Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by TonyDomingos » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:34 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:26 pm
Pen shout was at the other end so no idea, anyone seen it better? Was weird to for him to go down as he was in. (Though he missed a very similar chance about 5 mins later).

Being sat in the Barry Kitchener stand, I was almost in line with the incident. It did seem to me that Buckley was looking for a pen rather than thinking "how can I beat the keeper in a one-on-one from 15 yards out?" That said, I'm sure there was contact and was quite surprised when the ref waved play on. That he didn't book him for diving spoke volumes.
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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:44 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:02 pm
bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:05 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:47 am
bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:33 am
Yes I think when we talk about Parky being or not being a poor manager in terms of creativity, the fact that a lot of the team have to do so much running that they are knackered by the time we get on the ball is one of the biggest factors, if you think he is poor at creativity that is.

So presumably yesterday was back to a hard running, defend first, hope to score primarily from a set piece type of performance, even though it sounds like we did create a few chances?

It mightn't have been a bad thing if it was; it isn't pretty but it seems to be the only set-up that gets us results.
Completely agree. Time for us to do what we do best and grind out some results.
I really, really, really don't get this!
We don't do anything best. We certainly don't grind out results: We aren't some machine that constantly spits out mince no matter what crap you feed into it, especially as the crap fed in is composed of gelatine not meat never mind gristle, and the bloke at the handle doesn't understand it needs to turn.

It's hard to go into it without re-hashing old arguments but we did grind out results in August, and for a considerable portion of the previous season. 4-2-3-1, with two holding midfielders, a runner in behind, a target man up front and two hard-working wingers either side is how we did it. Bypass the midfield by hitting it long to the target man who holds it up/knocks it down, then start thirty yards away from the opposition's goal and play it wide, where our full-backs can overlap and we can cross it into the box, or where Ameobi can beat a man and cause problems. It's a system that we haven't really played since Ameobi got injured, and it's a system that allows us solidity at the back, the ability to retain possession in the opposition's half and width high up the pitch. There's an added benefit in conceding the centre of midfield in that we can hit on the counter and make use of the space created by the opposition having pushed players forward; space that we wouldn't otherwise have been able to create.

Before now, we've played that way because we haven't had anyone remotely resembling a “footballing” midfielder. I accept that Oztumer might, in theory, allow us to play more attractively, and I accept that it's possible (maybe even probable?) that Parky doesn't know how to get the best out of him or how to properly play in a more pleasing fashion, and I also accept that another manager might use Oztumer more effectively. But the fact of the matter is that Parky is still the manager, and as you yourself have acknowledged, he doesn't appear to be going anywhere. That being the case, we might as well play to the style and the set-up that he knows best. Encouraging us to play a system we can't/don't know how to play and that hasn't yielded results seems like a fool's errand.

We've made an effort to play a more passing style of football and the statistics show that the more passes we attempt, the less chance we have of winning. Generally, the hard-working 4-2-3-1 produces fairly turgid football, and often it can be downright dreadful, but the crucial thing is that we do better when we play it. Naturally, it doesn't work every week, and there are certain teams who will beat us regardless of how we play, but when we had Madine as the focal point who we could play off and the rest of the team set out as above last season, it resulted in a comfortable mid-table points return over a significant enough sample size. From Aston Villa away, when we first played it properly, through to the end of the January transfer window, we earned twenty-four points from a run of eighteen matches. In the next eighteen, after Madine had been sold and when we made efforts to play more expansively without a target man (whether it was a 3-5-2 to accommodate two up front, or le Fondre as the one in a 4-2-3-1) we accumulated just seventeen points (and even then, in two of the four matches that we won during that period we abandoned our attempt to play on the floor, started Wilbraham and went long). If we take those averages and stretch them out over a full campaign, it's the difference between staying up and not.

The same is true the second time around. Play Doidge (who is increasingly looking like this year's le Fondre) or Donaldson up front on their own and they aren't strong enough to hold off the opposing centre-back, meaning that we can't get out of our own half and are faced with wave after wave of attack. Try and retain possession and pass it through the midfield with Oztumer and we can't find a way through. Ameobi on the right, Magennis (and only Magennis) as the target man, a hard-working winger on the left who will match Ameobi's work rate and cover the full-backs (probably Buckley) and someone to run their bollocks off in the hole (probably either Vela or Williams, though I suppose it could be Oztumer if he's willing to do the running that they would), and pray that we're lucky with injuries, particularly with both Ameobi and Magennis. That's what we should go with. There probably will be other formations and other set-ups that could work, but we're almost half-way through the season and we need to stop gambling and just do the only thing that has served us well. It's a shit state of affairs but it is what it is.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:34 am

^^Yes.

We had an old meat grinding machine that made strange noises and looked ugly, but it did the job of spewing out mince based on the ingredients inserted into it. The ingredients were often poor quality and often the mince produced was a lot worse than our competitors.

Then we used new suppliers who provided us with better ingredients with more gristle and meat rather than gelatine and offel, and the mince was better quality more on a par with our competitors.

Unbeknown to most of us, the management had also hired a new grinding machine that was efficient, quiet, connected to the internet so capable of playing music and videos, whilst cleaning itself and in theory producing the mince much more efficiently, thus helping save the planet.

However, it was complicated to use with a large instruction manual, and our management team underestimated the complexity, and found that our competitors had had the advantage of a much longer period to configure the machine to get the very best out of it. Thus we were no nearer to our competitors than using the old clunky machine, possibly even further behind.

Now facing the prospect of financial ruin, we have decided the only way forward is to return to the old clunky machine, and hope despite the period of inactivity it still produces the mince albeit in a noisy and ugly way.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Jugs » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:27 am

Where does Ireland fit into this grinding machine?

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:31 am

Jugs wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:27 am
Where does Ireland fit into this grinding machine?
You can play more technical players like Ireland in the system if they produce. The issue we've had is we've been playing technical players in a variety of systems and they haven't produced.....anything. Likes of Noone and Oztumer have been, massive, massive disappointments to me. Its fine being technically gifted, but if you don't create chances and goals then its utterly pointless.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Jugs » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:17 am

Fair point, even though I do disagree RE Otzumer.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:25 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:31 am
Jugs wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:27 am
Where does Ireland fit into this grinding machine?
You can play more technical players like Ireland in the system if they produce. The issue we've had is we've been playing technical players in a variety of systems and they haven't produced.....anything. Likes of Noone and Oztumer have been, massive, massive disappointments to me. Its fine being technically gifted, but if you don't create chances and goals then its utterly pointless.
Just a comment: The current rules of football and the allowance of a much more physical game, where many calls and blatant fouls get ignored, hands on players, shirt holding and pulling etc, have changed the game again. The totally skilled ( and more fragile players who rely on ball skills more than physicality) are more at injury risk than ever. I reckon this is Parky's reasoning in not playing either Oz or Ireland, and why we lost the likes of Holden, Mark Davies and others to injury as the game changed. Currently, outside of ourselves, a skilled player like Ozil of Arsenal is being accused of being afraid to play. That's wrong. Football's never been a game for softies, but there's a limit to what that means.
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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:36 am

Jugs wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:17 am
Fair point, even though I do disagree RE Otzumer.
You disagree that in a run of games where we scored 0 goals and created barely a chance and Oztumer played in that he produced something? What has he produced so far?

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:39 am

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:25 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:31 am
Jugs wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:27 am
Where does Ireland fit into this grinding machine?
You can play more technical players like Ireland in the system if they produce. The issue we've had is we've been playing technical players in a variety of systems and they haven't produced.....anything. Likes of Noone and Oztumer have been, massive, massive disappointments to me. Its fine being technically gifted, but if you don't create chances and goals then its utterly pointless.
Just a comment: The current rules of football and the allowance of a much more physical game, where many calls and blatant fouls get ignored, hands on players, shirt holding and pulling etc, have changed the game again. The totally skilled ( and more fragile players who rely on ball skills more than physicality) are more at injury risk than ever. I reckon this is Parky's reasoning in not playing either Oz or Ireland, and why we lost the likes of Holden, Mark Davies and others to injury as the game changed. Currently, outside of ourselves, a skilled player like Ozil of Arsenal is being accused of being afraid to play. That's wrong. Football's never been a game for softies, but there's a limit to what that means.
Football is less physical than its ever been and more suited to technical players than it has ever been. You can win the ball cleanly and be sent off nowadays.

Not sure what you're on about......these players are protected more than ever.

However, it is a faster more athletic game and just having a "bit of skill" generally doesn't cut through. As we see with Oztumer. Clearly very talented on the ball but in game situations he's wasted great situations to a point where I don't think picking him is justified, given you can throw in less talented players who do at least seem to offer some output or just a workhorse who contributes overall on the pitch.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:50 am

Interesting stuff, even if I didn't expect quite this much mincing.

Sounds to me like rather than the theoretical 4-2-3-1 excellently described above by others, Parky went with the 4-3-3 system he's mentioned publicly a couple of times as an option. That's essentially the Allardyce system: one midfielder sitting deeper than the other two, and two wide men combining attacking and midfield duties - as they also do in a 4-2-3-1, either side of a No.10 like Oztumer or Ireland (or Vela). It's just inverting that triangle of central midfielders, but these things can change your gameplan and results.

And for the record, despite its lack of a No.10, the 4-3-3 isn't necessarily more defensive than 4-2-3-1. For most games, Liverpool, City and Chelsea all play variants of 4-3-3.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Jugs » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:51 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:36 am
Jugs wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:17 am
Fair point, even though I do disagree RE Otzumer.
You disagree that in a run of games where we scored 0 goals and created barely a chance and Oztumer played in that he produced something? What has he produced so far?
I don't think he's been a massive disappointment. He's been showing signs of improvement, and he has created chances, too. IIRC he put one on a plate for Donaldson, who blazed over, while it was his gorgeous cross that led to the header that was cleared off the line v Villa. He's contributed and I think you're being harsh.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:57 am

Jugs wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:51 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:36 am
Jugs wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:17 am
Fair point, even though I do disagree RE Otzumer.
You disagree that in a run of games where we scored 0 goals and created barely a chance and Oztumer played in that he produced something? What has he produced so far?
I don't think he's been a massive disappointment. He's been showing signs of improvement, and he has created chances, too. IIRC he put one on a plate for Donaldson, who blazed over, while it was his gorgeous cross that led to the header that was cleared off the line v Villa. He's contributed and I think you're being harsh.
Not contributed nearly enough to warrant his inclusion for me. The two games recently he was left out of were the two we scored in and took something from.

I mean look, its part coincidence - but he hasn't done nearly enough for me. He's put a couple of decent balls in, but wasted a whole load of good positions too. And you're carrying him off the ball - someone with more physical presence at least offers a different type of option.

If you play an attacking midfield player like him they need to score close to double figures and create more. IMHO. He doesn't show signs of doing that yet. Perhaps he'll improve.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Jugs » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:18 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:57 am
Jugs wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:51 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:36 am
Jugs wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:17 am
Fair point, even though I do disagree RE Otzumer.
You disagree that in a run of games where we scored 0 goals and created barely a chance and Oztumer played in that he produced something? What has he produced so far?
I don't think he's been a massive disappointment. He's been showing signs of improvement, and he has created chances, too. IIRC he put one on a plate for Donaldson, who blazed over, while it was his gorgeous cross that led to the header that was cleared off the line v Villa. He's contributed and I think you're being harsh.
Not contributed nearly enough to warrant his inclusion for me. The two games recently he was left out of were the two we scored in and took something from.

I mean look, its part coincidence - but he hasn't done nearly enough for me. He's put a couple of decent balls in, but wasted a whole load of good positions too. And you're carrying him off the ball - someone with more physical presence at least offers a different type of option.

If you play an attacking midfield player like him they need to score close to double figures and create more. IMHO. He doesn't show signs of doing that yet. Perhaps he'll improve.
Hmm, I get what you're saying - but at the same time, I doubt PP expected Oz to come in and score 10+ goals. For that sort of return from a CAM, we'd have to be spending millions. So we have to wonder what PP expected from him, and how he expected him to link up with a big lad like Josh.

You say he's been a massive disappointment but what did you expect from a free transfer from League One, a "non-league Messi" exactly? I think so far he's been trying to adjust to the step-up.

Naturally, of course, I'd sooner see Ireland in that role.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:23 pm

Jugs wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:18 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:57 am
Jugs wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:51 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:36 am
Jugs wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:17 am
Fair point, even though I do disagree RE Otzumer.
You disagree that in a run of games where we scored 0 goals and created barely a chance and Oztumer played in that he produced something? What has he produced so far?
I don't think he's been a massive disappointment. He's been showing signs of improvement, and he has created chances, too. IIRC he put one on a plate for Donaldson, who blazed over, while it was his gorgeous cross that led to the header that was cleared off the line v Villa. He's contributed and I think you're being harsh.
Not contributed nearly enough to warrant his inclusion for me. The two games recently he was left out of were the two we scored in and took something from.

I mean look, its part coincidence - but he hasn't done nearly enough for me. He's put a couple of decent balls in, but wasted a whole load of good positions too. And you're carrying him off the ball - someone with more physical presence at least offers a different type of option.

If you play an attacking midfield player like him they need to score close to double figures and create more. IMHO. He doesn't show signs of doing that yet. Perhaps he'll improve.
Hmm, I get what you're saying - but at the same time, I doubt PP expected Oz to come in and score 10+ goals. For that sort of return from a CAM, we'd have to be spending millions. So we have to wonder what PP expected from him, and how he expected him to link up with a big lad like Josh.

You say he's been a massive disappointment but what did you expect from a free transfer from League One, a "non-league Messi" exactly? I think so far he's been trying to adjust to the step-up.

Naturally, of course, I'd sooner see Ireland in that role.
Yeah I guess the hope was he'd translate his league one scoring record to this league. Sadly he hasn't shown that yet. It isn't impossible- see Dack (a player PP tried to sign a year ago too).

I'm not saying he's a massive disappointment based on likelihood or fee. Just that a player many saw as being capable of offering something we've lacked - goals from midfield - isn't looking like doing so - yet. Nor does he really fit into many sensible shapes we might play. I'm curious to see how fit Ireland is. Have a feeling we'll never actually see him in a BWFC shirt!

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:41 pm

According to WhoScored, who count these things so you and I don't have to, Key Passes are those which create a shot, ie those which would be assists if they were all converted.

Oztumer averages 1.8 of these per game, easily our highest number.
passes.jpg
passes.jpg (94.31 KiB) Viewed 2117 times
Note that Williams got his first assist of the season on Saturday with a lovely reverse pass across the area. Should have had another late on, but baby-steps and that.

Might also be worth noting that at home, where we're particularly dire, Oz's key passes go up to 2.1 per game - Williams and O'Neil are next on 1.3. (Away, Ameobi and Vela are top with 2.0 per game.)

This might suggest we should play Oz at No.10 in a 4-2-3-1 against more beatable or deep-sitting teams. It's worth thinking about because we can't go through the season having Wheater as our joint-highest assister, as he is on the moment with a mighty two.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:06 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:41 pm


Might also be worth noting that at home, where we're particularly dire, Oz's key passes go up to 2.1 per game - Williams and O'Neil are next on 1.3. (Away, Ameobi and Vela are top with 2.0 per game.)

This might suggest we should play Oz at No.10 in a 4-2-3-1 against more beatable or deep-sitting teams. It's worth thinking about because we can't go through the season having Wheater as our joint-highest assister, as he is on the moment with a mighty two.
I feel that if we are to see more from Ozzy, we are more likely to see it later this season or next season. Same with Doidge. The step up from the lower leagues is huge, and it rarely happens straight away.

Ozzy has also had the misfortune to not play with Ameobi, our only quality attacker. It would be hard for any creative midfielder to rack up the assists given he has Noone, Buckley, and Donaldson playing in front of him, especially given that Parky isn't the kind of manager that has them playing adventurously. Ozzy hasn't produced enough, his finishing and his set pieces have been disappointing, but he might still come good.

One detail those stats don't appear to cover is that Ozzy's main responsibility is to create? So he should be ahead of the likes of Williams in assists, and by a bigger margin imho.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:41 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:39 am


Football is less physical than its ever been and more suited to technical players than it has ever been. You can win the ball cleanly and be sent off nowadays.

Not sure what you're on about......these players are protected more than ever.

However, it is a faster more athletic game and just having a "bit of skill" generally doesn't cut through. As we see with Oztumer. Clearly very talented on the ball but in game situations he's wasted great situations to a point where I don't think picking him is justified, given you can throw in less talented players who do at least seem to offer some output or just a workhorse who contributes overall on the pitch.
Have you ever actually played football Insaney? Just wondered. You seem to know so much about it all yet make some screamingly clueless statments? Prior to the last World Cup I might agree; since then it's more physical than ever with dragging, shirt pulling and elbowing all let go by refs..None of it's new, just allowed more now than ever before. I'd have thought our own injury list might prove some of that. How many players get elbowed, climbed on, shoved in the back and studs-up slide tackled right now compared to ten years ago? Or are you talking about last week?
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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Enoch » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:46 pm

I came away from Saturday with one thing clear in my mind.

The Market Porter keeps a cracking pint of Harvey's Sussex.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:51 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:41 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:39 am


Football is less physical than its ever been and more suited to technical players than it has ever been. You can win the ball cleanly and be sent off nowadays.

Not sure what you're on about......these players are protected more than ever.

However, it is a faster more athletic game and just having a "bit of skill" generally doesn't cut through. As we see with Oztumer. Clearly very talented on the ball but in game situations he's wasted great situations to a point where I don't think picking him is justified, given you can throw in less talented players who do at least seem to offer some output or just a workhorse who contributes overall on the pitch.
Have you ever actually played football Insaney? Just wondered. You seem to know so much about it all yet make some screamingly clueless statments? Prior to the last World Cup I might agree; since then it's more physical than ever with dragging, shirt pulling and elbowing all let go by refs..None of it's new, just allowed more now than ever before. I'd have thought our own injury list might prove some of that. How many players get elbowed, climbed on, shoved in the back and studs-up slide tackled right now compared to ten years ago? Or are you talking about last week?
Find me someone with any credibility who thinks technical players like Ozil are protected LESS now than they were in the past.

Just someone.

FFS. Its a nonsense. Have you actually watched any football in the last ten years? Physical contact is closer and closer to becoming banned. A tackle that wins the ball cleanly but is determined "reckless" is a straight red - tackles that 10 years ago wouldn't have even resulted in a foul being given.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Prufrock » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:03 pm

Enoch wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:46 pm
I came away from Saturday with one thing clear in my mind.

The Market Porter keeps a cracking pint of Harvey's Sussex.
I'll second that. Lovely stuff
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

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