A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Where fellow sufferers gather to share the pain, longing and unrequited transfer requests that make being a Wanderer what it is...

Moderator: Zulus Thousand of em

Branagan
Hopeful
Hopeful
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:55 am

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by Branagan » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:26 pm

Agree entirely. If nothing else, I'm crying out for set of players that stay for more than one season - just so I can feel a bond with a Bolton team again.

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 17245
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:13 pm

I don't mind the short-term contracts, especially in embargo. Two words: Ben Amos.

Yes, we need to build and I'd be giving longer contracts to promising youngsters. But when we're shopping at ZeroPoundland I don't want to be tied down.

Branagan
Hopeful
Hopeful
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:55 am

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by Branagan » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:20 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:13 pm
I don't mind the short-term contracts, especially in embargo. Two words: Ben Amos.

Yes, we need to build and I'd be giving longer contracts to promising youngsters. But when we're shopping at ZeroPoundland I don't want to be tied down.
Oh yeah don't get me wrong. I suppose I meant I want people that come in, do well, move us forward and want to re-sign regularly as a result. Yes, I realise now what I've just described is 'a successful football club'.

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 17245
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:27 pm

Branagan wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:20 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:13 pm
I don't mind the short-term contracts, especially in embargo. Two words: Ben Amos.

Yes, we need to build and I'd be giving longer contracts to promising youngsters. But when we're shopping at ZeroPoundland I don't want to be tied down.
Oh yeah don't get me wrong. I suppose I meant I want people that come in, do well, move us forward and want to re-sign regularly as a result. Yes, I realise now what I've just described is 'a successful football club'.
:D Aye, not one that – since promotion a quarter of a decade ago - has won 23 league games out of 122. :? :| :cry:

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25933
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:11 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:13 pm
I don't mind the short-term contracts, especially in embargo. Two words: Ben Amos.

Yes, we need to build and I'd be giving longer contracts to promising youngsters. But when we're shopping at ZeroPoundland I don't want to be tied down.
Its not about committing contracts - more about capturing hearts and minds of both players and fans.

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 17245
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:37 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:11 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:13 pm
I don't mind the short-term contracts, especially in embargo. Two words: Ben Amos.

Yes, we need to build and I'd be giving longer contracts to promising youngsters. But when we're shopping at ZeroPoundland I don't want to be tied down.
Its not about committing contracts - more about capturing hearts and minds of both players and fans.
Eh?

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25933
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:40 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:37 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:11 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:13 pm
I don't mind the short-term contracts, especially in embargo. Two words: Ben Amos.

Yes, we need to build and I'd be giving longer contracts to promising youngsters. But when we're shopping at ZeroPoundland I don't want to be tied down.
Its not about committing contracts - more about capturing hearts and minds of both players and fans.
Eh?
You might be financially up against it or in embargo but I'd like a sense of stability - that in an ideal world this is the team we are building - it needs players to be persuaded. But frankly I don't think any fan right now has a clue what the team will look like early August. My worry is - no fecker else does either.

Are we building up relationships with key players and shaping something everyone can believe in?

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 17245
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:54 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:40 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:37 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:11 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:13 pm
I don't mind the short-term contracts, especially in embargo. Two words: Ben Amos.

Yes, we need to build and I'd be giving longer contracts to promising youngsters. But when we're shopping at ZeroPoundland I don't want to be tied down.
Its not about committing contracts - more about capturing hearts and minds of both players and fans.
Eh?
You might be financially up against it or in embargo but I'd like a sense of stability - that in an ideal world this is the team we are building - it needs players to be persuaded. But frankly I don't think any fan right now has a clue what the team will look like early August. My worry is - no fecker else does either.

Are we building up relationships with key players and shaping something everyone can believe in?
Yeah but you're talking ideal-world, aren't you? A football career is more peripatetic than ever, there's greater competition, and more people switching every summer. Why tie ourselves down to players we're not sure of just to satisfy nebulous concepts like "capturing hearts"?

Stability means security, I get that. But also for players who then have nothing to fight for. Ben Amos, Liam Trotter, Dean Moxey, Dorian Dervite. Yes, perhaps better than where we are now but did they stop us drifting that way?

Put another way, perhaps an easier one as you have hindsight: which of the dozens of players Hillcroft have signed would you like to have seen us give multi-year contracts to? Remember, friend, that you seem to be saying you might want the management duo gone too...

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25933
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:01 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:54 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:40 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:37 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:11 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:13 pm
I don't mind the short-term contracts, especially in embargo. Two words: Ben Amos.

Yes, we need to build and I'd be giving longer contracts to promising youngsters. But when we're shopping at ZeroPoundland I don't want to be tied down.
Its not about committing contracts - more about capturing hearts and minds of both players and fans.
Eh?
You might be financially up against it or in embargo but I'd like a sense of stability - that in an ideal world this is the team we are building - it needs players to be persuaded. But frankly I don't think any fan right now has a clue what the team will look like early August. My worry is - no fecker else does either.

Are we building up relationships with key players and shaping something everyone can believe in?
Yeah but you're talking ideal-world, aren't you? A football career is more peripatetic than ever, there's greater competition, and more people switching every summer. Why tie ourselves down to players we're not sure of just to satisfy nebulous concepts like "capturing hearts"?

Stability means security, I get that. But also for players who then have nothing to fight for. Ben Amos, Liam Trotter, Dean Moxey, Dorian Dervite. Yes, perhaps better than where we are now but did they stop us drifting that way?

Put another way, perhaps an easier one as you have hindsight: which of the dozens of players Hillcroft have signed would you like to have seen us give multi-year contracts to? Remember, friend, that you seem to be saying you might want the management duo gone too...
I'm not arguing for long term contracts. I'm arguing for some serious sense of team building - Hill made it very clear he'd love Bridcutt to stay and for a while that initial team looked together and looked like one IF we could we'd try and continue with. Hill then seemingly threw everything out whilst Bridcutt went elsewhere.

We're now playing people who may not want to be here or Hill may not want here - and there is very little sense of him building an atmosphere behind the scenes that persuades players to stay here - creating something that people want to buy into if offered the chance. It feels like he sees the players currently in the main as disposable.

It just feels like we'll rip it all up and start again NOT JUST because we aren't in a position to offer the right contracts but also because Hill is not trying to look to establish building blocks and build relationships. If Hill was clearly doing those things we'd know that yes, the contract and money situation may intervene - but besides Bridcutt and Verlinden Hill hasn't indicated he wants players to stay nor formed obvious units on the field that look like they might fall into place. It's a concern of mine - based on nothing tangible but we need a team building that has some identity and togetherness. If releasing solid pros like Wright and Chicksen for example on what seems to be a whim - are we ever going to build that, given Hill is NOT going to have an idea recruitment or retention environment to work in?

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 17245
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:54 pm

Maybe it's me, but I'm struggling to see what you think could have been done differently.

I think of all the very many things Hill can be attacked for, the rather nebulous concept of "not trying to look to establish building blocks and build relationships" is way down the list.

I agree Hill was overly keen to get rid of as many players as possible post-Burton, and that this knee-jerk decision (along with an entirely predictable pause before replacements arrived) helped end any lingering hope of survival or at least Having A Good Go At It. But even there, you'd struggle to find anyone who didn't think that changes were needed in January.

Should we have kept Jake Wright, who had been here for three months and missed one of them through injury, for some sort of "stability"? Had we done so, plenty might have wondered if there weren't better players out there.

How many players do you think he should have held on to? How many players do you think he should hold on to this summer, given their contributions to our worst ever start to a calendar year?

I mean really, how much of it DOESN'T deserve to be ripped up and started again? I'm not sure Hill is the man to do the ripping, let alone the restarting, but I sure don't think we need to coast into next season like everything's tickety-boo.

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25933
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:33 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:54 pm
Maybe it's me, but I'm struggling to see what you think could have been done differently.

I think of all the very many things Hill can be attacked for, the rather nebulous concept of "not trying to look to establish building blocks and build relationships" is way down the list.

I agree Hill was overly keen to get rid of as many players as possible post-Burton, and that this knee-jerk decision (along with an entirely predictable pause before replacements arrived) helped end any lingering hope of survival or at least Having A Good Go At It. But even there, you'd struggle to find anyone who didn't think that changes were needed in January.

Should we have kept Jake Wright, who had been here for three months and missed one of them through injury, for some sort of "stability"? Had we done so, plenty might have wondered if there weren't better players out there.

How many players do you think he should have held on to? How many players do you think he should hold on to this summer, given their contributions to our worst ever start to a calendar year?

I mean really, how much of it DOESN'T deserve to be ripped up and started again? I'm not sure Hill is the man to do the ripping, let alone the restarting, but I sure don't think we need to coast into next season like everything's tickety-boo.
My point being that Wright, Chicksen are the sort of players who probably would a) want to stay next year and b) be solid citizens in league two.

And had we kept them and brought a few more of similar type in then we'd be starting to build a team spirit and some sort of shape for next season. By releasing them and bringing in a new lot who don't look very good, and some who clearly won't be here next season all we've done is a) destroy any slight chance this season b) created a revolving door atmosphere.

To me it shows a lack of judgement of not only the immediate situation but also the club's needs. Wright may have not been brilliant but he's done well in league 1 and 2 before and certainly was no worse than the replacements brought in. Chicksen is a better player than Fleming and also would have contributed next season.

If you like you could have partnered Wright/Hobbs or Wright/Edwards and had Emmanuel at RB and Chicksen LB and theoretically said "this is our back 4 next season" and built something with understanding. That would be a platform. Then build from that.

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 17245
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:20 am

Ah right. I can sort of see what you're saying, but equally Chicksen represented little threat going forward and Wright represented little threat while in the treatment room.

I thought Chicksen was solid but we needed more attack from the full-backs and I didn't really mind us rolling the dice - though I'd have preferred to keep him till that was found, rather than simultaneously defenestrating bathwater and baby.

Wright, we'll just have to disagree on - although I note that on Jan 3 you said (about Wheater) "Its living in the past with a has been - arguably a never has been. We're going down and need to build towards next season. Our wage restrictions and general situation mean we need to build a younger, sustainable side that can progress together." To me, trying someone like Kean Bryan seems nearer to that than propping up Jake.

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25933
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:23 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:20 am
Ah right. I can sort of see what you're saying, but equally Chicksen represented little threat going forward and Wright represented little threat while in the treatment room.

I thought Chicksen was solid but we needed more attack from the full-backs and I didn't really mind us rolling the dice - though I'd have preferred to keep him till that was found, rather than simultaneously defenestrating bathwater and baby.

Wright, we'll just have to disagree on - although I note that on Jan 3 you said (about Wheater) "Its living in the past with a has been - arguably a never has been. We're going down and need to build towards next season. Our wage restrictions and general situation mean we need to build a younger, sustainable side that can progress together." To me, trying someone like Kean Bryan seems nearer to that than propping up Jake.
Those arguments are fine - IF the changes resulted in an improved set of results. They didn't. So in my view all it has done is wreck the spirit and leave us feeling like a club that is going to be in flux constantly - not all of this is in Hill's hands but of what is, I'm convinced he's made some significant errors.

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 17245
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:14 am

I agree he's made significant errors. I disagree that trying to upgrade on Jake Wright is anywhere near the worst.

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25933
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:37 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:14 am
I agree he's made significant errors. I disagree that trying to upgrade on Jake Wright is anywhere near the worst.
It isn't the worst - but I said at the time I didn't really get the logic unless we managed to bring in better players who we could also realistically keep next season. And we haven't. Same goes for Chicksen. I'll add a caveat of course that we don't entirely know who made the decisions and what the drivers were. Perhaps for example Hill was promised different replacements that FV eventually could not deliver....

Branagan
Hopeful
Hopeful
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:55 am

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by Branagan » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:38 pm

Ultimately, to progress, we need to become a team that develops youth and sells on until we're big enough to be a buying club. I'd suggest that's the model everyone needs at this level. I suppose until our academy starts producing often then it will be a case of revolving doors and heads above water in the first team.

User avatar
Dave Sutton's barnet
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 17245
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Hanging on in quiet desperation
Contact:

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:43 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:37 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:14 am
I agree he's made significant errors. I disagree that trying to upgrade on Jake Wright is anywhere near the worst.
It isn't the worst - but I said at the time I didn't really get the logic unless we managed to bring in better players who we could also realistically keep next season. And we haven't. Same goes for Chicksen. I'll add a caveat of course that we don't entirely know who made the decisions and what the drivers were. Perhaps for example Hill was promised different replacements that FV eventually could not deliver....
Aye maybe so, but maybe Hill - who strikes me as a dreamer - was confident he could get better, and January was a slow slide to disappointment - whether because he was thwarted from above, as you (plausibly) suggest, or because potential signings weighed the odds and decided maybe not.

For the record, personally I think Earl was better than Wright: faster, taller, more positionally adaptable - and a decent possibility of ending up at our place when his contract expires in summer 2021. But as he's played in the last four games for Ipswich in three different positions, that ship may now have sailed...

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 25933
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:15 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:43 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:37 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:14 am
I agree he's made significant errors. I disagree that trying to upgrade on Jake Wright is anywhere near the worst.
It isn't the worst - but I said at the time I didn't really get the logic unless we managed to bring in better players who we could also realistically keep next season. And we haven't. Same goes for Chicksen. I'll add a caveat of course that we don't entirely know who made the decisions and what the drivers were. Perhaps for example Hill was promised different replacements that FV eventually could not deliver....
Aye maybe so, but maybe Hill - who strikes me as a dreamer - was confident he could get better, and January was a slow slide to disappointment - whether because he was thwarted from above, as you (plausibly) suggest, or because potential signings weighed the odds and decided maybe not.

For the record, personally I think Earl was better than Wright: faster, taller, more positionally adaptable - and a decent possibility of ending up at our place when his contract expires in summer 2021. But as he's played in the last four games for Ipswich in three different positions, that ship may now have sailed...
I liked Earl but again he wasn't playing L2 next season.

Wright has won promotion from L2 and I see him as no worse than what we've subsequently brought in.

officer_dibble
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8540
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: A trip to Micky D's: MK Dons (A), Sat 22 Feb 2020, 3pm

Post by officer_dibble » Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:21 pm

A new management team will have their own ideas in the summer anyway. C’est la vie.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests