Are we still here? Are you sure!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I've heard some hysterical bollox in my life, but the latest panic fanny hysteria surrounding the club right now really is of the highest order.
Discuss (and vote - probably the only opportunity you'll get).

[officer_dibble]

Hear ye hear ye
The end is nigh

[BWFC_Insane]

I've heard some hysterical bollox in my life, but the latest panic fanny hysteria surrounding the club right now really is of the highest order.
Discuss (and vote - probably the only opportunity you'll get).

Hysterical? What do you see as the viable ways out from our current position?

There are only 2 - Anderson sells. We enter admin.

Which would you say is the most likely?

[officer_dibble]

Presumably the EFL payment landing later this month has the potential to ease worries at least for a while? I’m Imagining Ken Jong was going to use this to pay FGR and/or Norwich (fck Everton).

Not sure it would get us through the season mind.

[BWFC_Insane]

Presumably the EFL payment landing later this month has the potential to ease worries at least for a while? I’m Imagining Ken Jong was going to use this to pay FGR and/or Norwich (fck Everton).

Not sure it would get us through the season mind.

The EFL will likely take the payments out automatically that are owed to football creditors.

End of the day IF we survive the season out of admin - when we get relegated that is a £6M income loss on top of our £3M losses a year. Good luck with Ken managing that one without literally ripping everything up and sending us to the bottom end of league one.

Without a sale we're going into admin sooner or later. IF there is no realistic sale possible I'd argue we'd be better off in admin ASAP. That way we are a championship club in admin likely very cheap. Sure we'd be relegated but still. My worry is if we leave it later we increase the debt, end up a bottom half league one side and then even from admin are far less desirable for any new owner.

Admin is a huge, risk. No guarantee you emerge and even if you do, no guarantee you emerge in anything other than a husk...However, what other options are there?

[Hoboh]

I've heard some hysterical bollox in my life, but the latest panic fanny hysteria surrounding the club right now really is of the highest order.
Discuss (and vote - probably the only opportunity you'll get).

Hysterical? What do you see as the viable ways out from our current position?

There are only 2 - Anderson sells. We enter admin.

Which would you say is the most likely?

Ken stops being greedy, takes a nice littler earner for the time he's been here and sells up.
No matter what happens it is going to be years before any real success appears at the club again.

[BWFC_Insane]

I've heard some hysterical bollox in my life, but the latest panic fanny hysteria surrounding the club right now really is of the highest order.
Discuss (and vote - probably the only opportunity you'll get).

Hysterical? What do you see as the viable ways out from our current position?

There are only 2 - Anderson sells. We enter admin.

Which would you say is the most likely?

Ken stops being greedy, takes a nice littler earner for the time he's been here and sells up.
No matter what happens it is going to be years before any real success appears at the club again.

I don't think Ken's greed is the obstacle to a sale. It is one - but the bigger one is a £20M debt that any buyer would have to prove an ability to service. So any buyer needs £20M straight away - unless they can negoitiate with ED's trust, Brett Warburton and Prescott Business Parks. The problem being that any buyer with money would be expected to settle those debts. Any buyer without money....well we're no better off.

You're putting £20M in before anything else. Then you need to fund £3M to cover the immediate losses.

That is £23M before you've started investing into the team/land/wider club etc....

How attractive do you think that will be to anyone? Even IF Ken waives his reported £5M fee?

[Harry Genshaw]

^ I could be being a bit numb here but is a £20m debt that big a deal to anyone purchasing the club? It's relatively small compared to other clubs and aren't we actually running at a very small profit now, since the outgoings reduced?

Could a new owner just take over and chip away at the debt or does it have to be paid in full by anyone new coming in?

[BWFC_Insane]

^ I could be being a bit numb here but is a £20m debt that big a deal to anyone purchasing the club? It's relatively small compared to other clubs and aren't we actually running at a very small profit now, since the outgoings reduced?

Could a new owner just take over and chip away at the debt or does it have to be paid in full by anyone new coming in?

Not all debts are the same. For example a club might be "100M" in debt to their owner who would wipe off the majority on a sale completion.

Any new owner would have to be able to satisfy the EFL that they could run the business as a going concern. Immediately that requires proving they have funds to cover the losses (reported to be £3M) for the rest of the season and projected losses for the coming season.

That is an absolute. Then they'd have to show ability to service any debts due within a certain period. They could say "we'll renegotiate the terms" but would have to prove an ability to do so. IF said new owner is wealthy then it isn't unreasonable to expect BW, PBP and ED's trust to say "pay us in full by the dates stipulated or else". If they aren't then all three lenders have shown a willingness to help the club. But if the new owners aren't able to service that debt - would they be able to cover our losses?

The reality is that we aren't a very attractive proposition. As a business on paper we're not good. As a football club our potential is not great enough (our stadium size and realistic fanbase maximum is way below other clubs in similar positions). Any buyer will look at the need to find £20 odd million (realistically that's the need) and probably see other clubs like Wigan without such a large up front investment required. Or see clubs with larger potentials relative to the initial investment.

[Gary the Enfield]

^ I could be being a bit numb here but is a £20m debt that big a deal to anyone purchasing the club? It's relatively small compared to other clubs and aren't we actually running at a very small profit now, since the outgoings reduced?

Could a new owner just take over and chip away at the debt or does it have to be paid in full by anyone new coming in?

Not all debts are the same. For example a club might be "100M" in debt to their owner who would wipe off the majority on a sale completion.

Any new owner would have to be able to satisfy the EFL that they could run the business as a going concern. Immediately that requires proving they have funds to cover the losses (reported to be £3M) for the rest of the season and projected losses for the coming season.

That is an absolute. Then they'd have to show ability to service any debts due within a certain period. They could say "we'll renegotiate the terms" but would have to prove an ability to do so. IF said new owner is wealthy then it isn't unreasonable to expect BW, PBP and ED's trust to say "pay us in full by the dates stipulated or else". If they aren't then all three lenders have shown a willingness to help the club. But if the new owners aren't able to service that debt - would they be able to cover our losses?

The reality is that we aren't a very attractive proposition. As a business on paper we're not good. As a football club our potential is not great enough (our stadium size and realistic fanbase maximum is way below other clubs in similar positions). Any buyer will look at the need to find £20 odd million (realistically that's the need) and probably see other clubs like Wigan without such a large up front investment required. Or see clubs with larger potentials relative to the initial investment.

Been a while since I looked but isn't £15m of the debt to ED's family contingent on us being promoted to the Premier League? In which case:
a) We don't need to worry about it and
b) it would be paid out of the Sky TV money so we don't need to worry about it.

[Enoch]

Been a while since I looked but isn't £15m of the debt to ED's family contingent on us being promoted to the Premier League? In which case:
a) We don't need to worry about it and
b) it would be paid out of the Sky TV money so we don't need to worry about it.

How dare you point that out!

[BWFC_Insane]

^ I could be being a bit numb here but is a £20m debt that big a deal to anyone purchasing the club? It's relatively small compared to other clubs and aren't we actually running at a very small profit now, since the outgoings reduced?

Could a new owner just take over and chip away at the debt or does it have to be paid in full by anyone new coming in?

Not all debts are the same. For example a club might be "100M" in debt to their owner who would wipe off the majority on a sale completion.

Any new owner would have to be able to satisfy the EFL that they could run the business as a going concern. Immediately that requires proving they have funds to cover the losses (reported to be £3M) for the rest of the season and projected losses for the coming season.

That is an absolute. Then they'd have to show ability to service any debts due within a certain period. They could say "we'll renegotiate the terms" but would have to prove an ability to do so. IF said new owner is wealthy then it isn't unreasonable to expect BW, PBP and ED's trust to say "pay us in full by the dates stipulated or else". If they aren't then all three lenders have shown a willingness to help the club. But if the new owners aren't able to service that debt - would they be able to cover our losses?

The reality is that we aren't a very attractive proposition. As a business on paper we're not good. As a football club our potential is not great enough (our stadium size and realistic fanbase maximum is way below other clubs in similar positions). Any buyer will look at the need to find £20 odd million (realistically that's the need) and probably see other clubs like Wigan without such a large up front investment required. Or see clubs with larger potentials relative to the initial investment.

Been a while since I looked but isn't £15m of the debt to ED's family contingent on us being promoted to the Premier League? In which case:
a) We don't need to worry about it and
b) it would be paid out of the Sky TV money so we don't need to worry about it.

That is how that was initially described but subsequently Ken said it was "due" but ED waived it...

I'm guessing there was some set of timed clauses on that debt he left in.

Not sure the full £15M is due. We owe ED 5M for his loan in September that stopped us from going into admin with the BM thing. We owe BW 2M a longstanding debt. And I believe the PbP debt is ~ £5M too.

Then add to that the part of ED's longer debt that it seems might now be payable. Estimates (and indeed Ken's words - for what they are worth) put it at £20M total.

[Prufrock]

^ I could be being a bit numb here but is a £20m debt that big a deal to anyone purchasing the club? It's relatively small compared to other clubs and aren't we actually running at a very small profit now, since the outgoings reduced?

Could a new owner just take over and chip away at the debt or does it have to be paid in full by anyone new coming in?

Not all debts are the same. For example a club might be "100M" in debt to their owner who would wipe off the majority on a sale completion.

Any new owner would have to be able to satisfy the EFL that they could run the business as a going concern. Immediately that requires proving they have funds to cover the losses (reported to be £3M) for the rest of the season and projected losses for the coming season.

That is an absolute. Then they'd have to show ability to service any debts due within a certain period. They could say "we'll renegotiate the terms" but would have to prove an ability to do so. IF said new owner is wealthy then it isn't unreasonable to expect BW, PBP and ED's trust to say "pay us in full by the dates stipulated or else". If they aren't then all three lenders have shown a willingness to help the club. But if the new owners aren't able to service that debt - would they be able to cover our losses?

The reality is that we aren't a very attractive proposition. As a business on paper we're not good. As a football club our potential is not great enough (our stadium size and realistic fanbase maximum is way below other clubs in similar positions). Any buyer will look at the need to find £20 odd million (realistically that's the need) and probably see other clubs like Wigan without such a large up front investment required. Or see clubs with larger potentials relative to the initial investment.

And when the answer is "no, renegotiate or we'll go elsewhere and you'll get ps in the £ on admin" what do you think the response would be?

I don't think we're that bad a buy for someone with money, but it doesn't sound like there are many. And that lizard wants his pay day.

[BWFC_Insane]

^ I could be being a bit numb here but is a £20m debt that big a deal to anyone purchasing the club? It's relatively small compared to other clubs and aren't we actually running at a very small profit now, since the outgoings reduced?

Could a new owner just take over and chip away at the debt or does it have to be paid in full by anyone new coming in?

Not all debts are the same. For example a club might be "100M" in debt to their owner who would wipe off the majority on a sale completion.

Any new owner would have to be able to satisfy the EFL that they could run the business as a going concern. Immediately that requires proving they have funds to cover the losses (reported to be £3M) for the rest of the season and projected losses for the coming season.

That is an absolute. Then they'd have to show ability to service any debts due within a certain period. They could say "we'll renegotiate the terms" but would have to prove an ability to do so. IF said new owner is wealthy then it isn't unreasonable to expect BW, PBP and ED's trust to say "pay us in full by the dates stipulated or else". If they aren't then all three lenders have shown a willingness to help the club. But if the new owners aren't able to service that debt - would they be able to cover our losses?

The reality is that we aren't a very attractive proposition. As a business on paper we're not good. As a football club our potential is not great enough (our stadium size and realistic fanbase maximum is way below other clubs in similar positions). Any buyer will look at the need to find £20 odd million (realistically that's the need) and probably see other clubs like Wigan without such a large up front investment required. Or see clubs with larger potentials relative to the initial investment.

And when the answer is "no, renegotiate or we'll go elsewhere and you'll get ps in the £ on admin" what do you think the response would be?

I don't think we're that bad a buy for someone with money, but it doesn't sound like there are many. And that lizard wants his pay day.

That isn't how it works. They have to prove things to the EFL - and if they cannot get written assurances from those creditors the sale will not go through if that is what the proof relies on.

[Gary the Enfield]

Been a while since I looked but isn't £15m of the debt to ED's family contingent on us being promoted to the Premier League? In which case:
a) We don't need to worry about it and
b) it would be paid out of the Sky TV money so we don't need to worry about it.

How dare you point that out!

[BWFC_Insane]

Been a while since I looked but isn't £15m of the debt to ED's family contingent on us being promoted to the Premier League? In which case:
a) We don't need to worry about it and
b) it would be paid out of the Sky TV money so we don't need to worry about it.

How dare you point that out!

Nice flippant remark. However as I outlined above that seems to have changed OR was not accurately reported initially based on Ken's statements to the fans forum etc....

[nicholaldo]

^ I could be being a bit numb here but is a £20m debt that big a deal to anyone purchasing the club? It's relatively small compared to other clubs and aren't we actually running at a very small profit now, since the outgoings reduced?

Could a new owner just take over and chip away at the debt or does it have to be paid in full by anyone new coming in?

Not all debts are the same. For example a club might be "100M" in debt to their owner who would wipe off the majority on a sale completion.

Any new owner would have to be able to satisfy the EFL that they could run the business as a going concern. Immediately that requires proving they have funds to cover the losses (reported to be £3M) for the rest of the season and projected losses for the coming season.

That is an absolute. Then they'd have to show ability to service any debts due within a certain period. They could say "we'll renegotiate the terms" but would have to prove an ability to do so. IF said new owner is wealthy then it isn't unreasonable to expect BW, PBP and ED's trust to say "pay us in full by the dates stipulated or else". If they aren't then all three lenders have shown a willingness to help the club. But if the new owners aren't able to service that debt - would they be able to cover our losses?

The reality is that we aren't a very attractive proposition. As a business on paper we're not good. As a football club our potential is not great enough (our stadium size and realistic fanbase maximum is way below other clubs in similar positions). Any buyer will look at the need to find £20 odd million (realistically that's the need) and probably see other clubs like Wigan without such a large up front investment required.Or see clubs with larger potentials relative to the initial investment.

I won't pretend to be an expert on all things financial, but haven't they recently found a buyer and completed a takeover for a similar price to what we've (reportedly) been asking for?

[BWFC_Insane]

^ I could be being a bit numb here but is a £20m debt that big a deal to anyone purchasing the club? It's relatively small compared to other clubs and aren't we actually running at a very small profit now, since the outgoings reduced?

Could a new owner just take over and chip away at the debt or does it have to be paid in full by anyone new coming in?

Not all debts are the same. For example a club might be "100M" in debt to their owner who would wipe off the majority on a sale completion.

Any new owner would have to be able to satisfy the EFL that they could run the business as a going concern. Immediately that requires proving they have funds to cover the losses (reported to be £3M) for the rest of the season and projected losses for the coming season.

That is an absolute. Then they'd have to show ability to service any debts due within a certain period. They could say "we'll renegotiate the terms" but would have to prove an ability to do so. IF said new owner is wealthy then it isn't unreasonable to expect BW, PBP and ED's trust to say "pay us in full by the dates stipulated or else". If they aren't then all three lenders have shown a willingness to help the club. But if the new owners aren't able to service that debt - would they be able to cover our losses?

The reality is that we aren't a very attractive proposition. As a business on paper we're not good. As a football club our potential is not great enough (our stadium size and realistic fanbase maximum is way below other clubs in similar positions). Any buyer will look at the need to find £20 odd million (realistically that's the need) and probably see other clubs like Wigan without such a large up front investment required.Or see clubs with larger potentials relative to the initial investment.

I won't pretend to be an expert on all things financial, but haven't they recently found a buyer and completed a takeover for a similar price to what we've (reportedly) been asking for?

They did. I'm not sure how that deal was structured, but my understanding is that Wigan's debts were low single figures of millions.

It shows there are buyers out there. The issue we have is ongoing losses and debts. It means the initial outlay is high for what you get.

Wigan's sale also took over 12 months to get over the line - from initial announcement of serious discussions and intent.

[Gary the Enfield]

Been a while since I looked but isn't £15m of the debt to ED's family contingent on us being promoted to the Premier League? In which case:
a) We don't need to worry about it and
b) it would be paid out of the Sky TV money so we don't need to worry about it.

How dare you point that out!

Nice flippant remark. However as I outlined above that seems to have changed OR was not accurately reported initially based on Ken's statements to the fans forum etc....

So you're reliant on Ken telling the truth in this one? Riiiiight.

[BWFC_Insane]

Been a while since I looked but isn't £15m of the debt to ED's family contingent on us being promoted to the Premier League? In which case:
a) We don't need to worry about it and
b) it would be paid out of the Sky TV money so we don't need to worry about it.

How dare you point that out!

Nice flippant remark. However as I outlined above that seems to have changed OR was not accurately reported initially based on Ken's statements to the fans forum etc....

So you're reliant on Ken telling the truth in this one? Riiiiight.

Oh indeed. It could be a nonsense. But saying ED had agreed to defer the payment was not something you'd imagine Ken would want to advertise. Either way he's said the debt that would need servicing stands at £20M. Again a figure I cannot imagine he'd want to artificially inflate!