Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Where fellow sufferers gather to share the pain, longing and unrequited transfer requests that make being a Wanderer what it is...

Moderator: Zulus Thousand of em

Post Reply
BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25933
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:04 am

Now Hill wades in on Zouma...
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... te-harder/

I agree with every word Hill says - inspite of his crowd favourite status I think Zouma is pretty poor - physically very good but his actual defending is poor - reading of the game, positioning - all over the show.

However, given we've no fit centre backs - how is publicly calling him out helping? He's already done this to him once. It just seems needless criticism in public. Have a private chat with him. But going out of your way to criticise players?

Above someone said Mourinho did this - but far as I remember he only criticised players when things were going wrong at Man Utd. When he was successful at Chelsea and Porto he created a bubble where he protected his players publicly regardless.

Given Hill is so critical of relatively young lads trying to build their careers on peanuts I'd hate to think what he'd have said were he our manager a few years earlier with some highly paid players taking the piss....

Jugs
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1948
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:31 pm
Location: On a shelf

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Jugs » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:32 am

^ Mourinho once said of Joe Cole - in public - "One more game like that and he's out." That was when he was winning titles at Chelsea.
It's not the only time he's publicly called out players, especially Cole. And yet Cole now calls him a 'Master Motivator' who gets more juice out of his players:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... vator.html

And yeah, Mourinho did it with Shaw at United, saying "it was Shaw's body out there but my brain." Seemed harsh at the time but a few months later Shaw was playing a blinder and looked a different player. And that criticism didn't come during the bad days either - United won the Europa League that season.

Sometimes, you've gotta hold players accountable. Let's see if Hill's methods work over the long-term rather than getting upset about it atm.

Bruce Rioja
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 35882
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:19 pm
Location: Drifting into the arena of the unwell.

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:36 am

Mourinho made an absolute c*nt of himself by calling out Luke Shaw and making his life a public misery . Course, since the brow-beating tosser was sacked in Dec 18, Shaw was announced as United's player of the month for March – achieving three in total that season. At the end of the season, Shaw was voted Manchester United Players' Player of the Year and Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year.
May the bridges I burn light your way

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25933
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:01 am

Jugs wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:32 am
^ Mourinho once said of Joe Cole - in public - "One more game like that and he's out." That was when he was winning titles at Chelsea.
It's not the only time he's publicly called out players, especially Cole. And yet Cole now calls him a 'Master Motivator' who gets more juice out of his players:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... vator.html

And yeah, Mourinho did it with Shaw at United, saying "it was Shaw's body out there but my brain." Seemed harsh at the time but a few months later Shaw was playing a blinder and looked a different player. And that criticism didn't come during the bad days either - United won the Europa League that season.

Sometimes, you've gotta hold players accountable. Let's see if Hill's methods work over the long-term rather than getting upset about it atm.
And one might argue that those comments in early 2006 - were the beginning of the end for that Mourinho spell at Chelsea...

I think that there is a difference in trying to shape a players attitude and performance and using the media to perhaps explain what you see as "their issues" that constantly hanging them out to dry in the media. Especially in the position we're in.

It doesn't sit well with me. Say things in private - hint at them publicly if you choose, but don't just pick on people needlessly.

Branagan
Hopeful
Hopeful
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:55 am

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Branagan » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:31 am

If nothing else, keep doing it and it'll lose any impact it might have once had.

Jugs
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1948
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:31 pm
Location: On a shelf

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Jugs » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:55 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:36 am
Mourinho made an absolute c*nt of himself by calling out Luke Shaw and making his life a public misery . Course, since the brow-beating tosser was sacked in Dec 18, Shaw was announced as United's player of the month for March – achieving three in total that season. At the end of the season, Shaw was voted Manchester United Players' Player of the Year and Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year.
Shaw also said Mourinho was right to publicly criticise him and even credited him with getting his career back on track. Not that I'd personally condone it, I did think Mourinho's comments were a bit self-centred on that occasion.

Honestly, my opinion is this: Hill is clearly doing things right at the moment because our form has improved, we're not leaking goals and we're playing well. Like his methods or not, something is clicking.
Last edited by Jugs on Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jugs
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1948
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:31 pm
Location: On a shelf

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Jugs » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:58 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:01 am
Jugs wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:32 am
^ Mourinho once said of Joe Cole - in public - "One more game like that and he's out." That was when he was winning titles at Chelsea.
It's not the only time he's publicly called out players, especially Cole. And yet Cole now calls him a 'Master Motivator' who gets more juice out of his players:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... vator.html

And yeah, Mourinho did it with Shaw at United, saying "it was Shaw's body out there but my brain." Seemed harsh at the time but a few months later Shaw was playing a blinder and looked a different player. And that criticism didn't come during the bad days either - United won the Europa League that season.

Sometimes, you've gotta hold players accountable. Let's see if Hill's methods work over the long-term rather than getting upset about it atm.
And one might argue that those comments in early 2006 - were the beginning of the end for that Mourinho spell at Chelsea...

I think that there is a difference in trying to shape a players attitude and performance and using the media to perhaps explain what you see as "their issues" that constantly hanging them out to dry in the media. Especially in the position we're in.

It doesn't sit well with me. Say things in private - hint at them publicly if you choose, but don't just pick on people needlessly.
That's stretching things tbf. They won another title that season and it wasn't until the next season when his relationship with Abramovich went to shit. And that wasn't down to the way he treated his players.

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25933
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:20 pm

Jugs wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:58 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:01 am
Jugs wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:32 am
^ Mourinho once said of Joe Cole - in public - "One more game like that and he's out." That was when he was winning titles at Chelsea.
It's not the only time he's publicly called out players, especially Cole. And yet Cole now calls him a 'Master Motivator' who gets more juice out of his players:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... vator.html

And yeah, Mourinho did it with Shaw at United, saying "it was Shaw's body out there but my brain." Seemed harsh at the time but a few months later Shaw was playing a blinder and looked a different player. And that criticism didn't come during the bad days either - United won the Europa League that season.

Sometimes, you've gotta hold players accountable. Let's see if Hill's methods work over the long-term rather than getting upset about it atm.
And one might argue that those comments in early 2006 - were the beginning of the end for that Mourinho spell at Chelsea...

I think that there is a difference in trying to shape a players attitude and performance and using the media to perhaps explain what you see as "their issues" that constantly hanging them out to dry in the media. Especially in the position we're in.

It doesn't sit well with me. Say things in private - hint at them publicly if you choose, but don't just pick on people needlessly.
That's stretching things tbf. They won another title that season and it wasn't until the next season when his relationship with Abramovich went to shit. And that wasn't down to the way he treated his players.
Maybe but the circumstances were different in that year than his first season for sure.

But regardless digging players out in public usually does not end well.

Hoboh
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 12844
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 8:19 am

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Hoboh » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:29 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:48 pm
I think that's almost always if not always better done behind closed doors.

And it's pretty stinging/personal stuff. Not just "he wasn't playing well". Cannot see what is to be gained by doing it in public, and plenty to lose.

He's a weird guy.
No safe spaces nor hand waving out there eh Pru.

officer_dibble
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by officer_dibble » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:25 pm

Again, Zouma was OK tue
Deffo a couple of times he was out of position / wandering. But for a guy with little first team football he’s doing ok??? I share the concerns of bwfc I regarding his career but I’m not writing him off yet!!

He’s certainly got a different approach to most has Keith.

irie Cee Bee
Reliable
Reliable
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:55 am

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by irie Cee Bee » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:32 pm

And I certainly prefer and look forward to Hill's comments that the mundane ones from our previous manager who continuously stood by the players despite the poor performances on the field. Talk about positive reinforcement being effective.

Again I say, the players are not school children. They all know that the Manager will call them out if they do not do what he wants. To prevent such a scenario, simply do your job.

Harry Genshaw
Legend
Legend
Posts: 7193
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:47 pm
Location: Half dead in Panama

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Harry Genshaw » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:11 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:36 am
At the end of the season, Shaw was voted Manchester United Players' Player of the Year andSir Matt Busby Player of the Year.
Christ. I knew they were poor last year but that's ridiculous!
"Get your feet off the furniture you Oxbridge tw*t. You're not on a feckin punt now you know"

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 17245
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:11 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:36 am
At the end of the season, Shaw was voted Manchester United Players' Player of the Year andSir Matt Busby Player of the Year.
Christ. I knew they were poor last year but that's ridiculous!
I’m just gonna say Tim Ream and leave it there...

Harry Genshaw
Legend
Legend
Posts: 7193
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:47 pm
Location: Half dead in Panama

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Harry Genshaw » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:48 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:11 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:36 am
At the end of the season, Shaw was voted Manchester United Players' Player of the Year andSir Matt Busby Player of the Year.
Christ. I knew they were poor last year but that's ridiculous!
I’m just gonna say Tim Ream and leave it there...
Busby''s been dead nearly 20 years though!
"Get your feet off the furniture you Oxbridge tw*t. You're not on a feckin punt now you know"

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 17245
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:20 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:48 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:11 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:36 am
At the end of the season, Shaw was voted Manchester United Players' Player of the Year andSir Matt Busby Player of the Year.
Christ. I knew they were poor last year but that's ridiculous!
I’m just gonna say Tim Ream and leave it there...
Busby''s been dead nearly 20 years though!
O I geddit.... :oops:

(25 years and counting. We’re all hurtling toward the grave ourselves...)

LeverEnd
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8174
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:18 pm
Location: Dirty Leeds

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by LeverEnd » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:54 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:11 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:36 am
At the end of the season, Shaw was voted Manchester United Players' Player of the Year andSir Matt Busby Player of the Year.
Christ. I knew they were poor last year but that's ridiculous!
I’m just gonna say Tim Ream and leave it there...
A classy, versatile and intelligent footballer who could play out from the back, but didn't go flying into daft tackles or beat his chest so wasn't tough or macho enough to get the terrace plaudits. Fulham's player of the year when they got promoted 18 months ago. Bet Keith would give his right arm to get him in our defence now.
...

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25933
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:19 am

LeverEnd wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:54 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:11 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:36 am
At the end of the season, Shaw was voted Manchester United Players' Player of the Year andSir Matt Busby Player of the Year.
Christ. I knew they were poor last year but that's ridiculous!
I’m just gonna say Tim Ream and leave it there...
A classy, versatile and intelligent footballer who could play out from the back, but didn't go flying into daft tackles or beat his chest so wasn't tough or macho enough to get the terrace plaudits. Fulham's player of the year when they got promoted 18 months ago. Bet Keith would give his right arm to get him in our defence now.
He couldn't defend. As was shown up when Fulham were in the premiership.

Of course he'd get in our team now - he just wasn't a championship or premiership quality centre back. Certainly not in a team that needed to be able to defend.

LeverEnd
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8174
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:18 pm
Location: Dirty Leeds

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by LeverEnd » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:48 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:19 am
LeverEnd wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:54 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:11 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:36 am
At the end of the season, Shaw was voted Manchester United Players' Player of the Year andSir Matt Busby Player of the Year.
Christ. I knew they were poor last year but that's ridiculous!
I’m just gonna say Tim Ream and leave it there...
A classy, versatile and intelligent footballer who could play out from the back, but didn't go flying into daft tackles or beat his chest so wasn't tough or macho enough to get the terrace plaudits. Fulham's player of the year when they got promoted 18 months ago. Bet Keith would give his right arm to get him in our defence now.
He couldn't defend. As was shown up when Fulham were in the premiership.

Of course he'd get in our team now - he just wasn't a championship or premiership quality centre back. Certainly not in a team that needed to be able to defend.
I'm not saying he was the complete player and that he didn't make defensive errors. Premier quality, no.
Player of the year three times in the championship with two clubs though, picked by three Bolton managers and and three Fulham managers. Can't have been that bad at defending.
...

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 17245
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:05 am

While I impatiently await Prufrock's assessment of T:Ream - I know it's gonna be good - I'll just point out that our Murican wasn't helped by the fact that his transfer fee was a substantial slice of what we'd received for Gary Cahill, and dear old Tim was much more substantially less than the player Cahill was. (I still think Arsenal dropped a massive bollock pulling out of the Cahill race: he'd have been the perfect partner for Mertesacker. But that's not our problem, and it's certainly not Gaz's, although his Brasso bill got a lot higher.)

But the decline of teams is often measured in the slumping quality of replacements. Cahill begat Ream, and when Ream went to Fulham in Aug 2015, to quote Iles:
Lennon now wants to reinvest the money quickly and will sign Italian defender Francesco Pisano in the next 24 hours alongside another attacking player.

Wanderers could certainly use a boost following a demoralising 3-0 defeat at Middlesbrough on Saturday. Lennon admitted he made a mistake in switching to a back three at the Riverside but feels the system could work with different personnel.

“Preston drew 0-0 last week and we went with the same formation having watched how it went for them,” he said. "We didn’t do anywhere near as well. There was a lack of communication and understanding about the positions being played and that comes down to me.

“Can I get it right? Of course. If it can work at Anfield, why can’t it work at other grounds? Maybe Josh Vela wasn’t suited to the right-back position, maybe I should have gone with Lawrie? I’ll certainly ask myself that question."
Indeed, he stuck with the back three, and we won one game in the next 22...

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25933
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Can we give the junior citizens the blues? Man City u23s EFL Trophy (H) 29.10.19 KO 7pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:13 am

LeverEnd wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:48 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:19 am
LeverEnd wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:54 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:11 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:36 am
At the end of the season, Shaw was voted Manchester United Players' Player of the Year andSir Matt Busby Player of the Year.
Christ. I knew they were poor last year but that's ridiculous!
I’m just gonna say Tim Ream and leave it there...
A classy, versatile and intelligent footballer who could play out from the back, but didn't go flying into daft tackles or beat his chest so wasn't tough or macho enough to get the terrace plaudits. Fulham's player of the year when they got promoted 18 months ago. Bet Keith would give his right arm to get him in our defence now.
He couldn't defend. As was shown up when Fulham were in the premiership.

Of course he'd get in our team now - he just wasn't a championship or premiership quality centre back. Certainly not in a team that needed to be able to defend.
I'm not saying he was the complete player and that he didn't make defensive errors. Premier quality, no.
Player of the year three times in the championship with two clubs though, picked by three Bolton managers and and three Fulham managers. Can't have been that bad at defending.
DSB probably sums it up well we sold Cahill and got Ream. It was a terrible downgrade. Going from a world class centre half who has gone on to win everything in the game possible at club level to - Tim Ream. I guess it clouds things hugely. But one thing is for sure, Ream was a typical Coyle signing. Completely inappropriate for where we were - and completely out of his depth. But he looked good on the ball every so often....

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests