Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:38 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:50 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:26 pm
I still think we come back to the problem of hiring a manager who can win promotion under embargo - or at least give it a good enough go to retain a following for an embargo-free attempt in 2021/22. Again, I don't know whether Hill is he, but I'm coming to realise it's a big bloody ask. I'm sorry to say that after drowning for two successive seasons we may be water-treading next time - and while it's progress of a sort, that is a difficult sell.

Again I come back to Pompey. Two successive relegations from tier two to four. Then 13th. Then 16th. Then play-off. Then champions. We don't want spend an entire Olympiad down there but I strongly suspect that previous, perhaps somewhat fortuitous single-season bouncebacks under Neal and Parkinson have unreasonably raised expectations.
Christ I can't remember the last one to do that....hmm....hmmm....
I have applauded Parkinson several times for his achievement that season - including in my last line above - but this would be an order of magnitude harder. By League One standards Parkinson had a very strong and certainly very highly-paid squad. Whoever our manager is next season will currently have six players (Brockbank, Edwards, Delaney, Thomason, Politic and Faal) and a real embargo - not one that lets you pay the rest of Premier League contracts while still bending rules and hiring Your Moraises, Your Wabaras, Your Karacans...

Tell you who didn't fancy operating under this embargo - Phil Parkinson... and I for one can't blame him.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:02 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:38 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:50 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:26 pm
I still think we come back to the problem of hiring a manager who can win promotion under embargo - or at least give it a good enough go to retain a following for an embargo-free attempt in 2021/22. Again, I don't know whether Hill is he, but I'm coming to realise it's a big bloody ask. I'm sorry to say that after drowning for two successive seasons we may be water-treading next time - and while it's progress of a sort, that is a difficult sell.

Again I come back to Pompey. Two successive relegations from tier two to four. Then 13th. Then 16th. Then play-off. Then champions. We don't want spend an entire Olympiad down there but I strongly suspect that previous, perhaps somewhat fortuitous single-season bouncebacks under Neal and Parkinson have unreasonably raised expectations.
Christ I can't remember the last one to do that....hmm....hmmm....
I have applauded Parkinson several times for his achievement that season - including in my last line above - but this would be an order of magnitude harder. By League One standards Parkinson had a very strong and certainly very highly-paid squad. Whoever our manager is next season will currently have six players (Brockbank, Edwards, Delaney, Thomason, Politic and Faal) and a real embargo - not one that lets you pay the rest of Premier League contracts while still bending rules and hiring Your Moraises, Your Wabaras, Your Karacans...

Tell you who didn't fancy operating under this embargo - Phil Parkinson... and I for one can't blame him.
Not sure the embargo had much to do with it - he'd had enough and who can blame him.

My point was that we managed to get out of league one in an embargo and contrary to popular belief that squad wasn't packed with quality. Parky made the best of what we had.

League two will need a similar approach sensible recruitment that will still be competitive within that league. Good strong organisation and vision from the management team. I honestly think a good manager will get us back up but it takes a good one because as you say the position is far from straightforward.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:45 pm

There weren't many teams in L1 that season that could point to as many players with Prem experience as we had. We could point to a few and they weren't ancient either. Wheater, Pratley, Vela, Clough, Spearing, Karacan, Taylor, Ameobi...to name a few. That was supplemented with a lot more with a lot of Chumpo experience. That squad should've been good enough to get us back up and was.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:50 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:02 pm
My point was that we managed to get out of league one in an embargo and contrary to popular belief that squad wasn't packed with quality. Parky made the best of what we had.
Hmmm.

Again, I applaud him for what he did, but he had a lot of Championship-bought or even Premier League-bought players. He could call upon Ben Amos, Lawrie Wilson, Dorian Dervite, Dean Moxey, Josh Vela, Jay Spearing, Darren Pratley, Liam Trotter, Mark Davies, Gary Madine and Zach Clough. Yes, some of these names are painful memories now but they'd been signed for good money, many of them when Eddie was still bankrolling Phil's re-promotion dream: Spearing, Davies, Pratley, Amos plus summer 2014 signings Moxey, Trotter and Dervite, all signed on wage-inflating free transfers way before the shitstorm.

Oh and then he was able to hire Howard, Alnwick, Buxton, Wheater, Beevers, Andy Taylor, Chris Taylor, James Henry, Sammy Ameobi, Keshi Anderson and Jamie Proctor. Again, not all those names will ring down the ages but compared to current times it hardly feels restrictive.

One last time, I'm glad he did what he did, and he transformed some players, eg Madine. Not many managers could have done what he did. But IMO even fewer could do it under the far more restrictive conditions three years later. And now they're going to get even tighter.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:06 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:50 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:02 pm
My point was that we managed to get out of league one in an embargo and contrary to popular belief that squad wasn't packed with quality. Parky made the best of what we had.
Hmmm.

Again, I applaud him for what he did, but he had a lot of Championship-bought or even Premier League-bought players. He could call upon Ben Amos, Lawrie Wilson, Dorian Dervite, Dean Moxey, Josh Vela, Jay Spearing, Darren Pratley, Liam Trotter, Mark Davies, Gary Madine and Zach Clough. Yes, some of these names are painful memories now but they'd been signed for good money, many of them when Eddie was still bankrolling Phil's re-promotion dream: Spearing, Davies, Pratley, Amos plus summer 2014 signings Moxey, Trotter and Dervite, all signed on wage-inflating free transfers way before the shitstorm.

Oh and then he was able to hire Howard, Alnwick, Buxton, Wheater, Beevers, Andy Taylor, Chris Taylor, James Henry, Sammy Ameobi, Keshi Anderson and Jamie Proctor. Again, not all those names will ring down the ages but compared to current times it hardly feels restrictive.

One last time, I'm glad he did what he did, and he transformed some players, eg Madine. Not many managers could have done what he did. But IMO even fewer could do it under the far more restrictive conditions three years later. And now they're going to get even tighter.
But the team Hill picked a Donny had more championship experience did it not? Hill signed Daryl Murphy and Bridcutt - for me a calibre above most Parky could have signed in league one...

I’m not saying they are in equivalent positions. But if Parky could get us out of league one in embargo then league two should be more than possible.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by bristol_Wanderer3 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:48 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:26 pm
which is all fair enough, LE, and I certainly hope that we're savvy enough to have those discussions. It is, after all, business.

However, I still think we come back to the problem of hiring a manager who can win promotion under embargo - or at least give it a good enough go to retain a following for an embargo-free attempt in 2021/22. Again, I don't know whether Hill is he, but I'm coming to realise it's a big bloody ask. I'm sorry to say that after drowning for two successive seasons we may be water-treading next time - and while it's progress of a sort, that is a difficult sell.

Again I come back to Pompey. Two successive relegations from tier two to four. Then 13th. Then 16th. Then play-off. Then champions. We don't want spend an entire Olympiad down there but I strongly suspect that previous, perhaps somewhat fortuitous single-season bouncebacks under Neal and Parkinson have unreasonably raised expectations.
My hope at this time is just to see signs of the ship starting to turn around. Right now we are still on decidedly the wrong track, and at only a slightly slower speed.

I think any chance we had of a miracle this season ended when we couldn't maintain the momentum after the three successive league wins in October/November. The squad we currently have signed up for next season, with Hill as manager, suggests we are going to have a battle to stay in the league. Obviously things will change in the summer window, but with the embargo, and an inexperienced DoF and board, and Hillcroft seemingly struggling under the extremely challenging circumstances, it looks difficult.

Still, when we are heading into the Prem in 2025, we will remember these times fondly :)

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:40 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:06 pm
But the team Hill picked a Donny had more championship experience did it not? Hill signed Daryl Murphy and Bridcutt - for me a calibre above most Parky could have signed in league one...
Got the figures to back up that claim? I’m genuinely interested.

If Hill signed better players than Parky “could” - a highly contentious argument given, say, Ameobi - when he had a much higher wage overhead, who does that reflect well on?

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:55 pm

We're not really trying to suggest that Hill has a stronger squad than Parky had, are we? Nowhere near.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by nicholaldo » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:19 pm

I don't know if experience of a higher level of football is itself a particularly good metric, because it seems to me that although it might well prove to be evidence that a player is genuinely too good for the league he's currently playing in, it can also be the case that that experience has been one of failure or dates from a period when that player's ability was the right side of his peak. Often it's about timing, and many of our opponents have shown that it's sometimes better to have players at the beginning of an upward career trajectory than at the beginning of a downward one.

To his credit Hill might possibly have identified a market that Parky hadn't, namely those players who clubs are prepared to release from their contracts in the closing hours of the transfer market having accepted they won't command a transfer fee. Then again, I think it might just be that that market is becoming an increasingly more commonly used one.

One thing I'm certain of is that Parky's squad of players was better than the one we have now, but I could be persuaded by the argument that our best starting eleven in September would've put up a good showing against Parky's best starting eleven in his first season.
Last edited by nicholaldo on Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Hoboh » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:24 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:02 am
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:39 pm
I was just reading on one of the lesser forums, a comparison with the last time we sank to the bottom division.

Phil Neal had taken us over when we were in dire financial straits and despite the early success of a Wembley final, poor signings meant we were relegated the year after. Amongst the hysteria of Savage's winner at Wrexham, it's easy to forget how mediocre we were that season and how bloody lucky we were to nick that last promotion spot. In the end though, sticking with Neal turned our fortunes around and laid the bedrock for what came next.

Whilst my faith in Hill has gone, given the above, perhaps talk of getting shot now is premature?
This. I mean I'm certainly not going to be unhappy if Hill does go - though I really do not for a minute think he will.

But when you look at the realistic replacements its basically a case of "ip dip do" to quote Hill himself. A random parade of failures who might have done it once or twice but then failed. And the usual suggestions of leftfield names who are like taking a lucky dip where 99% of the tickets are duds.

There is no magic "right man" for the job. So any illusions that we just keep sacking till we find a Rioch or a Big Sam need to be gone. We need to go up next season financially its imperative. Its a big ask but we will be very competitive financially in L2 even with restrictions. So its a test of management.
The best manager we could have had in this scenario left us over the summer - I'd hope a few who moaned about Parky are now realising the job he did here in ridiculously difficult circumstances. He wasn't perfect by any stretch but no manager is.
Hill I assume is given time but he really needs to focus on ensuring short term results now and more crucially next season. The long term stuff happens hopefully regardless. But come August all that matters is winning games - however we do it, whoever is in the team. Style doesn't matter. Personnel irrelevant. Young players in or out...pointless. Winning is all that matters - he needs to know this.
Serious question. Parkinson had lost the plot and the team were failing to deliver "in ridiculously difficult circumstances" then so what makes you think he could deliver in even more "ridiculous circumstances" now?

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:10 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:40 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:06 pm
But the team Hill picked a Donny had more championship experience did it not? Hill signed Daryl Murphy and Bridcutt - for me a calibre above most Parky could have signed in league one...
Got the figures to back up that claim? I’m genuinely interested.

If Hill signed better players than Parky “could” - a highly contentious argument given, say, Ameobi - when he had a much higher wage overhead, who does that reflect well on?
I don't mean generally - I just mean that Parky got the best out of a squad that was written off as no hopers - then he competed way above our financial ceiling the next year.

I'd say that getting out of league 2 is an equivalent challenge for Hill....

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:12 am

Hoboh wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:24 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:02 am
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:39 pm
I was just reading on one of the lesser forums, a comparison with the last time we sank to the bottom division.

Phil Neal had taken us over when we were in dire financial straits and despite the early success of a Wembley final, poor signings meant we were relegated the year after. Amongst the hysteria of Savage's winner at Wrexham, it's easy to forget how mediocre we were that season and how bloody lucky we were to nick that last promotion spot. In the end though, sticking with Neal turned our fortunes around and laid the bedrock for what came next.

Whilst my faith in Hill has gone, given the above, perhaps talk of getting shot now is premature?
This. I mean I'm certainly not going to be unhappy if Hill does go - though I really do not for a minute think he will.

But when you look at the realistic replacements its basically a case of "ip dip do" to quote Hill himself. A random parade of failures who might have done it once or twice but then failed. And the usual suggestions of leftfield names who are like taking a lucky dip where 99% of the tickets are duds.

There is no magic "right man" for the job. So any illusions that we just keep sacking till we find a Rioch or a Big Sam need to be gone. We need to go up next season financially its imperative. Its a big ask but we will be very competitive financially in L2 even with restrictions. So its a test of management.
The best manager we could have had in this scenario left us over the summer - I'd hope a few who moaned about Parky are now realising the job he did here in ridiculously difficult circumstances. He wasn't perfect by any stretch but no manager is.
Hill I assume is given time but he really needs to focus on ensuring short term results now and more crucially next season. The long term stuff happens hopefully regardless. But come August all that matters is winning games - however we do it, whoever is in the team. Style doesn't matter. Personnel irrelevant. Young players in or out...pointless. Winning is all that matters - he needs to know this.
Serious question. Parkinson had lost the plot and the team were failing to deliver "in ridiculously difficult circumstances" then so what makes you think he could deliver in even more "ridiculous circumstances" now?
He was trying to keep a club afloat in the championship - a league where we were bottom 2 or 3 resources wise. We actually made a hell of a start last season but things went south with the ownership issues. The point being Parky had overachieved the season before and arguably the season before that. The final season was a mess primarily because Anderson ripped it apart. But Parky won promotion then kept us up. The only manager to improve our league position in the last decade season on season. Let that sink in.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:06 am

I would agree that getting out of L2 next season would be as admirable as keeping us in the Champo. The season after, out of embargo, it wouldn't be nearly as impressive (but still welcome).

And as joyful as that day against Forest was, let's not gild the lily: we enjoyed historical levels of fortune to stay up that season. No team has stayed in that division with 43 points (or fewer) since 1985, when they only played 42 games rather than 46; the year before we survived, Blackburn had gone down on 51. And as much as I wanted Parky to succeed (as a man as well as the manager of my team), I can't get past that abject surrender at Burton the week before, the nadir of a run that got us one point in seven games. Lucky generals and all that but let's not start polishing the statue.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:10 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:06 am
I would agree that getting out of L2 next season would be as admirable as keeping us in the Champo. The season after, out of embargo, it wouldn't be nearly as impressive (but still welcome).

And as joyful as that day against Forest was, let's not gild the lily: we enjoyed historical levels of fortune to stay up that season. No team has stayed in that division with 43 points (or fewer) since 1985, when they only played 42 games rather than 46; the year before we survived, Blackburn had gone down on 51. And as much as I wanted Parky to succeed (as a man as well as the manager of my team), I can't get past that abject surrender at Burton the week before, the nadir of a run that got us one point in seven games. Lucky generals and all that but let's not start polishing the statue.
I would say getting out of league 2 would be the same as Parky promoting us from league one - achievement wise. But lets not start comparing. Managers must be judged on results and achievement. Hill has a hell of a lot to do to come close to Parky and right now I'm doubtful he ever will. But there is always hope.

I think there is a real danger of giving Hill an unprecedented amount of excuses because people don't want to be wrong about Parky - it might be a bit OC all over again.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Bruce Rioja » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:13 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:10 am

I would say getting out of league 2 would be the same as Parky promoting us from league one - achievement wise. But lets not start comparing. Managers must be judged on results and achievement. Hill has a hell of a lot to do to come close to Parky and right now I'm doubtful he ever will. But there is always hope.

I think there is a real danger of giving Hill an unprecedented amount of excuses because people don't want to be wrong about Parky - it might be a bit OC all over again.
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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:16 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:10 am
I think there is a real danger of giving Hill an unprecedented amount of excuses because people don't want to be wrong about Parky - it might be a bit OC all over again.
Interesting point. But some of the same voices are already tuning up. It's never their fault...

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Hoboh » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:20 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:16 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:10 am
I think there is a real danger of giving Hill an unprecedented amount of excuses because people don't want to be wrong about Parky - it might be a bit OC all over again.
Interesting point. But some of the same voices are already tuning up. It's never their fault...
:D Was going to start a Hill out thread but decided not to incase folk label me a radical.
TBH in Hills case I reckon another half dozen games and if there is no real change, not meaning all wins but some steel and purpose then he must go so someone else has the chance to settle and get used to the place/fans/players before a very important season next.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by malcd1 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:01 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:50 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:02 pm
My point was that we managed to get out of league one in an embargo and contrary to popular belief that squad wasn't packed with quality. Parky made the best of what we had.
Hmmm.

Again, I applaud him for what he did, but he had a lot of Championship-bought or even Premier League-bought players. He could call upon Ben Amos, Lawrie Wilson, Dorian Dervite, Dean Moxey, Josh Vela, Jay Spearing, Darren Pratley, Liam Trotter, Mark Davies, Gary Madine and Zach Clough. Yes, some of these names are painful memories now but they'd been signed for good money, many of them when Eddie was still bankrolling Phil's re-promotion dream: Spearing, Davies, Pratley, Amos plus summer 2014 signings Moxey, Trotter and Dervite, all signed on wage-inflating free transfers way before the shitstorm.

Oh and then he was able to hire Howard, Alnwick, Buxton, Wheater, Beevers, Andy Taylor, Chris Taylor, James Henry, Sammy Ameobi, Keshi Anderson and Jamie Proctor. Again, not all those names will ring down the ages but compared to current times it hardly feels restrictive.

One last time, I'm glad he did what he did, and he transformed some players, eg Madine. Not many managers could have done what he did. But IMO even fewer could do it under the far more restrictive conditions three years later. And now they're going to get even tighter.

Don't forget we loaned ALF in the January we got promoted from League 1. Madine and Le Fondre or 36 years old Daryl Murphy and 34 yo Chris O'Grady?
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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by officer_dibble » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:29 pm

Daryl Murphy would score 20+ for most other teams in this league.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:30 pm

malcd1 wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:01 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:50 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:02 pm
My point was that we managed to get out of league one in an embargo and contrary to popular belief that squad wasn't packed with quality. Parky made the best of what we had.
Hmmm.

Again, I applaud him for what he did, but he had a lot of Championship-bought or even Premier League-bought players. He could call upon Ben Amos, Lawrie Wilson, Dorian Dervite, Dean Moxey, Josh Vela, Jay Spearing, Darren Pratley, Liam Trotter, Mark Davies, Gary Madine and Zach Clough. Yes, some of these names are painful memories now but they'd been signed for good money, many of them when Eddie was still bankrolling Phil's re-promotion dream: Spearing, Davies, Pratley, Amos plus summer 2014 signings Moxey, Trotter and Dervite, all signed on wage-inflating free transfers way before the shitstorm.

Oh and then he was able to hire Howard, Alnwick, Buxton, Wheater, Beevers, Andy Taylor, Chris Taylor, James Henry, Sammy Ameobi, Keshi Anderson and Jamie Proctor. Again, not all those names will ring down the ages but compared to current times it hardly feels restrictive.

One last time, I'm glad he did what he did, and he transformed some players, eg Madine. Not many managers could have done what he did. But IMO even fewer could do it under the far more restrictive conditions three years later. And now they're going to get even tighter.

Don't forget we loaned ALF in the January we got promoted from League 1. Madine and Le Fondre or 36 years old Daryl Murphy and 34 yo Chris O'Grady?
Given when he came people said Madine was shockingly bad...and given Murphys record and ability to still score goals...I reckon Parky would have walked over broken glass for Daryl Murphy.

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