Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Enoch » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:35 am

Bang on, Harry.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by officer_dibble » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:51 am

It’s the bad times that make you enjoy the good ones that bit more.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:02 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:39 pm
I was just reading on one of the lesser forums, a comparison with the last time we sank to the bottom division.

Phil Neal had taken us over when we were in dire financial straits and despite the early success of a Wembley final, poor signings meant we were relegated the year after. Amongst the hysteria of Savage's winner at Wrexham, it's easy to forget how mediocre we were that season and how bloody lucky we were to nick that last promotion spot. In the end though, sticking with Neal turned our fortunes around and laid the bedrock for what came next.

Whilst my faith in Hill has gone, given the above, perhaps talk of getting shot now is premature?
This. I mean I'm certainly not going to be unhappy if Hill does go - though I really do not for a minute think he will.

But when you look at the realistic replacements its basically a case of "ip dip do" to quote Hill himself. A random parade of failures who might have done it once or twice but then failed. And the usual suggestions of leftfield names who are like taking a lucky dip where 99% of the tickets are duds.

There is no magic "right man" for the job. So any illusions that we just keep sacking till we find a Rioch or a Big Sam need to be gone. We need to go up next season financially its imperative. Its a big ask but we will be very competitive financially in L2 even with restrictions. So its a test of management.

The best manager we could have had in this scenario left us over the summer - I'd hope a few who moaned about Parky are now realising the job he did here in ridiculously difficult circumstances. He wasn't perfect by any stretch but no manager is.

Hill I assume is given time but he really needs to focus on ensuring short term results now and more crucially next season. The long term stuff happens hopefully regardless. But come August all that matters is winning games - however we do it, whoever is in the team. Style doesn't matter. Personnel irrelevant. Young players in or out...pointless. Winning is all that matters - he needs to know this.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Bruce Rioja » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:04 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:31 pm
I find myself wondering if Flitcroft would be better.
Dear God. I found myself sat six feet away from him when his Bury side payed at Accrington. Absolutely clueless. Had I known in advance, I'd have drawn up cards for a game of 'Flitcroft's Pub Side Manager Bingo'. "Come on lads, you're better than this", "Hit the corners, hit the corners", "You're a yard faster than him, prove it", “Let him know you’re there early on”, “Still 0-0 lads” (Noooo, it clearly isn't), “Play to the whistle”. “Awaaaaaaaaaaaaaay”. House :)
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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:15 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:04 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:31 pm
I find myself wondering if Flitcroft would be better.
Dear God. I found myself sat six feet away from him when his Bury side payed at Accrington. Absolutely clueless. Had I known in advance, I'd have drawn up cards for a game of 'Flitcroft's Pub Side Manager Bingo'. "Come on lads, you're better than this", "Hit the corners, hit the corners", "You're a yard faster than him, prove it", “Let him know you’re there early on”, “Still 0-0 lads” (Noooo, it clearly isn't), “Play to the whistle”. “Awaaaaaaaaaaaaaay”. House :)
Fair enough. And although he took Mansfield to the play-offs, as with Ryan Lowe there were complaints of financial dice-loading.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Bertie Wooster » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:30 am

Both Hill & Flitcroft are basically pub team, old school managers.

His post match interview on Saturday when he says that Wycombe made a tactical change (basically they played someone just in front of the 2 CB's) that we couldn't cope with was quite alarming to me, he basically blamed the players for not adapting to the change in tactics not himself as manager. Surely he could have seen the change & changed our tactics to counter or instructed the players to play differently, I think he said that the players didn't adapt to their tactical change not him.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:52 am

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:30 am
Both Hill & Flitcroft are basically pub team, old school managers.

His post match interview on Saturday when he says that Wycombe made a tactical change (basically they played someone just in front of the 2 CB's) that we couldn't cope with was quite alarming to me, he basically blamed the players for not adapting to the change in tactics not himself as manager. Surely he could have seen the change & changed our tactics to counter or instructed the players to play differently, I think he said that the players didn't adapt to their tactical change not him.
Its not football manager. You don't press a button and go "play direct". The players on the pitch have to do different stuff - fact is they tried but when Wycombe forced us to use width we looked severely lacking in quality in those areas. Once they blocked Politic drifting in from the left into the number 10 role we looked really short of ideas.

And when you look at the team - we had a CM on the right wing. Politic not a natural wide man on the other side and two ageing and slow strikers up front. Our only gameplan beyond Politic drifting in was probably playing a direct long ball style and picking up the 2nd balls. I suspect its the only way we can play but whether our midfield are fit enough for that - I'm not sure.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Bertie Wooster » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:29 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:52 am
Bertie Wooster wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:30 am
Both Hill & Flitcroft are basically pub team, old school managers.

His post match interview on Saturday when he says that Wycombe made a tactical change (basically they played someone just in front of the 2 CB's) that we couldn't cope with was quite alarming to me, he basically blamed the players for not adapting to the change in tactics not himself as manager. Surely he could have seen the change & changed our tactics to counter or instructed the players to play differently, I think he said that the players didn't adapt to their tactical change not him.
Its not football manager. You don't press a button and go "play direct". The players on the pitch have to do different stuff - fact is they tried but when Wycombe forced us to use width we looked severely lacking in quality in those areas. Once they blocked Politic drifting in from the left into the number 10 role we looked really short of ideas.

And when you look at the team - we had a CM on the right wing. Politic not a natural wide man on the other side and two ageing and slow strikers up front. Our only gameplan beyond Politic drifting in was probably playing a direct long ball style and picking up the 2nd balls. I suspect its the only way we can play but whether our midfield are fit enough for that - I'm not sure.
I never said it was - I was referring to Hill's comment about the difference that Wycombe's single simple tactical switch made and his comment that we didn't deal with it, my view is that Hill as manager should be responsible for the tactics, why didn't he change things around to counter it OR if he did then the players didn't listen to him OR are you saying that we can only play one way and that Hill doesn't have a plan B ?

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:48 am

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:29 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:52 am
Bertie Wooster wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:30 am
Both Hill & Flitcroft are basically pub team, old school managers.

His post match interview on Saturday when he says that Wycombe made a tactical change (basically they played someone just in front of the 2 CB's) that we couldn't cope with was quite alarming to me, he basically blamed the players for not adapting to the change in tactics not himself as manager. Surely he could have seen the change & changed our tactics to counter or instructed the players to play differently, I think he said that the players didn't adapt to their tactical change not him.
Its not football manager. You don't press a button and go "play direct". The players on the pitch have to do different stuff - fact is they tried but when Wycombe forced us to use width we looked severely lacking in quality in those areas. Once they blocked Politic drifting in from the left into the number 10 role we looked really short of ideas.

And when you look at the team - we had a CM on the right wing. Politic not a natural wide man on the other side and two ageing and slow strikers up front. Our only gameplan beyond Politic drifting in was probably playing a direct long ball style and picking up the 2nd balls. I suspect its the only way we can play but whether our midfield are fit enough for that - I'm not sure.
I never said it was - I was referring to Hill's comment about the difference that Wycombe's single simple tactical switch made and his comment that we didn't deal with it, my view is that Hill as manager should be responsible for the tactics, why didn't he change things around to counter it OR if he did then the players didn't listen to him OR are you saying that we can only play one way and that Hill doesn't have a plan B ?
It comes down to the players being able to do something different. They tried but weren't good enough. Not sure there is much to do with tactics there really. Not sure there was a magic option to change the game.

I'm not in any way a Hill fan nor do I seek to defend him. But I understood his point we looked good till they blocked that space off then we didn't have the tools to find another way round. We threw DoDoo on to try something different but the result was the same primarily because he wasn't good enough to offer an out ball over the top and the midfield weren't good enough to win the second ball consistently. You can tinker all you like round that - won't change the outcome.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by LeverEnd » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:50 pm

I don't think.the comparisons with Phil Neal really work. His was an ambitious appointment, presumably well planned and thoroughly discussed.
Hill was a panic buy. FV had been severely delayed and needed someone in quick who could cobble a squad together and had some experience. Had they had the summer to plan it probably would've been different. I think it was right to take a punt on him in the circumstances but they need to sit down with Kenyon and Phoenix and decide if he's really our best bet.
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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:26 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:50 pm
I don't think.the comparisons with Phil Neal really work. His was an ambitious appointment, presumably well planned and thoroughly discussed.
Hill was a panic buy. FV had been severely delayed and needed someone in quick who could cobble a squad together and had some experience. Had they had the summer to plan it probably would've been different. I think it was right to take a punt on him in the circumstances but they need to sit down with Kenyon and Phoenix and decide if he's really our best bet.
...which is all fair enough, LE, and I certainly hope that we're savvy enough to have those discussions. It is, after all, business.

However, I still think we come back to the problem of hiring a manager who can win promotion under embargo - or at least give it a good enough go to retain a following for an embargo-free attempt in 2021/22. Again, I don't know whether Hill is he, but I'm coming to realise it's a big bloody ask. I'm sorry to say that after drowning for two successive seasons we may be water-treading next time - and while it's progress of a sort, that is a difficult sell.

Again I come back to Pompey. Two successive relegations from tier two to four. Then 13th. Then 16th. Then play-off. Then champions. We don't want spend an entire Olympiad down there but I strongly suspect that previous, perhaps somewhat fortuitous single-season bouncebacks under Neal and Parkinson have unreasonably raised expectations.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:37 pm

Quite DSB. Job 1 was stay afloat. Job 2 is "stop the slide" for me...So like yourself, I wouldn't find it too beyond the bounds to conceive we might not just pop straight back up to League 1...We hardly romped it last time, we were in 3rd, one point in front of Scunthorpe and Torquay and like you say not under an embargo at the time...

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by irie Cee Bee » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:44 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:30 am
Both Hill & Flitcroft are basically pub team, old school managers.

His post match interview on Saturday when he says that Wycombe made a tactical change (basically they played someone just in front of the 2 CB's) that we couldn't cope with was quite alarming to me, he basically blamed the players for not adapting to the change in tactics not himself as manager. Surely he could have seen the change & changed our tactics to counter or instructed the players to play differently, I think he said that the players didn't adapt to their tactical change not him.
Exactly my sentiments when I read what he said. The Players should adapt !!! This frightens me. The opposing manager spots a problem and fixes it. Our Manager then says that with the new problem, players ..fix it. If he was quoted correctly, then I am afraid he is out of his depth.

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:50 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:26 pm
LeverEnd wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:50 pm
I don't think.the comparisons with Phil Neal really work. His was an ambitious appointment, presumably well planned and thoroughly discussed.
Hill was a panic buy. FV had been severely delayed and needed someone in quick who could cobble a squad together and had some experience. Had they had the summer to plan it probably would've been different. I think it was right to take a punt on him in the circumstances but they need to sit down with Kenyon and Phoenix and decide if he's really our best bet.
...which is all fair enough, LE, and I certainly hope that we're savvy enough to have those discussions. It is, after all, business.

However, I still think we come back to the problem of hiring a manager who can win promotion under embargo - or at least give it a good enough go to retain a following for an embargo-free attempt in 2021/22. Again, I don't know whether Hill is he, but I'm coming to realise it's a big bloody ask. I'm sorry to say that after drowning for two successive seasons we may be water-treading next time - and while it's progress of a sort, that is a difficult sell.

Again I come back to Pompey. Two successive relegations from tier two to four. Then 13th. Then 16th. Then play-off. Then champions. We don't want spend an entire Olympiad down there but I strongly suspect that previous, perhaps somewhat fortuitous single-season bouncebacks under Neal and Parkinson have unreasonably raised expectations.
Christ I can't remember the last one to do that....hmm....hmmm....

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by LeverEnd » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:18 pm

Managers are always a bit of a lottery, but we are a big draw even now and there would be plenty of takers I'm sure.
I don't like Hill, but would be more patient if I thought FV had chosen him after an exhaustive and considered process.
I don't think he'll start next season.
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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by LeverEnd » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:24 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:50 pm

Christ I can't remember the last one to do that....hmm....hmmm....
Don't want to do Parky down but this is a lot different from the embargo fashioned by Anderson and Harvey is some gentleman's club!
...

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:32 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:24 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:50 pm

Christ I can't remember the last one to do that....hmm....hmmm....
Don't want to do Parky down but this is a lot different from the embargo fashioned by Anderson and Harvey is some gentleman's club!
I mean the restrictions were there - we were limited to 23 and at many points one in one out - which hasn't been the case this time. But yes the financial wage levels were higher (the league changed them after our promotion). But Parky managed it at this level and kept us up having spent all summer and into September in an embargo in a league where our embargoed budget was dwarfed by the majority if not everyone.

Not sure some realised quite how good a job he did.

Meanwhile we're now debating whether its even possible to get out of league 2 in an embargo....

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:51 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:32 pm
LeverEnd wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:24 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:50 pm

Christ I can't remember the last one to do that....hmm....hmmm....
Don't want to do Parky down but this is a lot different from the embargo fashioned by Anderson and Harvey is some gentleman's club!
I mean the restrictions were there - we were limited to 23 and at many points one in one out - which hasn't been the case this time. But yes the financial wage levels were higher (the league changed them after our promotion). But Parky managed it at this level and kept us up having spent all summer and into September in an embargo in a league where our embargoed budget was dwarfed by the majority if not everyone.

Not sure some realised quite how good a job he did.

Meanwhile we're now debating whether its even possible to get out of league 2 in an embargo....
I'm not sure that's correct. We spent £13.7m on wages and salaries in 2017 - the year we got promoted back to Champo. I'd like to see something empirical that shows that being dwarfed by the majority. Scunthorpe's bill was £6m

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:59 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:51 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:32 pm
LeverEnd wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:24 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:50 pm

Christ I can't remember the last one to do that....hmm....hmmm....
Don't want to do Parky down but this is a lot different from the embargo fashioned by Anderson and Harvey is some gentleman's club!
I mean the restrictions were there - we were limited to 23 and at many points one in one out - which hasn't been the case this time. But yes the financial wage levels were higher (the league changed them after our promotion). But Parky managed it at this level and kept us up having spent all summer and into September in an embargo in a league where our embargoed budget was dwarfed by the majority if not everyone.

Not sure some realised quite how good a job he did.

Meanwhile we're now debating whether its even possible to get out of league 2 in an embargo....
I'm not sure that's correct. We spent £13.7m on wages and salaries in 2017 - the year we got promoted back to Champo. I'd like to see something empirical that shows that being dwarfed by the majority. Scunthorpe's bill was £6m
I meant in the championship survival year...

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Re: Day after St Valentines day massacre? Bolton v Wycombe Home, Sat 15th Feb. 3-o'clock.

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:01 pm

Ahh my bad...I think you're probably correct although the chances of any Accounts coming out for that year I reckon are pretty slim...

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