Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Harry Genshaw » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:09 am

What's Hill said about Weir?

Weir seemed to me to be doing fine last night and it was a shock to see him hauled off so early. I can only imagine Hill had given him specific instructions which he didn't think Weir was following.
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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:16 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:09 am
What's Hill said about Weir?

Weir seemed to me to be doing fine last night and it was a shock to see him hauled off so early. I can only imagine Hill had given him specific instructions which he didn't think Weir was following.
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... ee-injury/
“These games are important to me,” he said. “My little boy is here and it’s important to him, it’s important to my wife, it’s my livelihood. You are representing me out on that pitch.

“If your performance isn’t good enough 10 minutes in or 20 minutes in, or even if you come on as a sub, you’ll be sub-subbed. It’s as simple as that.

“I can’t stand there smiling on the side of the pitch watching people make mistake after mistake and accepting it. There are certain standards that have to be set and that’s why I make those decisions.”

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Jugs » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:28 am

I actually like the way Hill is going about it. If Weir wasn't listening to him, he needs reprimanding for it. If he listens, he'll be back in the team. No messing around. It's hardly a Granit Xhaka situation.

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:22 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:29 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:28 am
Mar wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:41 pm
Quite like the idea of the lower league cup. Hate the idea that the U21's were introduced into the competition though.

How demoralizing for fans to know that their first team is worse than some premier league sides U21 team.

Play the youth team. Let the lads have a run in the team.
Our first team will be worse than some premiership U18 sides....

Just the way it is now. Huge, huge gap between league one and champiosnhip - let alone premiership!
Rubbish. We'd flatten any U18s. The gap between Prem and L1 is not as big as the gap between 17 and 28. Think one or two of our own kids would support that.

Of the 16 Prem U21 (apparently here, rather than the U23 for their own leagues) only 6 are on track to qualify for the next round.
This intrigued me, so in typical style I checked out how far The Kids got in previous comps.

In each of the last three season, 16 academy sides have joined we plebs of the lower orders, one in each group. Never have as many as half of them qualified for the knockouts: seven in 2016/17, just four in 2017/18, six last season. This season, it'll be somewhere between three and nine - probably eight, I'd say.

Of the 17 teams who reached the knockouts, eight were knocked out immediately in the last 32, then another six in the last 16. The three exceptions were Swansea, who reached the quarters in 2016/17, Chelsea (2018 semi-finalists) and City (last year's QF). But it's certainly not true – not that anyone claimed it was, exactly - that gilded youth always triumphs.

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:27 pm

Jugs wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:28 am
I actually like the way Hill is going about it. If Weir wasn't listening to him, he needs reprimanding for it. If he listens, he'll be back in the team. No messing around. It's hardly a Granit Xhaka situation.
I don't mind straight talking and, as noted re Zouma, a public bollocking isn't a death sentence. I have a feeling, based on his style and previous reports, that he may get more gobshitey when he is confronted/questioned. I imagine someone asked "Subbed before half-time - what's that about?" and he got agressive-defensive with his whole "tears in the eyes of the children"/ "upsetting the audience, some of whom are pensioners" schtick.

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Prufrock » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:48 pm

I think that's almost always if not always better done behind closed doors.

And it's pretty stinging/personal stuff. Not just "he wasn't playing well". Cannot see what is to be gained by doing it in public, and plenty to lose.

He's a weird guy.
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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by irie Cee Bee » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:57 pm

Maybe the closed door stuff isn't working with Weir so....

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by nicholaldo » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:35 pm

irie Cee Bee wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:57 pm
Maybe the closed door stuff isn't working with Weir so....

If it isn't then I doubt publicly criticising him will improve the situation. However, there's an assumption that Weir's at fault here, either for not putting the necessary effort in or not listening to instructions. What's more probable to me is that it isn't either of those things but instead simply that he isn't good enough. That's no great crime, every one of us has limits to our ability and no one deserves to be publicly harangued by their manager just because they aren't capable of hitting the standards required.

Regardless, I think it's a mistake to interpret Hill's comments as man management rather than, as noted above, them merely being reflective of an ugly aspect of his character.

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:41 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:35 pm
irie Cee Bee wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:57 pm
Maybe the closed door stuff isn't working with Weir so....

If it isn't then I doubt publicly criticising him will improve the situation. However, there's an assumption that Weir's at fault here, either for not putting the necessary effort in or not listening to instructions. What's more probable to me is that it isn't either of those things but instead simply that he isn't good enough. That's no great crime, every one of us has limits to our ability and no one deserves to be publicly harangued by their manager just because they aren't capable of hitting the standards required.

Regardless, I think it's a mistake to interpret Hill's comments as man management rather than, as noted above, them merely being reflective of an ugly aspect of his character.
And I suspect that with Weir - its that he's not played much football in his career and thus is learning as he goes somewhat. He played well with the kids pre Hill and I do worry that Hill's pressing game is meaning that Weir and Graham and players perhaps not with those natural engines will struggle to adapt.

I don't like singling out individual players by managers. Always seems unnecessary and unhelpful. He could have said "it wasn't working so we changed it". Everyone knows what he means but it doesn't need spelling out like he did.

Based on nothing concrete or anything other than watching and listening to him I just get the impression that Hill might have a bit of a "bullying" side to his character especially when he's frustrated or upset as he clearly was post match yesterday with the Crawford injury. I might be way off base but sometimes you can just see him "tick" in interviews and then pull himself back from saying something. Might be wrong, just the impression I get.

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Bruce Rioja » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:06 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:50 am
Was Weir really that bad last night for those who went?
Absolutely not, no. I thought he was being called off because it must've been pre-agreed to give him 30 minutes.

To embarrass the lad publicly and to then go on to call him out in the press is absolutely shite man-management by Hill.

I've just read what he had to say - nobody gives a flying feck as to whether your wife, your kid or your deceased relatives were there. Piss poor, Mr Hill.
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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:10 pm

The only mitigation for it really is the fact he was properly cheesed off at the bad luck with the injury, and the interview was probably conducted within an hour of it happening. I don’t think it’s right though; I’m not convinced he should even have subbed him.

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Prufrock » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:18 pm

It must have been a particular thing he wasn't doing but I'm sure he hadn't decided just to not bother. Worth remembering that though he's 24 he's only played 14 senior games and as BWFCi says most likely just isn't good enough to do what Hill wants.

It's also possible Hill hadn't explained it properly. I remember turning up to a school game once where we only had 10. We basically still played 442 except I was both right wing and right back. Got bollocked by the teacher at half time for not do whatever it was he wanted me to do to deal with that and remember standing there doing an intent/ concentrating face thinking "I haven't got a f*cking Scooby Doo what you want from me here"!
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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Jugs » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:05 pm

It's also possible that Hill had drilled into Weir what he expected from him, and Weir just ignored it. The ball is in Weir's court at the moment for me. If he wasn't listening to his boss, he'll have to start doing so. Mourinho's been just as brutal (if not more so) with his players in the past and, eventually, the ones who were left were willing to run through brick walls for him. You don't get that kind of devotion from a group of players if you're a bully. The one's that weren't willing got chucked. Simple.

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by nicholaldo » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:32 pm

Jugs wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:05 pm
It's also possible that Hill had drilled into Weir what he expected from him, and Weir just ignored it. The ball is in Weir's court at the moment for me. If he wasn't listening to his boss, he'll have to start doing so. Mourinho's been just as brutal (if not more so) with his players in the past and, eventually, the ones who were left were willing to run through brick walls for him. You don't get that kind of devotion from a group of players if you're a bully. The one's that weren't willing got chucked. Simple.

It's not likely though, is it?

And irrespective of whether Hill, Mourinho or anyone else is a bully, they do inspire that kind of devotion. Mostly because they know who to target and who to keep on side, and thus manipulate people accordingly.

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by malcd1 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:01 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:32 pm
Jugs wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:05 pm
It's also possible that Hill had drilled into Weir what he expected from him, and Weir just ignored it. The ball is in Weir's court at the moment for me. If he wasn't listening to his boss, he'll have to start doing so. Mourinho's been just as brutal (if not more so) with his players in the past and, eventually, the ones who were left were willing to run through brick walls for him. You don't get that kind of devotion from a group of players if you're a bully. The one's that weren't willing got chucked. Simple.

It's not likely though, is it?

And irrespective of whether Hill, Mourinho or anyone else is a bully, they do inspire that kind of devotion. Mostly because they know who to target and who to keep on side, and thus manipulate people accordingly.

Everyone is different. Some people respond better to a kick up the arse. Others to an arm round the shoulder. Perhaps Hill thinks some players might respond better to a public dressing down. Certainly wouldn't be my style but none of us know Weir so we have no idea of his personality.
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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Jugs » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:03 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:32 pm
Jugs wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:05 pm
It's also possible that Hill had drilled into Weir what he expected from him, and Weir just ignored it. The ball is in Weir's court at the moment for me. If he wasn't listening to his boss, he'll have to start doing so. Mourinho's been just as brutal (if not more so) with his players in the past and, eventually, the ones who were left were willing to run through brick walls for him. You don't get that kind of devotion from a group of players if you're a bully. The one's that weren't willing got chucked. Simple.

It's not likely though, is it?

And irrespective of whether Hill, Mourinho or anyone else is a bully, they do inspire that kind of devotion. Mostly because they know who to target and who to keep on side, and thus manipulate people accordingly.
After a great victory, do you really think he'd be so scathing if the reason was other, though? If he'd simply had an off colour game, would he really get subbed like that and then laid into? The way I see it is, Weir hasn't listened to orders (repeatedly), has been hooked and has now been made accountable. We move on and Weir either listens (and I suspect he will) or is scrapped.

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by nicholaldo » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:43 pm

Jugs wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:03 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:32 pm
Jugs wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:05 pm
It's also possible that Hill had drilled into Weir what he expected from him, and Weir just ignored it. The ball is in Weir's court at the moment for me. If he wasn't listening to his boss, he'll have to start doing so. Mourinho's been just as brutal (if not more so) with his players in the past and, eventually, the ones who were left were willing to run through brick walls for him. You don't get that kind of devotion from a group of players if you're a bully. The one's that weren't willing got chucked. Simple.

It's not likely though, is it?

And irrespective of whether Hill, Mourinho or anyone else is a bully, they do inspire that kind of devotion. Mostly because they know who to target and who to keep on side, and thus manipulate people accordingly.
After a great victory, do you really think he'd be so scathing if the reason was other, though? If he'd simply had an off colour game, would he really get subbed like that and then laid into? The way I see it is, Weir hasn't listened to orders (repeatedly), has been hooked and has now been made accountable. We move on and Weir either listens (and I suspect he will) or is scrapped.

None of us can know, but I think the chances of Hill explaining exactly what he wants in detail and Weir simply ignoring him are extraordinarily slim. Why would he?

The more likely scenario, in my opinion, is that Hill doesn't fancy Weir as a player and is frustrated because the registration embargo restricts us to a small squad of players, so he's practically been forced into using a player who either isn't good enough full stop or isn't good enough to do what he's asking him to do. As a result, he's vented his spleen in public when questioned on it, no doubt in part due to Crawford's injury souring his mood.

And that's my problem with it - I'm not convinced it's a strategic device. If it was calculated public criticism designed to ellicit a response from his player in order to improve him, I might be able to respect it even if I think there would have to be exceptional circumstances to undermine a player in such a way. That would be a form of man management. But it seems pretty clear to me that it wasn't that, it was just a case of a man who can't keep his frustrations to himself losing his temper in a post-match interview. In that respect, I think his overly direct media style could cause problems in the long-term.

No doubt Weir will leave in January and we'll bring in players Hill thinks are capable, and that will be to our benefit. I just think it's a shitty way to carry on if, as I suspect, it's nothing more than a case of a player not being able to do what's asked (or, as others have mentioned, Hill not properly communicating what he needs from him).

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:27 pm

Just interrupting an interesting conversation to note this:
CODE: SELECT ALL Our first back-to-back wins since August 2018, which now feels a lifetime ago. We were (very briefly) top of the second tier...

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:01 pm

A cracking stat; got to be the longest we’ve waited for back to backs in a very long time?

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Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by LeverEnd » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:35 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:16 am
“These games are important to me,” he said. “My little boy is here and it’s important to him, it’s important to my wife, it’s my livelihood. You are representing me out on that pitch.

“If your performance isn’t good enough 10 minutes in or 20 minutes in, or even if you come on as a sub, you’ll be sub-subbed. It’s as simple as that.

“I can’t stand there smiling on the side of the pitch watching people make mistake after mistake and accepting it. There are certain standards that have to be set and that’s why I make those decisions.”
Followed by this...
Hill planned to use the match as a “training session” and had pre-planned to withdraw striker Daryl Murphy at half time to save him for this weekend’s home game against Fleetwood.
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... ssion=true


There's no calculated psychology about any of this, he just really does talk utter shite.
...

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