Are we still here? Are you sure!

[Gary the Enfield]

Been a while since I looked but isn't £15m of the debt to ED's family contingent on us being promoted to the Premier League? In which case:
a) We don't need to worry about it and
b) it would be paid out of the Sky TV money so we don't need to worry about it.

How dare you point that out!

Nice flippant remark. However as I outlined above that seems to have changed OR was not accurately reported initially based on Ken's statements to the fans forum etc....

So you're reliant on Ken telling the truth in this one? Riiiiight.

Oh indeed. It could be a nonsense. But saying ED had agreed to defer the payment was not something you'd imagine Ken would want to advertise. Either way he's said the debt that would need servicing stands at £20M. Again a figure I cannot imagine he'd want to artificially inflate!

Makes him look better when he's giving off about how much of his own money he's using to service this (non) debt.

[Prufrock]

^ I could be being a bit numb here but is a £20m debt that big a deal to anyone purchasing the club? It's relatively small compared to other clubs and aren't we actually running at a very small profit now, since the outgoings reduced?

Could a new owner just take over and chip away at the debt or does it have to be paid in full by anyone new coming in?

Not all debts are the same. For example a club might be "100M" in debt to their owner who would wipe off the majority on a sale completion.

Any new owner would have to be able to satisfy the EFL that they could run the business as a going concern. Immediately that requires proving they have funds to cover the losses (reported to be £3M) for the rest of the season and projected losses for the coming season.

That is an absolute. Then they'd have to show ability to service any debts due within a certain period. They could say "we'll renegotiate the terms" but would have to prove an ability to do so. IF said new owner is wealthy then it isn't unreasonable to expect BW, PBP and ED's trust to say "pay us in full by the dates stipulated or else". If they aren't then all three lenders have shown a willingness to help the club. But if the new owners aren't able to service that debt - would they be able to cover our losses?

The reality is that we aren't a very attractive proposition. As a business on paper we're not good. As a football club our potential is not great enough (our stadium size and realistic fanbase maximum is way below other clubs in similar positions). Any buyer will look at the need to find £20 odd million (realistically that's the need) and probably see other clubs like Wigan without such a large up front investment required. Or see clubs with larger potentials relative to the initial investment.

And when the answer is "no, renegotiate or we'll go elsewhere and you'll get ps in the £ on admin" what do you think the response would be?

I don't think we're that bad a buy for someone with money, but it doesn't sound like there are many. And that lizard wants his pay day.

That isn't how it works. They have to prove things to the EFL - and if they cannot get written assurances from those creditors the sale will not go through if that is what the proof relies on.

...and the creditors would obviously give them (as in this hypothetical scenario the people have money).

-We're willing to take over and pay you back over 5 years.
-no we're owed now
-we're not willing to put up that much up front, it's over 5 years and we're not buying and you can try to get it from Ken
-5 years it is.

Point is someone with money wouldn't need £25m up front.

[Prufrock]

Have we had his latest incoherent ramblings?

https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2019/januar ... chairman2/

[BWFC_Insane]

^ I could be being a bit numb here but is a £20m debt that big a deal to anyone purchasing the club? It's relatively small compared to other clubs and aren't we actually running at a very small profit now, since the outgoings reduced?

Could a new owner just take over and chip away at the debt or does it have to be paid in full by anyone new coming in?

Not all debts are the same. For example a club might be "100M" in debt to their owner who would wipe off the majority on a sale completion.

Any new owner would have to be able to satisfy the EFL that they could run the business as a going concern. Immediately that requires proving they have funds to cover the losses (reported to be £3M) for the rest of the season and projected losses for the coming season.

That is an absolute. Then they'd have to show ability to service any debts due within a certain period. They could say "we'll renegotiate the terms" but would have to prove an ability to do so. IF said new owner is wealthy then it isn't unreasonable to expect BW, PBP and ED's trust to say "pay us in full by the dates stipulated or else". If they aren't then all three lenders have shown a willingness to help the club. But if the new owners aren't able to service that debt - would they be able to cover our losses?

The reality is that we aren't a very attractive proposition. As a business on paper we're not good. As a football club our potential is not great enough (our stadium size and realistic fanbase maximum is way below other clubs in similar positions). Any buyer will look at the need to find £20 odd million (realistically that's the need) and probably see other clubs like Wigan without such a large up front investment required. Or see clubs with larger potentials relative to the initial investment.

And when the answer is "no, renegotiate or we'll go elsewhere and you'll get ps in the £ on admin" what do you think the response would be?

I don't think we're that bad a buy for someone with money, but it doesn't sound like there are many. And that lizard wants his pay day.

That isn't how it works. They have to prove things to the EFL - and if they cannot get written assurances from those creditors the sale will not go through if that is what the proof relies on.

...and the creditors would obviously give them (as in this hypothetical scenario the people have money).

-We're willing to take over and pay you back over 5 years.
-no we're owed now
-we're not willing to put up that much up front, it's over 5 years and we're not buying and you can try to get it from Ken
-5 years it is.

Point is someone with money wouldn't need £25m up front.

Absolutely that is possible in some cases that there would be a possibility for re-negotiation of terms, subject to any successful takeover. The reality even then though is that someone is signing up to guarantee those debts.

The risk that has grown with EDs passing is that those debts (and arguably the PbP debts) are not as easy to renegotiate as they once were. Ken has managed to kick the can down the road because ED did not want the club to go into admin. Not sure it is as easy now - hence our recent troubles with seemingly no financial backstop.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I've heard some hysterical bollox in my life, but the latest panic fanny hysteria surrounding the club right now really is of the highest order.
Discuss (and vote - probably the only opportunity you'll get).

Hysterical? What do you see as the viable ways out from our current position?

There are only 2 - Anderson sells. We enter admin.

Which would you say is the most likely?

Errrrr... Anderson stays, we don't go into administration...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Have we had his latest incoherent ramblings?

https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2019/januar ... chairman2/

Incoherent? Seemed to be in plain English to me.

[BWFC_Insane]

I've heard some hysterical bollox in my life, but the latest panic fanny hysteria surrounding the club right now really is of the highest order.
Discuss (and vote - probably the only opportunity you'll get).

Hysterical? What do you see as the viable ways out from our current position?

There are only 2 - Anderson sells. We enter admin.

Which would you say is the most likely?

Errrrr... Anderson stays, we don't go into administration...

Given we are unable to pay our bills - if that did happen where does the club end up? We've just lost two players as we cannot pay our "football creditors" on time. By his own admission he does not have the funds required to support the club.

I do not see him staying long term as an option. We'd not see out next season IMHO.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I've heard some hysterical bollox in my life, but the latest panic fanny hysteria surrounding the club right now really is of the highest order.
Discuss (and vote - probably the only opportunity you'll get).

Hysterical? What do you see as the viable ways out from our current position?

There are only 2 - Anderson sells. We enter admin.

Which would you say is the most likely?

Errrrr... Anderson stays, we don't go into administration...

Given we are unable to pay our bills - if that did happen where does the club end up? We've just lost two players as we cannot pay our "football creditors" on time. By his own admission he does not have the funds required to support the club.

I do not see him staying long term as an option. We'd not see out next season IMHO.

Have you been asleep for the last four or five years?
How many fxcking times have we thrown our arms in the air and proclaimed " We're doooooomed"?
You love it. Every fxcking time you play it up - it's almost a fetish with you.
I'm pretty sure that next year, same time different division, you'll equally be proclaiming our imminent dissolution, ignoring the fact (as you have done at least three times previously when you also proclaimed it INEVITABLE that we were fxcked then too) that we've survived worse.
It's, at most, twenty mill. Probably six mill and two peanuts. Jeff Bezos doesn't even get out of bed for that piffly amount.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Phew .. *wipes brow* Nearly 24 hours since this thread was conceived, and Bolton Wanderers STILL EXISTS!
How miraculous is that? Could it be that we might still be in existence for our next match?

[BWFC_Insane]

I've heard some hysterical bollox in my life, but the latest panic fanny hysteria surrounding the club right now really is of the highest order.
Discuss (and vote - probably the only opportunity you'll get).

Hysterical? What do you see as the viable ways out from our current position?

There are only 2 - Anderson sells. We enter admin.

Which would you say is the most likely?

Errrrr... Anderson stays, we don't go into administration...

Given we are unable to pay our bills - if that did happen where does the club end up? We've just lost two players as we cannot pay our "football creditors" on time. By his own admission he does not have the funds required to support the club.

I do not see him staying long term as an option. We'd not see out next season IMHO.

Have you been asleep for the last four or five years?
How many fxcking times have we thrown our arms in the air and proclaimed " We're doooooomed"?
You love it. Every fxcking time you play it up - it's almost a fetish with you.
I'm pretty sure that next year, same time different division, you'll equally be proclaiming our imminent dissolution, ignoring the fact (as you have done at least three times previously when you also proclaimed it INEVITABLE that we were fxcked then too) that we've survived worse.
It's, at most, twenty mill. Probably six mill and two peanuts. Jeff Bezos doesn't even get out of bed for that piffly amount.

Like a typical Brexiteer. A load of bluster, but absolutely no detail.

We currently lose 3M a year. We currently have no cash until the EFL payment clears mid January. We are reliant on Ken (who has said doesn't have the capability to bail us out) to bridge short term gaps. At the end of the year there is a 3M hole unless we sell players. Added to that there is the likely prospect of relegation and the loss of circa 6M income that entails. You haven't explained how we can continue to exist under these circumstances. Especially now that the ED backstop is no longer there to step in.

On the contrary I'm saying that our only options are a sale or admin. Admin looks more likely but it isn't necessarily doom, nor is it a quick fix panacea. But we are at the point where we don't have many options.

We owe money to an ever increasing list of people. Note that two more active winding up orders have just surfaced.

We still have not paid all our current employees everything they are contractually owed and also owe money to former employees who left over 18 months ago. That is all after we have the football monies automatically deducted from our next league payment.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I've heard some hysterical bollox in my life, but the latest panic fanny hysteria surrounding the club right now really is of the highest order.
Discuss (and vote - probably the only opportunity you'll get).

Hysterical? What do you see as the viable ways out from our current position?

There are only 2 - Anderson sells. We enter admin.

Which would you say is the most likely?

Errrrr... Anderson stays, we don't go into administration...

Given we are unable to pay our bills - if that did happen where does the club end up? We've just lost two players as we cannot pay our "football creditors" on time. By his own admission he does not have the funds required to support the club.

I do not see him staying long term as an option. We'd not see out next season IMHO.

Have you been asleep for the last four or five years?
How many fxcking times have we thrown our arms in the air and proclaimed " We're doooooomed"?
You love it. Every fxcking time you play it up - it's almost a fetish with you.
I'm pretty sure that next year, same time different division, you'll equally be proclaiming our imminent dissolution, ignoring the fact (as you have done at least three times previously when you also proclaimed it INEVITABLE that we were fxcked then too) that we've survived worse.
It's, at most, twenty mill. Probably six mill and two peanuts. Jeff Bezos doesn't even get out of bed for that piffly amount.

Like a typical Brexiteer. A load of bluster, but absolutely no detail.

We currently lose 3M a year. We currently have no cash until the EFL payment clears mid January. We are reliant on Ken (who has said doesn't have the capability to bail us out) to bridge short term gaps. At the end of the year there is a 3M hole unless we sell players. Added to that there is the likely prospect of relegation and the loss of circa 6M income that entails. You haven't explained how we can continue to exist under these circumstances. Especially now that the ED backstop is no longer there to step in.

On the contrary I'm saying that our only options are a sale or admin. Admin looks more likely but it isn't necessarily doom, nor is it a quick fix panacea. But we are at the point where we don't have many options.

We owe money to an ever increasing list of people. Note that two more active winding up orders have just surfaced.

We still have not paid all our current employees everything they are contractually owed and also owe money to former employees who left over 18 months ago. That is all after we have the football monies automatically deducted from our next league payment.

You constantly go on and on. There is not this binary choice between Anderson selling and Admin.
Things aren't as black and white as you make out.
WHAT OTHER DETAIL DO YOU REQUIRE?

[BWFC_Insane]

I've heard some hysterical bollox in my life, but the latest panic fanny hysteria surrounding the club right now really is of the highest order.
Discuss (and vote - probably the only opportunity you'll get).

Hysterical? What do you see as the viable ways out from our current position?

There are only 2 - Anderson sells. We enter admin.

Which would you say is the most likely?

Errrrr... Anderson stays, we don't go into administration...

Given we are unable to pay our bills - if that did happen where does the club end up? We've just lost two players as we cannot pay our "football creditors" on time. By his own admission he does not have the funds required to support the club.

I do not see him staying long term as an option. We'd not see out next season IMHO.

Have you been asleep for the last four or five years?
How many fxcking times have we thrown our arms in the air and proclaimed " We're doooooomed"?
You love it. Every fxcking time you play it up - it's almost a fetish with you.
I'm pretty sure that next year, same time different division, you'll equally be proclaiming our imminent dissolution, ignoring the fact (as you have done at least three times previously when you also proclaimed it INEVITABLE that we were fxcked then too) that we've survived worse.
It's, at most, twenty mill. Probably six mill and two peanuts. Jeff Bezos doesn't even get out of bed for that piffly amount.

Like a typical Brexiteer. A load of bluster, but absolutely no detail.

We currently lose 3M a year. We currently have no cash until the EFL payment clears mid January. We are reliant on Ken (who has said doesn't have the capability to bail us out) to bridge short term gaps. At the end of the year there is a 3M hole unless we sell players. Added to that there is the likely prospect of relegation and the loss of circa 6M income that entails. You haven't explained how we can continue to exist under these circumstances. Especially now that the ED backstop is no longer there to step in.

On the contrary I'm saying that our only options are a sale or admin. Admin looks more likely but it isn't necessarily doom, nor is it a quick fix panacea. But we are at the point where we don't have many options.

We owe money to an ever increasing list of people. Note that two more active winding up orders have just surfaced.

We still have not paid all our current employees everything they are contractually owed and also owe money to former employees who left over 18 months ago. That is all after we have the football monies automatically deducted from our next league payment.

You constantly go on and on. There is not this binary choice between Anderson selling and Admin.
Things aren't as black and white as you make out.
WHAT OTHER DETAIL DO YOU REQUIRE?

What I required in the first place. An explanation as to how else the losses and existing debt can be managed?

You’ve yet to offer one. Ken himself has only two days ago said he knows he needs to sell the club.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I've heard some hysterical bollox in my life, but the latest panic fanny hysteria surrounding the club right now really is of the highest order.
Discuss (and vote - probably the only opportunity you'll get).

Hysterical? What do you see as the viable ways out from our current position?

There are only 2 - Anderson sells. We enter admin.

Which would you say is the most likely?

Errrrr... Anderson stays, we don't go into administration...

Given we are unable to pay our bills - if that did happen where does the club end up? We've just lost two players as we cannot pay our "football creditors" on time. By his own admission he does not have the funds required to support the club.

I do not see him staying long term as an option. We'd not see out next season IMHO.

Have you been asleep for the last four or five years?
How many fxcking times have we thrown our arms in the air and proclaimed " We're doooooomed"?
You love it. Every fxcking time you play it up - it's almost a fetish with you.
I'm pretty sure that next year, same time different division, you'll equally be proclaiming our imminent dissolution, ignoring the fact (as you have done at least three times previously when you also proclaimed it INEVITABLE that we were fxcked then too) that we've survived worse.
It's, at most, twenty mill. Probably six mill and two peanuts. Jeff Bezos doesn't even get out of bed for that piffly amount.

Like a typical Brexiteer. A load of bluster, but absolutely no detail.

We currently lose 3M a year. We currently have no cash until the EFL payment clears mid January. We are reliant on Ken (who has said doesn't have the capability to bail us out) to bridge short term gaps. At the end of the year there is a 3M hole unless we sell players. Added to that there is the likely prospect of relegation and the loss of circa 6M income that entails. You haven't explained how we can continue to exist under these circumstances. Especially now that the ED backstop is no longer there to step in.

On the contrary I'm saying that our only options are a sale or admin. Admin looks more likely but it isn't necessarily doom, nor is it a quick fix panacea. But we are at the point where we don't have many options.

We owe money to an ever increasing list of people. Note that two more active winding up orders have just surfaced.

We still have not paid all our current employees everything they are contractually owed and also owe money to former employees who left over 18 months ago. That is all after we have the football monies automatically deducted from our next league payment.

You constantly go on and on. There is not this binary choice between Anderson selling and Admin.
Things aren't as black and white as you make out.
WHAT OTHER DETAIL DO YOU REQUIRE?

What I required in the first place. An explanation as to how else the losses and existing debt can be managed?

You’ve yet to offer one. Ken himself has only two days ago said he knows he needs to sell the club.

You're tenacious, I'll give you that.
Firstly, a bunch of dickheads in parliament vote to disrupt payments to ameliorate a no-brexit deal in order to stop a no-brexit deal they have no power to impede, thus making any preparations for what they can't stop worse.
Then you demand I tell you how the only two ways that you think the future can go, can't go a third way.

When did logic stop being taught in school?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

PS. The Loss And Existing Debt is LESS than four years ago (for example).
PPS Some companies expand on debt. It's called CAPITALISM.

[officer_dibble]

Two more winding up petitions in - one is HMRC.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Two more winding up petitions in - one is HMRC.

We've been there before too (or is that fyve).

[BWFC_Insane]

I've heard some hysterical bollox in my life, but the latest panic fanny hysteria surrounding the club right now really is of the highest order.
Discuss (and vote - probably the only opportunity you'll get).

Hysterical? What do you see as the viable ways out from our current position?

There are only 2 - Anderson sells. We enter admin.

Which would you say is the most likely?

Errrrr... Anderson stays, we don't go into administration...

Given we are unable to pay our bills - if that did happen where does the club end up? We've just lost two players as we cannot pay our "football creditors" on time. By his own admission he does not have the funds required to support the club.

I do not see him staying long term as an option. We'd not see out next season IMHO.

Have you been asleep for the last four or five years?
How many fxcking times have we thrown our arms in the air and proclaimed " We're doooooomed"?
You love it. Every fxcking time you play it up - it's almost a fetish with you.
I'm pretty sure that next year, same time different division, you'll equally be proclaiming our imminent dissolution, ignoring the fact (as you have done at least three times previously when you also proclaimed it INEVITABLE that we were fxcked then too) that we've survived worse.
It's, at most, twenty mill. Probably six mill and two peanuts. Jeff Bezos doesn't even get out of bed for that piffly amount.

Like a typical Brexiteer. A load of bluster, but absolutely no detail.

We currently lose 3M a year. We currently have no cash until the EFL payment clears mid January. We are reliant on Ken (who has said doesn't have the capability to bail us out) to bridge short term gaps. At the end of the year there is a 3M hole unless we sell players. Added to that there is the likely prospect of relegation and the loss of circa 6M income that entails. You haven't explained how we can continue to exist under these circumstances. Especially now that the ED backstop is no longer there to step in.

On the contrary I'm saying that our only options are a sale or admin. Admin looks more likely but it isn't necessarily doom, nor is it a quick fix panacea. But we are at the point where we don't have many options.

We owe money to an ever increasing list of people. Note that two more active winding up orders have just surfaced.

We still have not paid all our current employees everything they are contractually owed and also owe money to former employees who left over 18 months ago. That is all after we have the football monies automatically deducted from our next league payment.

You constantly go on and on. There is not this binary choice between Anderson selling and Admin.
Things aren't as black and white as you make out.
WHAT OTHER DETAIL DO YOU REQUIRE?

What I required in the first place. An explanation as to how else the losses and existing debt can be managed?

You’ve yet to offer one. Ken himself has only two days ago said he knows he needs to sell the club.

You're tenacious, I'll give you that.
Firstly, a bunch of dickheads in parliament vote to disrupt payments to ameliorate a no-brexit deal in order to stop a no-brexit deal they have no power to impede, thus making any preparations for what they can't stop worse.
Then you demand I tell you how the only two ways that you think the future can go, can't go a third way.

When did logic stop being taught in school?

Still no answer. The future if Ken continues to kick the can down the road is bleaker than anything. But I struggle to see how he can do so for much longer. Unless he gets very lucky and manages to sell some players for a few million. I guess it’s a possibility. But it gets us to next season. Then at current run rate the losses increase, again.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I've heard some hysterical bollox in my life, but the latest panic fanny hysteria surrounding the club right now really is of the highest order.
Discuss (and vote - probably the only opportunity you'll get).

Hysterical? What do you see as the viable ways out from our current position?

There are only 2 - Anderson sells. We enter admin.

Which would you say is the most likely?

Errrrr... Anderson stays, we don't go into administration...

Given we are unable to pay our bills - if that did happen where does the club end up? We've just lost two players as we cannot pay our "football creditors" on time. By his own admission he does not have the funds required to support the club.

I do not see him staying long term as an option. We'd not see out next season IMHO.

Have you been asleep for the last four or five years?
How many fxcking times have we thrown our arms in the air and proclaimed " We're doooooomed"?
You love it. Every fxcking time you play it up - it's almost a fetish with you.
I'm pretty sure that next year, same time different division, you'll equally be proclaiming our imminent dissolution, ignoring the fact (as you have done at least three times previously when you also proclaimed it INEVITABLE that we were fxcked then too) that we've survived worse.
It's, at most, twenty mill. Probably six mill and two peanuts. Jeff Bezos doesn't even get out of bed for that piffly amount.

Like a typical Brexiteer. A load of bluster, but absolutely no detail.

We currently lose 3M a year. We currently have no cash until the EFL payment clears mid January. We are reliant on Ken (who has said doesn't have the capability to bail us out) to bridge short term gaps. At the end of the year there is a 3M hole unless we sell players. Added to that there is the likely prospect of relegation and the loss of circa 6M income that entails. You haven't explained how we can continue to exist under these circumstances. Especially now that the ED backstop is no longer there to step in.

On the contrary I'm saying that our only options are a sale or admin. Admin looks more likely but it isn't necessarily doom, nor is it a quick fix panacea. But we are at the point where we don't have many options.

We owe money to an ever increasing list of people. Note that two more active winding up orders have just surfaced.

We still have not paid all our current employees everything they are contractually owed and also owe money to former employees who left over 18 months ago. That is all after we have the football monies automatically deducted from our next league payment.

You constantly go on and on. There is not this binary choice between Anderson selling and Admin.
Things aren't as black and white as you make out.
WHAT OTHER DETAIL DO YOU REQUIRE?

What I required in the first place. An explanation as to how else the losses and existing debt can be managed?

You’ve yet to offer one. Ken himself has only two days ago said he knows he needs to sell the club.

You're tenacious, I'll give you that.
Firstly, a bunch of dickheads in parliament vote to disrupt payments to ameliorate a no-brexit deal in order to stop a no-brexit deal they have no power to impede, thus making any preparations for what they can't stop worse.
Then you demand I tell you how the only two ways that you think the future can go, can't go a third way.

When did logic stop being taught in school?

Still no answer. The future if Ken continues to kick the can down the road is bleaker than anything. But I struggle to see how he can do so for much longer. Unless he gets very lucky and manages to sell some players for a few million. I guess it’s a possibility. But it gets us to next season. Then at current run rate the losses increase, again.

I've given you an answer. A specific one. Only you're deaf to it...
Let me put it another way: How many days need to elapse to show that YOUR binary choice of Anderson goes/BWFC folds isn't the only choice????
1?
10?
30?
How about 62? No!?
90 then???
Let's come back in 90 days [9th April] and review how completely and utterly wrong you are.

[TonyDomingos]

Didn't we establish some years ago that it's 48 hours? Always 48 hours.

[Enoch]

I'm always happy with 42.