Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:10 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:20 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:25 am
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:31 pm
LeverEnd wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:47 pm
I think the fan attitude has to be that relegation is happening, and any improvement between now and then should be a bonus and applauded.
I'd agree with that. Personally, I don't want us to set up to be hard to beat whilst offering nothing at the other end. We've had two seasons of that. It might take time for Hill to stamp his style and authority on the side but I can wait.
There is absolutely no point in setting up to get beat 5 and 6 nil week after week. Whilst players are acclimatising and getting fit we need to find a way to limit the damage at least. Get Lowe and Bridcutt in as holding players and try to screen the back four. Sit deeper. No point just opening up and taking beatings for no reason.
Agreed but then I don't see the point in sticking 11 men behind the ball for 90 minutes in the usual vain hope we might get a goalless draw. Hill has a reputation for attacking sides, I'm sure that's what he'll try to build.
In the long run but priority right now has to be staying in games and not getting thumped. Can’t just suddenly set up like Liverpool do when you’ve got an unfit team of cast offs. I’d like to see some reality. As in let’s try and make it hard for the other team to score at least.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by Jugs » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:03 am

... And if we sit back and get battered 5-0 anyway, fans will have a moan then as well and say it's back to the bad-old-days.

Hill is an experienced manager - I'm sure he'll work out what went wrong yesterday and what needs to be sorted out before Oxford and Sunderland. Hopefully, by the Sunderland game we'll be looking somewhat competitive.

What I'd like is some news about when our strikers will be fit.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:25 am

Jugs wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:03 am
... And if we sit back and get battered 5-0 anyway, fans will have a moan then as well and say it's back to the bad-old-days.

Hill is an experienced manager - I'm sure he'll work out what went wrong yesterday and what needs to be sorted out before Oxford and Sunderland. Hopefully, by the Sunderland game we'll be looking somewhat competitive.

What I'd like is some news about when our strikers will be fit.
This 100% - we can't afford to play many more games without a recognised striker. IMO this buzz / new dawn will only last a few more weeks if we keep getting beat by 5 or 6, it won't last months unless we get a few decent results, this is League 1 not the championship.

If Murphy & O'Grady are both weeks away from playing, he needs to bring someone else in ASAP this week. I also don't get this about fans getting stick for leaving at 4 or 5 down yesterday (on other forums, twitter etc), however loyal the fans are & have been - the fans hurt when we continually get beat by 5 or 6 week after week, it will test even the most loyal of fans. The majority of fans are realistic, but that doesn't mean that they just have to sit there and accept heavy defeats week after week.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:01 am

Jugs wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:03 am
... And if we sit back and get battered 5-0 anyway, fans will have a moan then as well and say it's back to the bad-old-days.

Hill is an experienced manager - I'm sure he'll work out what went wrong yesterday and what needs to be sorted out before Oxford and Sunderland. Hopefully, by the Sunderland game we'll be looking somewhat competitive.

What I'd like is some news about when our strikers will be fit.
Having been yesterday there is zero chance this is sorted in a week. I’d say we are 5 or 6 weeks behind teams fitness wise.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by Jugs » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:01 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:01 am
Jugs wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:03 am
... And if we sit back and get battered 5-0 anyway, fans will have a moan then as well and say it's back to the bad-old-days.

Hill is an experienced manager - I'm sure he'll work out what went wrong yesterday and what needs to be sorted out before Oxford and Sunderland. Hopefully, by the Sunderland game we'll be looking somewhat competitive.

What I'd like is some news about when our strikers will be fit.
Having been yesterday there is zero chance this is sorted in a week. I’d say we are 5 or 6 weeks behind teams fitness wise.
I was there too. I meant in terms of how we approach games. Hill isn't stupid - he'll know what needs tweaking.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:05 pm

The writing was on the wall the moment the line-up was announced and we had no proper focal point up front. Factor in that this is a team that's barely trained with each other nevermind never having played together and it was inevitable we'd struggle.

We can only hope the defensive unit improves once they've put more work in on the training ground, but I thought we might've started with Lowe and Bridcutt as two of the midfield three to offer a sense of solidity which would help compensate for the lack of a target man, and that we would've been better for it. But ultimately, I imagine it would only have served to keep the score down.

What did concern me yesterday (apart from the poor defensive organisation, which I'm choosing to put down to a lack of familiarity) was how small our players seemed to be in comparison to the players they were up against, particularly further forward, which is something I think Hill recognised by bringing Lowe back to full-back and pushing Emmanuel up at the start of the second-half. I expect that when everybody is available for selection Buckley will start because Hill and Flitcroft rate him, but also because he's taller.

Let's just see how we're playing in a months' time, though. I'm confident we'll at least be more competitive by then.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:09 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:25 am
Jugs wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:03 am
... And if we sit back and get battered 5-0 anyway, fans will have a moan then as well and say it's back to the bad-old-days.

Hill is an experienced manager - I'm sure he'll work out what went wrong yesterday and what needs to be sorted out before Oxford and Sunderland. Hopefully, by the Sunderland game we'll be looking somewhat competitive.

What I'd like is some news about when our strikers will be fit.
This 100% - we can't afford to play many more games without a recognised striker. IMO this buzz / new dawn will only last a few more weeks if we keep getting beat by 5 or 6, it won't last months unless we get a few decent results, this is League 1 not the championship.

If Murphy & O'Grady are both weeks away from playing, he needs to bring someone else in ASAP this week. I also don't get this about fans getting stick for leaving at 4 or 5 down yesterday (on other forums, twitter etc), however loyal the fans are & have been - the fans hurt when we continually get beat by 5 or 6 week after week, it will test even the most loyal of fans. The majority of fans are realistic, but that doesn't mean that they just have to sit there and accept heavy defeats week after week.

I agree with you about us having no recognised centre forward. I don't know if there's a footballing version of realpolitik but, although neither are currently match fit, I think we'll have to find a way to start Murphy or O'Grady very quickly.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:51 pm

I thought that his (Hill's) post match interview was very strange - a bit Eric Cantona.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:59 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:51 pm
I thought that his (Hill's) post match interview was very strange - a bit Eric Cantona.

Nah, it's just his style.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:38 pm

Jugs wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:01 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:01 am
Jugs wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:03 am
... And if we sit back and get battered 5-0 anyway, fans will have a moan then as well and say it's back to the bad-old-days.

Hill is an experienced manager - I'm sure he'll work out what went wrong yesterday and what needs to be sorted out before Oxford and Sunderland. Hopefully, by the Sunderland game we'll be looking somewhat competitive.

What I'd like is some news about when our strikers will be fit.
Having been yesterday there is zero chance this is sorted in a week. I’d say we are 5 or 6 weeks behind teams fitness wise.
I was there too. I meant in terms of how we approach games. Hill isn't stupid - he'll know what needs tweaking.
In the very short term we need to setup to keep the score down. Get Lowe in. Leave out Politic and Verlinden who both abandoned their full backs. Be workmanlike. We are going to lose but things will get very old if we ship 4 plus goals a game.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by taddyontoast » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:35 pm

I think it's a bit early to panic about shipping 4 goals every game. I also think it's a bit early to be writing the manager off as naive or tactically inept.

I think hill and flitcroft will have learned lots - i think there is a very real sense that a couple of weeks training in an international break can only tell you so much. An actual competitive game is the real thing and both hill and flitcroft (I'll wager) have at least as much nouse and managerial experience as most of us on here to see flaws and weaknesses and imagine solutions...

I don't think I'll be on their back for a considerable while yet - I'm still happy to actually HAVE a team to ruin my weekend - unlike Bury fans...

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by Jugs » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:19 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:38 pm
Jugs wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:01 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:01 am
Jugs wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:03 am
... And if we sit back and get battered 5-0 anyway, fans will have a moan then as well and say it's back to the bad-old-days.

Hill is an experienced manager - I'm sure he'll work out what went wrong yesterday and what needs to be sorted out before Oxford and Sunderland. Hopefully, by the Sunderland game we'll be looking somewhat competitive.

What I'd like is some news about when our strikers will be fit.
Having been yesterday there is zero chance this is sorted in a week. I’d say we are 5 or 6 weeks behind teams fitness wise.
I was there too. I meant in terms of how we approach games. Hill isn't stupid - he'll know what needs tweaking.
In the very short term we need to setup to keep the score down. Get Lowe in. Leave out Politic and Verlinden who both abandoned their full backs. Be workmanlike. We are going to lose but things will get very old if we ship 4 plus goals a game.
Verlinden scored a cracker - why would we leave him out when he's clearly got talent? You don't leave him out - you talk to him in training and get him to do his duties.

Sounds like you already want to take us back to the dark days of PP :shock:

It's possible to find the balance between attack and defence. You don't have to forsake all your attacking talent, grind out results (lose anyway) and bore the fans to death. Hopefully, Hill will find it.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:36 pm

Jugs wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:19 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:38 pm
Jugs wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:01 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:01 am
Jugs wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:03 am
... And if we sit back and get battered 5-0 anyway, fans will have a moan then as well and say it's back to the bad-old-days.

Hill is an experienced manager - I'm sure he'll work out what went wrong yesterday and what needs to be sorted out before Oxford and Sunderland. Hopefully, by the Sunderland game we'll be looking somewhat competitive.

What I'd like is some news about when our strikers will be fit.
Having been yesterday there is zero chance this is sorted in a week. I’d say we are 5 or 6 weeks behind teams fitness wise.
I was there too. I meant in terms of how we approach games. Hill isn't stupid - he'll know what needs tweaking.
In the very short term we need to setup to keep the score down. Get Lowe in. Leave out Politic and Verlinden who both abandoned their full backs. Be workmanlike. We are going to lose but things will get very old if we ship 4 plus goals a game.
Verlinden scored a cracker - why would we leave him out when he's clearly got talent? You don't leave him out - you talk to him in training and get him to do his duties.

Sounds like you already want to take us back to the dark days of PP :shock:

It's possible to find the balance between attack and defence. You don't have to forsake all your attacking talent, grind out results (lose anyway) and bore the fans to death. Hopefully, Hill will find it.
He scored a good goal but spent the rest of the game leaving his full back to mark two men.

I’m not talking long term. But you don’t want to keep getting thumped in the short term. We need a team capable of stopping that happening in the short term. If we lose, lose 2 nil not 5.

Everyone is going to be patient. Or most will, I noted some quite angry fans yesterday storming off midway through the second half shouting abuse. But patience will be given in general. But not if we simply rock up and let teams walk through us because we aren’t setup to at least resist. Being realistic our best chance immediately is being hard to break down and finding some shape. Leaving three up top is fine in the long run if we have the quality to do so. But right now it’s running before you can walk. The mood will not be good if we ship 4 or 5 in next two. I fully expect us to lose both but let’s at least make it a bit harder for the opposition. Even with what we’ve got and our fitness levels we can definitely do that.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by Jugs » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:10 pm

Yeah, but as I said, Hill will see what you and I have seen and I'm sure he'll work with Verlinden in the week to get him to defend better.

Hill wasn't my choice but he's got enough experience to spot the failings and perhaps realise his approach was too naive from the start yesterday. Let's see and hope.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:56 pm

Fascinating game. Odd game. Been too busy to say much (and may not get time to say all I want now) but will try.

Set up was an attacking 4-3-3, much more so than Parky ever did. But that left the full-backs exposed, which played directly into Rotherham's hands (or rather their wingers' feet) as our full-backs understandably looked bang out of practice. Under Parky, when defending we had a back six - the defenders covering the width of the box and the wingers dropping back; teams would then pick us apart centrally where the gaps were (six defenders plus one striker leaving three to cover the midfield acres). Yesterday, the gaps were wide. There will always be gaps unless and until teams get very good at shuttling across. We weren't. That will have to change.

Going through the team:

MATTHEWS can't be faulted for many if any of the goals, however and whether you count the stats. I understand why some might prefer Alnwick and I'm not that bothered either way, but Alnwick - although back on the bench yesterday - has been absent for a reason.

EMMANUEL looks dangerous going forward but also dangerous at the back - for us. After losing the lead Hill switched him from right-back to right-wing, and although he later switched back again, that might be an option, with either Lowe or Brockbank RB.

HOBBS still looks rusty. Some are now saying he was never any good. It's a worry.

WRIGHT - although I didn't notice at the time in the general malaise, watching the highlights makes me think Wright was to blame for the majority of goals. Didn't look commanding or organised at all. Did look very pissed off with someone (Hobbs?) for one of the first-half goals. We need him to be much much better. Hopefully it will come.

CHICKSEN - like Emmanuel it's asking a lot for someone to come in and be an attacking full-back when rusty. Haven't had chance to research his history but The Legendary Flanners says he was released by Bradford when they went down. Pleasingly two-footed. Needs to settle but he didn't terrify me. Certainly the more promising of the two full-backs, I'd say, but let's see.

BRIDCUTT - our man of the match. Sitting at the base of midfield, always showing for the ball, always looking for options to pass to, always geeing up his team-mates, and toward the end putting in a couple of tasty tackles. Might need help at the base of midfield but he gave me hope.

MURPHY - tried a bit early on but I still don't get what he is.

WEIR - sacrificed mid-first half when Hill had to change the line-up. I fear a midfield of Murphy + Weir may be invisible.

POLITIC - did his usual. which is to say a few threatening runs and an utterly pointless effort from the centre circle. Promising and I like the lad. Switched up top at one point but looked lost. Occasionally wandered around and linked with Verlinden. Not sure whether this was positional indiscipline or a curious "free role". Not sure he knew either.

VERLINDEN - to quote the great Tony Coffey of Normid Nomad on Reevesy scoring in the first minute of his debut, "I thought we'd signed Pele." Too few moments after that. Seemed not to understand the concept of offside, which is curious for a winger. But a threat, a definite threat.

CRAWFORD - mixed bag. Started up top, and he's tiny, but he busied about and there was a sense that the centre-=backs were less comfortable with that than they would be a 6ft 0in quasi-striker. Later dropped into midfield where he seemed to want to get on the ball but it was all too chaotic and too we're-getting-hammered. As Flanners suggested, think of him as a lower-budget Claus Jensen - capable of brilliance but also disappearance.

Subs - LOWE was notably dropped, then just as notably called upon for help. Parky used him as a defensive midfielder but as a right-back he actually bombed forward quite well. Still wonder whether we might be better with him as one of the midfield three; Bridcutt needs players to 1-2 with and Lowe, while no Pirlo, is usually safe to receive and give back.

DARCY came on for Murphy for the last half-hour, playing wide; Emmanuel dropped back to RB and Lowe switched to midfield, with Crawford in front of him. That's the trio I'd start with, injuries notwithstanding; Lowe could offer some cover to Emmanuel and Bridcutt (left-footed) the same for Chicksen. (By the way, none of this has been about Darcy because the poor lad had no chance to do anything: Rotherham immediately scored six and declared via several substitutions. It may be notable that Hill didn't use a third substitute - his options of Boon, Brown, Senior and Zouma might have been more scarred than improved by the experience.)

At the end, Hill gathered his team together in the centre-circle then took them over to applaud the fans (along with staff and some non-playing folk like Chris O'Grady). The fans applauded back, as we do, but the second half was noticeably quieter than at Gillingham or Wycombe, the other two games I've attended. There was no anger expressed at Hill or the players (beyond the odd murmur), but the wasn't the unquestioning, chest-thumping, moist-eyed support of late. The next two games are crucial. In front of the home crowd - traditionally grumpier than the away fans - they have to show willing but also wit. Obviously I hope it works. This season's far from over, but it could quickly start to feel like a long haul.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:15 am

Good write up DSB. Also my feeling. People expected us to lose but not quite like that.

Another thing to note that first half the midfield pressed far too high. That might be the plan in the long run but that was suicide. Often Bridcutt, Weir and Murphy were beaten by one pass to leave Rotherham running directly at our back four.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:12 am

Also, I’m absolutely giving Hill 18 months regardless but his post match comments have somewhat scared me. He’s talking a bit like Coyle did. What we don’t need now is a project. Or a philosophy. What we need is to find a way to be competitive in games ASAP. Restore some pride. Get us looking forward to a game again where we might realistically, lose win or draw. We’ve begged and borrowed a squad this isn’t about a long term build or philosophy. We need to have pragmatism. The kids showed against Coventry there are ways of grinding out results even when you are limited in many ways. We need that sort of organisation and fighting spirit now. Not being told that 6-1 defeats are wins so long as we try and play the right way...

Hill is experienced and knows what he’s doing but less about philosophy and more about a short term approach to getting up to speed is what I’m looking for. The fancy stuff can wait till we have a base on which to build.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by Bertie Wooster » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:22 am

He comes across like an absolute fruitcake in that post match interview.

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by Bruce Rioja » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:34 am

Busy weekend and whatnot, this is the first time I've had a chance to see the goals. Our defending is little short of frightening. A lack of ability I can put up with, it's the lack of desire to win the ball / close down that I struggle with :shock:

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Re: Will Hill thrill us at the Millers? Rotherham (A) Sat 14 Sep, 3pm

Post by jmjhb » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:02 am

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:22 am
He comes across like an absolute fruitcake in that post match interview.
Rochdale fans did say he had a particularly odd style in interviews, better get used to it.

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