was worshipped as a hero.

Dougie Freedman was a manager on the up, had taken Palace to the top of the league and is still an all-time club hero.

Phil Parkinson was a manager on the up, had taken Bradford up, into the playoffs and to a League Cup final.


For all our faults, we're still the 39th best team in the country. But it's not time, yet.

You’re right. We should definitely sack him so we can attract great managers as shown by your list....oh...

Am I missing something here? Since Big Sam the only manager we’ve had who has improved our league position has been Parky. The rest have each successive season dragged us lower down the league or just down out of the league.

95% of managers will come here and do a far worse job. The 5% will be very difficult to either attract or uncover.

That’s the odds in my view. Not many good managers about. Lots of average and bad ones. We’ve got a good one who hasn’t ever failed us in the past two seasons inspite of a shit basket case club to manage.

[Tombwfc]

Re bringing a new manager in: are we not overestimating how much of a draw we now are? Personally, I think that our problems are bigger than the manager but if we do make a change the ones with anything about them would surely wait for a better opportunity if we came calling?

There's that Groucho Marx joke about him not wanting to join any club that would have him as a member. I sort of feel the same way but in reverse about any potential new man in charge - it's unlikely I'd want anyone who would currently consider us an attractive proposition.

No. People say that whenever we're thinking of sacking a manager. From Megson onwards...

Owen Coyle was a manager on the up, had taken Burnley up and was worshipped as a hero.

Dougie Freedman was a manager on the up, had taken Palace to the top of the league and is still an all-time club hero.

Phil Parkinson was a manager on the up, had taken Bradford up, into the playoffs and to a League Cup final.


For all our faults, we're still the 39th best team in the country. But it's not time, yet.

You’re right. We should definitely sack him so we can attract great managers as shown by your list....oh...

Am I missing something here? Since Big Sam the only manager we’ve had who has improved our league position has been Parky. The rest have each successive season dragged us lower down the league or just down out of the league.

95% of managers will come here and do a far worse job. The 5% will be very difficult to either attract or uncover.

That’s the odds in my view. Not many good managers about. Lots of average and bad ones. We’ve got a good one who hasn’t ever failed us in the past two seasons inspite of a shit basket case club to manage.

The fact that they all turned out, on balance, to be shit is irrelevant to the point I was making. They weren't viewed as shit at the time, and three of them walked away from good jobs.

The point about league position is also off I think. If we end up in the bottom three looking relegation certs with Parky and he gets sacked, has he not improved us? Coyle, Freedman and Lennon all improved our league position up until the point when they didn't. And then all rightly got sacked.

I like Parky, I don't think we should sack him because on balance I think he's still capable of keeping us up. But we should never be afraid of sacking a manager because only Tony Kelly and Sol Campbell will want it (wouldn't happen) or because we might appoint someone shit (might happen, but then why ever appoint a new manager or sign any new players ever again?).

[BWFC_Insane]

Re bringing a new manager in: are we not overestimating how much of a draw we now are? Personally, I think that our problems are bigger than the manager but if we do make a change the ones with anything about them would surely wait for a better opportunity if we came calling?

There's that Groucho Marx joke about him not wanting to join any club that would have him as a member. I sort of feel the same way but in reverse about any potential new man in charge - it's unlikely I'd want anyone who would currently consider us an attractive proposition.

No. People say that whenever we're thinking of sacking a manager. From Megson onwards...

Owen Coyle was a manager on the up, had taken Burnley up and was worshipped as a hero.

Dougie Freedman was a manager on the up, had taken Palace to the top of the league and is still an all-time club hero.

Phil Parkinson was a manager on the up, had taken Bradford up, into the playoffs and to a League Cup final.


For all our faults, we're still the 39th best team in the country. But it's not time, yet.

You’re right. We should definitely sack him so we can attract great managers as shown by your list....oh...

Am I missing something here? Since Big Sam the only manager we’ve had who has improved our league position has been Parky. The rest have each successive season dragged us lower down the league or just down out of the league.

95% of managers will come here and do a far worse job. The 5% will be very difficult to either attract or uncover.

That’s the odds in my view. Not many good managers about. Lots of average and bad ones. We’ve got a good one who hasn’t ever failed us in the past two seasons inspite of a shit basket case club to manage.

The fact that they all turned out, on balance, to be shit is irrelevant to the point I was making. They weren't viewed as shit at the time, and three of them walked away from good jobs.

The point about league position is also off I think. If we end up in the bottom three looking relegation certs with Parky and he gets sacked, has he not improved us? Coyle, Freedman and Lennon all improved our league position up until the point when they didn't. And then all rightly got sacked.

I like Parky, I don't think we should sack him because on balance I think he's still capable of keeping us up. But we should never be afraid of sacking a manager because only Tony Kelly and Sol Campbell will want it (wouldn't happen) or because we might appoint someone shit (might happen, but then why ever appoint a new manager or sign any new players ever again?).

The argument ‘it’s ok we can sack a manager and get a shit one’ doesn’t wash with me. Megsons last full season we finished 13th. Coyle’s best was 14th. Then relegation. And the downwards slide continued. Season after season.

[Prufrock]

The "lower position each year" stat shows the club was on a general decline but it doesn't show each of those managers, shit as they were, didn't have an initial impact. In fact, though impossible for him not to, he was the only manager of all of them to finish the season he took over in a power position than he started it. These stats are sometimes reductive. The main point is that often a new manager can get something out of the players the old can't.

It's possible a worse manager could keep us up this year.

I'm still "no". I think the job he has done here in the last two years is little short of miraculous (that team last year had no right to survive) on the pitch, never mind off it. Long term, we might even be better going down with him. But that's easy for me to say from a distance. I don't have to pay £30 to drag myself on a January Tuesday to see us narrowly fail to dig out a 0-0 at home to Sheffield Weds.

[BWFC_Insane]

The "lower position each year" stat shows the club was on a general decline but it doesn't show each of those managers, shit as they were, didn't have an initial impact. In fact, though impossible for him not to, he was the only manager of all of them to finish the season he took over in a power position than he started it. These stats are sometimes reductive. The main point is that often a new manager can get something out of the players the old can't.

It's possible a worse manager could keep us up this year.

I'm still "no". I think the job he has done here in the last two years is little short of miraculous (that team last year had no right to survive) on the pitch, never mind off it. Long term, we might even be better going down with him. But that's easy for me to say from a distance. I don't have to pay £30 to drag myself on a January Tuesday to see us narrowly fail to dig out a 0-0 at home to Sheffield Weds.

The club was in decline because it appointed shit managers. That’s the issue. But we’re told ‘don’t be scared of sacking Parky’ loads of shit managers like the ones who left us in this mess are queuing up for the job.

[nelson66]

Lipstick on a pig
No matter what manager we stick in charge (the lipstick) our players are still shit (the pigs) - and we don't have the money to buy better players
Our only option is to try to improve the ones we've got (who if they were inclined to improve - would in most cases already have done so by now)
Or to promote our youth players - who will then also be shit because of the shit players around them setting the standard

Overall - we're domed - no money - no goals no talent not enough league points

[Bruce Rioja]

Just watched their goal again. Campbell's run starts halfway into our half over by the left wing, then he just runs in a perfectly straight line towards our right hand back post without so little as a 4ucking acknowledgement from anybody in a white shirt. He even has time and space to then check back for his goal. We can drone on forever more about tactics, formations and so on, but the players have to carry the can for allowing that to happen. If you don't believe just how truly horrendous it is then please, watch it back. It's absolutely horrendous.

[DJBlu]

Have a look at the guidence from Williams. It's appalling defending.

[BWFC_Insane]

Just watched their goal again. Campbell's run starts halfway into our half over by the left wing, then he just runs in a perfectly straight line towards our right hand back post without so little as a 4ucking acknowledgement from anybody in a white shirt. He even has time and space to then check back for his goal. We can drone on forever more about tactics, formations and so on, but the players have to carry the can for allowing that to happen. If you don't believe just how truly horrendous it is then please, watch it back. It's absolutely horrendous.

One of the worst goals I’ve ever seen us concede to be honest. He has time to take the ball from behind him and score from what 7 yards out. Shocking. And the point is that however well organised we looked defensively and we did for the most part, you cannot legislate for such sloppy defending as that. And goals change games. It’s the way it’s going for us though. Concede a sloppy goal then spend 80 odd minutes creating stuff with no end product.

[bristol_Wanderer3]

So what was that formation we played on Saturday? I have seen it described as a 3-5-2 in the media reports I have seen, but I am not sure it was, certainly not the same as previous iterations of the 3-5-2 used over the last three seasons?

To me it was a 3-4-1-2, with Ozzy playing really advanced, and often up with the two strikers. And when we made the subs in the second half with Dyer and Olkowski going off to be replaced by Buckley and Magennis, it became something else, with Magennis and Buckley not really acting as wing backs, more like semi-wide attackers, but with some defensive responsibility. Ozzy seemed to drop slightly deeper and tried to be the playmaker. More of a 3-2-1-4. Strangely Buckley seemed reluctant to provide width given he is usually a wide player, and the play seemed too congested through the middle, to our detriment. I found it all quite strange.

[BWFC_Insane]

So what was that formation we played on Saturday? I have seen it described as a 3-5-2 in the media reports I have seen, but I am not sure it was, certainly not the same as previous iterations of the 3-5-2 used over the last three seasons?

To me it was a 3-4-1-2, with Ozzy playing really advanced, and often up with the two strikers. And when we made the subs in the second half with Dyer and Olkowski going off to be replaced by Buckley and Magennis, it became something else, with Magennis and Buckley not really acting as wing backs, more like semi-wide attackers, but with some defensive responsibility. Ozzy seemed to drop slightly deeper and tried to be the playmaker. More of a 3-2-1-4. Strangely Buckley seemed reluctant to provide width given he is usually a wide player, and the play seemed to congested through the middle, to our detriment. I found it all quite strange.

A. Mess.

[bristol_Wanderer3]

So what was that formation we played on Saturday? I have seen it described as a 3-5-2 in the media reports I have seen, but I am not sure it was, certainly not the same as previous iterations of the 3-5-2 used over the last three seasons?

To me it was a 3-4-1-2, with Ozzy playing really advanced, and often up with the two strikers. And when we made the subs in the second half with Dyer and Olkowski going off to be replaced by Buckley and Magennis, it became something else, with Magennis and Buckley not really acting as wing backs, more like semi-wide attackers, but with some defensive responsibility. Ozzy seemed to drop slightly deeper and tried to be the playmaker. More of a 3-2-1-4. Strangely Buckley seemed reluctant to provide width given he is usually a wide player, and the play seemed to congested through the middle, to our detriment. I found it all quite strange.

A. Mess.

Yes. It felt like a standard 4-2-3-1 in this game with them being weakened in defence would have been fine. Obviously the availability and fitness of our players might have made that difficult. I felt our shape was certainly an influence in their goal. Beevers as the left hand defender in a three always gives me nightmares.

[BWFC_Insane]

So what was that formation we played on Saturday? I have seen it described as a 3-5-2 in the media reports I have seen, but I am not sure it was, certainly not the same as previous iterations of the 3-5-2 used over the last three seasons?

To me it was a 3-4-1-2, with Ozzy playing really advanced, and often up with the two strikers. And when we made the subs in the second half with Dyer and Olkowski going off to be replaced by Buckley and Magennis, it became something else, with Magennis and Buckley not really acting as wing backs, more like semi-wide attackers, but with some defensive responsibility. Ozzy seemed to drop slightly deeper and tried to be the playmaker. More of a 3-2-1-4. Strangely Buckley seemed reluctant to provide width given he is usually a wide player, and the play seemed to congested through the middle, to our detriment. I found it all quite strange.

A. Mess.

Yes. It felt like a standard 4-2-3-1 in this game with them being weakened in defence would have been fine. Obviously the availability and fitness of our players might have made that difficult. I felt our shape was certainly an influence in their goal. Beevers as the left hand defender in a three always gives me nightmares.

We're trying to find a way to play a front two. And the front two did play well....had Donaldson not missed a golden chance that would have been a hell of a goal btw....quick incisive break, great ball from one striker to another.

But as you say the problem is that behind the front two the shape is wrong. Beevers looked very uncomfortable as did Wilson. And the "wing backs" - Olkowski is NOT a wing back and Dyer is NOT fit.

Trouble is if he plays one up front he gets lambasted. He plays the system and team everyone is crying out for (Oztumer behind a front two) it doesn't work and he's lambasted for that.

Fact is that we're a grind it out type of team. I'd play 11 big lads and try and keep clean sheets and work on set pieces. We need to get out of this rut and its the most likely way.

[Harry Genshaw]

Trouble is if he plays one up front he gets lambasted. He plays the system and team everyone is crying out for (Oztumer behind a front two) it doesn't work and he's lambasted for that.

Fact is that we're a grind it out type of team. I'd play 11 big lads and try and keep clean sheets and work on set pieces. We need to get out of this rut and its the most likely way.

I find it curious that you often feel the need to criticise 'the fans' as somehow this situation is their fault. We've all got opinions on what he could and should do but ultimately he'll live and die as a manager by his results. Nobody will be lambasting him for 1 up top or two up top if he's getting results.

Sadly, I agree with your 2nd point. I think it's our best hope but a team full of big lads or not, we should be spending all this week concentrating on set pieces and delivery

[officer_dibble]

Set pieces have been weird recently. Delivery not great and some odd stuff like the lining up twenty yards out.

[BWFC_Insane]

Trouble is if he plays one up front he gets lambasted. He plays the system and team everyone is crying out for (Oztumer behind a front two) it doesn't work and he's lambasted for that.

Fact is that we're a grind it out type of team. I'd play 11 big lads and try and keep clean sheets and work on set pieces. We need to get out of this rut and its the most likely way.

I find it curious that you often feel the need to criticise 'the fans' as somehow this situation is their fault. We've all got opinions on what he could and should do but ultimately he'll live and die as a manager by his results. Nobody will be lambasting him for 1 up top or two up top if he's getting results.

Sadly, I agree with your 2nd point. I think it's our best hope but a team full of big lads or not, we should be spending all this week concentrating on set pieces and delivery

We have a lot of shit fans though. I'm sure every club does. But its sticking out more and more. I think its more me just being frustrated that people can't accept we're now a small club with small crowds who won't pay much and no benefactor. Therefore, we're going to struggle in a league where even mid table sides are spending hugely in excess compared to ourselves. Yet there are people on Radio Manchester proclaiming it to be the "worst Bolton side ever" and "won't go till he's sacked" nonsense.

It isn't "their fault" but we are currently budget wise top 6 league one bottom 6 championship. So we are where we should be. I think at Bolton we have one of the larger disparities currently between fan expectation and reality. We used to laugh at other clubs for this.

[The_Gun]

Trouble is if he plays one up front he gets lambasted. He plays the system and team everyone is crying out for (Oztumer behind a front two) it doesn't work and he's lambasted for that.

Fact is that we're a grind it out type of team. I'd play 11 big lads and try and keep clean sheets and work on set pieces. We need to get out of this rut and its the most likely way.

I find it curious that you often feel the need to criticise 'the fans' as somehow this situation is their fault. We've all got opinions on what he could and should do but ultimately he'll live and die as a manager by his results. Nobody will be lambasting him for 1 up top or two up top if he's getting results.

Sadly, I agree with your 2nd point. I think it's our best hope but a team full of big lads or not, we should be spending all this week concentrating on set pieces and delivery

We have a lot of shit fans though. I'm sure every club does. But its sticking out more and more. I think its more me just being frustrated that people can't accept we're now a small club with small crowds who won't pay much and no benefactor. Therefore, we're going to struggle in a league where even mid table sides are spending hugely in excess compared to ourselves. Yet there are people on Radio Manchester proclaiming it to be the "worst Bolton side ever" and "won't go till he's sacked" nonsense.

It isn't "their fault" but we are currently budget wise top 6 league one bottom 6 championship. So we are where we should be. I think at Bolton we have one of the larger disparities currently between fan expectation and reality. We used to laugh at other clubs for this.

Out of interest, what do the fans on here expect of us? For me, given our off the field situation, my expectation is to be in a relegation battle and anything better than that is a bonus.

[BWFC_Insane]

Trouble is if he plays one up front he gets lambasted. He plays the system and team everyone is crying out for (Oztumer behind a front two) it doesn't work and he's lambasted for that.

Fact is that we're a grind it out type of team. I'd play 11 big lads and try and keep clean sheets and work on set pieces. We need to get out of this rut and its the most likely way.

I find it curious that you often feel the need to criticise 'the fans' as somehow this situation is their fault. We've all got opinions on what he could and should do but ultimately he'll live and die as a manager by his results. Nobody will be lambasting him for 1 up top or two up top if he's getting results.

Sadly, I agree with your 2nd point. I think it's our best hope but a team full of big lads or not, we should be spending all this week concentrating on set pieces and delivery

We have a lot of shit fans though. I'm sure every club does. But its sticking out more and more. I think its more me just being frustrated that people can't accept we're now a small club with small crowds who won't pay much and no benefactor. Therefore, we're going to struggle in a league where even mid table sides are spending hugely in excess compared to ourselves. Yet there are people on Radio Manchester proclaiming it to be the "worst Bolton side ever" and "won't go till he's sacked" nonsense.

It isn't "their fault" but we are currently budget wise top 6 league one bottom 6 championship. So we are where we should be. I think at Bolton we have one of the larger disparities currently between fan expectation and reality. We used to laugh at other clubs for this.

Out of interest, what do the fans on here expect of us? For me, given our off the field situation, my expectation is to be in a relegation battle and anything better than that is a bonus.

If we finish outside the bottom 3 - for me thats another exceptional season. It really is that simple. I'd say for us 6th bottom is the equivalent of winning the league.

[dave the minion]

I'd agree. We're all disappointed at the recent run of games, but we need to put that in perspective - all we are doing is playing at our right level. The fact that we over-achieved (massively) at the start is a welcome bonus, and gives us a bit of breathing space, buts its certainly not our normal level.

Until we get substantial outside investment in then this is the norm I'm afraid....

[TANGODANCER]

I'd agree. We're all disappointed at the recent run of games, but we need to put that in perspective - all we are doing is playing at our right level. The fact that we over-achieved (massively) at the start is a welcome bonus, and gives us a bit of breathing space, buts its certainly not our normal level.Until we get substantial outside investment in then this is the norm I'm afraid....

Please don't come on here talking sense; it just isn't welcome. You're a very naughty boy..

You are of course, very right. There are so many teams in this league with so little between them that literally anything can happen results wise. If it weren't so, everybody would be scooping the pools jackpots every week. It's sad that we lose the way we do, odd goal and always conceding early and mountain climbing, but any outrage at losing or blaming the manager is soooooooooo pointless knowing that the teams we lose to are all way above us financially and in reality we're hitting above our weight. Just a couple of wins by any means possible and the mood will go from half-past to the o'clock faster than a Pound-world alarm clock..

Golf has a handicap system where by you at least get a chance of winning although you know you're a worse player; that's what it's for, to create equality and fair play. Football has no such system. Multi billionaires from the desert lands and Russian oligarchs from Siberia rule football and buy the best of everything just because they can. Simply put, we aren't that far off with our current Ebenezers. Imagine what any investment could do for us. In reality, we're pretty great... "COME ON YOU WHITES"....