Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by nicholaldo » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:55 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
And whilst we've had to contend with issues around signings, injuries and the like KH wasn't saying his squad wasn't good enough pre-Accrington was he?

Yes, he was.

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
The idea that the form is purely down to "circumstances" is nonsense.

I'm not sure anyone's arguing that point, just that it's not as simple as "these are Hill's players and this is Hill's team".

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:10 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
And whilst we've had to contend with issues around signings, injuries and the like KH wasn't saying his squad wasn't good enough pre-Accrington was he?

Yes, he was.

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
The idea that the form is purely down to "circumstances" is nonsense.

I'm not sure anyone's arguing that point, just that it's not as simple as "these are Hill's players and this is Hill's team".
The URL was from January. The Accrington game was November. :conf:

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by nicholaldo » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:14 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:10 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
And whilst we've had to contend with issues around signings, injuries and the like KH wasn't saying his squad wasn't good enough pre-Accrington was he?

Yes, he was.

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
The idea that the form is purely down to "circumstances" is nonsense.

I'm not sure anyone's arguing that point, just that it's not as simple as "these are Hill's players and this is Hill's team".
The URL was from January. The Accrington game was November. :conf:

My mistake, I thought you were referring to the 0-0. But the point stands.

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:22 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:14 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:10 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
And whilst we've had to contend with issues around signings, injuries and the like KH wasn't saying his squad wasn't good enough pre-Accrington was he?

Yes, he was.

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
The idea that the form is purely down to "circumstances" is nonsense.

I'm not sure anyone's arguing that point, just that it's not as simple as "these are Hill's players and this is Hill's team".
The URL was from January. The Accrington game was November. :conf:

My mistake, I thought you were referring to the 0-0. But the point stands.
What point? Lets look at Hill post Fleetwood - saying we can make League One "Nervous". Not questioning his squad. Not saying we lack quality. Everyone had bought in according to Hill....
“If you look for perfection you are never going to achieve it. The lads are showing unbelievable courage, spirit, determination throughout the course of the eight weeks that me and Dave (Flitcroft) have been here,” he said. “They deserve that result today.

“We have gone through a lot of hard work so I am really pleased with the result for the players – all the players – including the ones who have been injured. Everyone has taken 100 per cent to the way we have done things.

“It has been a long journey but it’s still only the start. We have got a lot of work to do.

“We don’t just want this to be the mountain we have climbed, we want to keep climbing and setting new peaks.

“The lads are doing everything amazing and they are being backed by amazing support. The atmosphere is incredible.


“The lads deserve credit for the result but it’s continual hard work. There’s no dropping off.

“It’s a great victory to send us into FA Cup week. Let’s make the rest of League One nervous.”

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by Bertie Wooster » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:32 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
And whilst we've had to contend with issues around signings, injuries and the like KH wasn't saying his squad wasn't good enough pre-Accrington was he?

Yes, he was.

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
The idea that the form is purely down to "circumstances" is nonsense.

I'm not sure anyone's arguing that point, just that it's not as simple as "these are Hill's players and this is Hill's team".
But it is though, Hill knew the score and the conditions that he would be working under when he took the job.

He's signed Emmanuel (ex championship player), Nsiala (ex championship player), Daryl Murphy (ex championship player), Fleming (ex championship player), O'Grady, Bunney, Hamilton & Delaney (all ex Hill players who he apparently rated highly), Dodoo (Scottish premiership player), Kean Bryan (I think that he was another ex Hill player), plus Lowe, L Murphy & Matthews who should all be comfortable in League 1.

Are you saying that all of these players are shit & that Hill is getting the most out of these players - hence Hill not being culpable ? Who did he think that he would be signing when he joined the club under a transfer embargo.

What happened to - Hill has a vision of Bolton’s style. “I like winning, entertaining football,” he says. “Passing, creating goalscoring opportunities. I want the effort of the team, the intelligence of the team. They’ve got to love that ball. This is an unbelievable environment to work in.”

We didn't have a single shot on target on Saturday at against a very poor Wimbledon side, and its now 1 win in 15 games

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by nicholaldo » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:38 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:22 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:14 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:10 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
And whilst we've had to contend with issues around signings, injuries and the like KH wasn't saying his squad wasn't good enough pre-Accrington was he?

Yes, he was.

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
The idea that the form is purely down to "circumstances" is nonsense.

I'm not sure anyone's arguing that point, just that it's not as simple as "these are Hill's players and this is Hill's team".
The URL was from January. The Accrington game was November. :conf:

My mistake, I thought you were referring to the 0-0. But the point stands.
What point? Lets look at Hill post Fleetwood - saying we can make League One "Nervous". Not questioning his squad. Not saying we lack quality. Everyone had bought in according to Hill....
“If you look for perfection you are never going to achieve it. The lads are showing unbelievable courage, spirit, determination throughout the course of the eight weeks that me and Dave (Flitcroft) have been here,” he said. “They deserve that result today.

“We have gone through a lot of hard work so I am really pleased with the result for the players – all the players – including the ones who have been injured. Everyone has taken 100 per cent to the way we have done things.

“It has been a long journey but it’s still only the start. We have got a lot of work to do.

“We don’t just want this to be the mountain we have climbed, we want to keep climbing and setting new peaks.

“The lads are doing everything amazing and they are being backed by amazing support. The atmosphere is incredible.


“The lads deserve credit for the result but it’s continual hard work. There’s no dropping off.

“It’s a great victory to send us into FA Cup week. Let’s make the rest of League One nervous.”

Hill says lots of stupid things. Look at the line-ups we went with from January, which is when results started to nosedive.

Against Burton Albion, we went with a midfield three of Luke Murphy, Weir and Darcy. In itself that's not a good enough midfield for this league, but then Murphy got sent off and the only player we could realistically replace him with was Graham.

Against Rochdale, we started with Edwards and Zouma in the defensive line (Edwards in a defensive midfield role :shock:), with Darcy and Graham ahead of them in central midfield.

Against Lincoln City, we spent a large period playing Darcy as one of the two in midfield just in front of the back four, with Zouma one of the centre-backs and Edwards at left-back.

It's no wonder we weren't picking up results.

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:57 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:38 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:22 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:14 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:10 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
And whilst we've had to contend with issues around signings, injuries and the like KH wasn't saying his squad wasn't good enough pre-Accrington was he?

Yes, he was.

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
The idea that the form is purely down to "circumstances" is nonsense.

I'm not sure anyone's arguing that point, just that it's not as simple as "these are Hill's players and this is Hill's team".
The URL was from January. The Accrington game was November. :conf:

My mistake, I thought you were referring to the 0-0. But the point stands.
What point? Lets look at Hill post Fleetwood - saying we can make League One "Nervous". Not questioning his squad. Not saying we lack quality. Everyone had bought in according to Hill....
“If you look for perfection you are never going to achieve it. The lads are showing unbelievable courage, spirit, determination throughout the course of the eight weeks that me and Dave (Flitcroft) have been here,” he said. “They deserve that result today.

“We have gone through a lot of hard work so I am really pleased with the result for the players – all the players – including the ones who have been injured. Everyone has taken 100 per cent to the way we have done things.

“It has been a long journey but it’s still only the start. We have got a lot of work to do.

“We don’t just want this to be the mountain we have climbed, we want to keep climbing and setting new peaks.

“The lads are doing everything amazing and they are being backed by amazing support. The atmosphere is incredible.


“The lads deserve credit for the result but it’s continual hard work. There’s no dropping off.

“It’s a great victory to send us into FA Cup week. Let’s make the rest of League One nervous.”

Hill says lots of stupid things. Look at the line-ups we went with from January, which is when results started to nosedive.

Against Burton Albion, we went with a midfield three of Luke Murphy, Weir and Darcy. In itself that's not a good enough midfield for this league, but then Murphy got sent off and the only player we could realistically replace him with was Graham.

Against Rochdale, we started with Edwards and Zouma in the defensive line (Edwards in a defensive midfield role :shock:), with Darcy and Graham ahead of them in central midfield.

Against Lincoln City, we spent a large period playing Darcy as one of the two in midfield just in front of the back four, with Zouma one of the centre-backs and Edwards at left-back.

It's no wonder we weren't picking up results.
Like I say there are mitigating factors but not at 2 wins in 20 levels. Nowhere close. Other teams in this league have similar qualities of midfield - perhaps more motivated ones but still.

The slump happened well before January anyway - that is my point. That team Hill said should go and make league one nervous went to Accrington the next week and lost 7-1. And from there with likes of Bridcutt, Daryl Murphy, Jason Lowe - players who would comfortably play in most of the teams in this league - form took a huge nose dive.

Making out this is "Hill's team" as though he's spent a year building a squad is nonsense - but so is not facing the fact that after an initial honeymoon its been a total disaster results wise and Hill is a massive crank who has absolutely lost a fan base and is threatening to derail next season too.

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by dave the minion » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:13 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:32 pm

But it is though, Hill knew the score and the conditions that he would be working under when he took the job.

He's signed Emmanuel (ex championship player), Nsiala (ex championship player), Daryl Murphy (ex championship player), Fleming (ex championship player), O'Grady, Bunney, Hamilton & Delaney (all ex Hill players who he apparently rated highly), Dodoo (Scottish premiership player), Kean Bryan (I think that he was another ex Hill player), plus Lowe, L Murphy & Matthews who should all be comfortable in League 1.

Are you saying that all of these players are shit & that Hill is getting the most out of these players - hence Hill not being culpable ? Who did he think that he would be signing when he joined the club under a transfer embargo.
Sorry, don't get the point you are trying to make here - all the ex Champo players are exactly that - "ex", ie used to be at that level, but aren't any more. All players deteriorate - whether through age, injury or simply not performing to the same level - and when they do they drop down the leagues until they find their level. I think a lot of our current players have found their level - bottom of league 1/league 2.

Why should Lowe/Matthews/L Murphy be comfortable in League 1? Could they not have deteriorated to their current performance levels.

I know Hill's methods and manner is questionable, and to be honest I'm not a great fan of his either, but I don't see an alternative and I'd also argue that if, as you suggest, we have a squad far more capable than bottom of league 1, then even with supposed bad management, they should be good enough to hold their own and make a better fist of things, despite Hill.

To put it simply, if any of our players were any better they sure as hell wouldn't have joined our circus or stayed with us, thats for sure.
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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by Bertie Wooster » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:29 pm

My point is that a better manager would probably have got more out of this squad of players, and that the current squad should have been capable of better results & performances than they have under Hill.

I agree that all players deteriorate at some stage, but surely not the whole squad - and if you agree that Hill's methods & manner is questionable why would you want him here next season, he's not going to be able to sign better quality players in League 2.

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by dave the minion » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:45 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:29 pm
My point is that a better manager would probably have got more out of this squad of players, and that the current squad should have been capable of better results & performances than they have under Hill.

I agree that all players deteriorate at some stage, but surely not the whole squad - and if you agree that Hill's methods & manner is questionable why would you want him here next season, he's not going to be able to sign better quality players in League 2.
I don't disagree. And don't get me wrong, I don't particularly want Hill here next season. The only reason I'm not baying for his blood is that I genuinely can't see what the alternative. Its fine everyone saying he needs to be replaced, but at the current time I don't see a credible alternative who is any of an improvement, willing, affordable and able to take us forward.
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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:46 pm

I'm not sure that anyone's disagreeing that Hill has been pretty poor. It just depends how much you think the team's performance is down to Hill in isolation or them being "a bit shit" or both :-)

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:50 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:46 pm
I'm not sure that anyone's disagreeing that Hill has been pretty poor. It just depends how much you think the team's performance is down to Hill in isolation or them being "a bit shit" or both :-)
Is that not down to Hill?

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:20 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:50 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:46 pm
I'm not sure that anyone's disagreeing that Hill has been pretty poor. It just depends how much you think the team's performance is down to Hill in isolation or them being "a bit shit" or both :-)
Is that not down to Hill?
We had two? senior players on 31st August when he was appointed? He had two days to get warm bodies in, in some numbers from what was left after every other fcuker had picked theirs? With a salary cap...

I'd be less sympathetic if he'd had all summer and no embargo caps...

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:32 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:20 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:50 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:46 pm
I'm not sure that anyone's disagreeing that Hill has been pretty poor. It just depends how much you think the team's performance is down to Hill in isolation or them being "a bit shit" or both :-)
Is that not down to Hill?
We had two? senior players on 31st August when he was appointed? He had two days to get warm bodies in, in some numbers from what was left after every other fcuker had picked theirs? With a salary cap...

I'd be less sympathetic if he'd had all summer and no embargo caps...
The reality is though and lets be brutally honest he brought some players in that other league one clubs would have loved to have had - Bridcutt as an example, Verlinden another - Daryl Murphy.

I have a lot of sympathy IF it started off very very badly but started to pick up. I really would.

But it started off looking very good (minus Rotherham which is understandable) we played a good quality of football even when we didn't win. We looked a good side. Then Accrington. Then....its just been awful. He sacked off some in January (we're told his choice) and replaced them with players who for the most part are significantly worse - at least while here.

It inspires absolutely no confidence in me for next season - his interviews scream of a man who does not enjoy it here and also one incapable of really being able to hold the whole thing together.

Like lets not be silly and pretend he's ever "hand picked" a team. But lets also him lauding Hamilton over us as "proof he knows what he's doing". That'll be Hamilton who after his first couple of games looks like he's still learning to kick straight - its really not a good look. At all.

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:41 pm

Which bit of "I'm not sure that anyone's disagreeing that Hill's been pretty poor" did you miss? :-)

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:04 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:41 pm
Which bit of "I'm not sure that anyone's disagreeing that Hill's been pretty poor" did you miss? :-)
Fair enough. I think the excuses are a little too strong. Yes its tough. It'll be tough next season. But its doable with a good manager who gets the place going. Its going to take that - but I cannot see that man being Hill I also don't have an obvious idea of who it could be either. Which is why I'm not calling for his head. I just think he's done a extremely poor job which might even be tolerated were it not for his "character" which I cannot stomach.

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by nicholaldo » Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:10 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:32 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
And whilst we've had to contend with issues around signings, injuries and the like KH wasn't saying his squad wasn't good enough pre-Accrington was he?

Yes, he was.

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 am
The idea that the form is purely down to "circumstances" is nonsense.

I'm not sure anyone's arguing that point, just that it's not as simple as "these are Hill's players and this is Hill's team".
But it is though, Hill knew the score and the conditions that he would be working under when he took the job.

He's signed Emmanuel (ex championship player), Nsiala (ex championship player), Daryl Murphy (ex championship player), Fleming (ex championship player), O'Grady, Bunney, Hamilton & Delaney (all ex Hill players who he apparently rated highly), Dodoo (Scottish premiership player), Kean Bryan (I think that he was another ex Hill player), plus Lowe, L Murphy & Matthews who should all be comfortable in League 1.

Are you saying that all of these players are shit & that Hill is getting the most out of these players - hence Hill not being culpable ? Who did he think that he would be signing when he joined the club under a transfer embargo.

What happened to - Hill has a vision of Bolton’s style. “I like winning, entertaining football,” he says. “Passing, creating goalscoring opportunities. I want the effort of the team, the intelligence of the team. They’ve got to love that ball. This is an unbelievable environment to work in.”

We didn't have a single shot on target on Saturday at against a very poor Wimbledon side, and its now 1 win in 15 games

No, because, believe it or not, it doesn't have to be a binary choice. There's no contradiction in simultaneously thinking both of the following things:

1. Hill has made a bad job of it and has shown little to demonstrate he's the right man to lead the rebuild
2. The players he's had available to him, as a group, and particularly since the turn of the year, have been either poor or had serious deficiencies in important areas

I posted just after Hill's arrival that we'd signed a good starting eleven but lacked the required depth, meaning that, if nothing else, routine injuries and suspensions would ultimately condemn us to relegation. I stand by that. Bridcutt, Verlinden, Crawford and Lowe are undoubtedly good players but often they've been replaced or interspersed with players who are either distinctly average or not good enough, whether that's through inexperience, a lack of fitness, or a lack of ability. When they haven't been, we've generally picked up results.

As for Hill's most recent signings, I think there's a player in Hamilton but that we aren't getting the best out of him. Bryan, I will concede looks like a player we should be making better use of. I won't pass judgement on Delaney because I haven't watched him play, but Rochdale let him cancel his contract and join us despite it still having eighteen months to run. I can't imagine that kind of thing happens for good reasons.

But my main objection was to your comment that this was Hill's team, as if these are the players he wants us to play. I'd argue that the players we've been signing and playing recently are a. some way short of the quality Hill wants, and b. some way short of the quality he thought he'd be working with. We're still shopping in the bargain basement. That doesn't mean bargains can't be found (he found a couple) but we shouldn't expect very many of them. In fact, it should've been recognised that the January transfer window would be very difficult to operate in given the restrictions imposed by the registration embargo, and we should've re-signed as many of the players who were due to leave us as possible (Weir excepted). If the decision not to was solely Hill's then that's just poor management, but I doubt he let them leave because he desperately wanted the ones we eventually replaced them with.

Do I think the players should've been better managed and better organised? Yes, absolutely

Do I think there's a great unfulfilled potential we haven't got the benefit of? No

Have some of our starting line-ups sometimes been inferior to the opposition? Yes

Would I be disappointed if Hill started next season in charge? Yes

I think that covers it.

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by Hoboh » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:26 pm

Not having a leader on the pitch is a big, big mistake and that IS down to Hill. Maybe he does not want anyone who might tell him he's talking bollocks.

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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by KeyserSoze » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:33 am

As has been described previously that was a bad game of football between two bad teams.

Nice to be back watching though after a long absence. Good to see old faces and new. Mulling the southend trip in a few weeks.
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Re: Don the tin helmets and Plough on regardless, AFCW (A) 7/3/2020 3pm9

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:30 pm

KeyserSoze wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:33 am
Mulling the southend trip in a few weeks.
On the way back from MK Dons, the Mighty Flanners said he'd do that one "If we're gonna go down at it". Which is an interesting idea.

Just had a quick look and unless my abacus has a virus, with 10 games to go and 13 points on the board we can now only get to 43 points. Another loss tonight would make that 40, which is only five points more than AFC Wombles have already. Wombles don't play this midweek - Tranmere do, one of their games in hand, at Blackpool - but depending on how things go, by my reckoning it's possible we might be relegated without playing, next Tuesday, if Tranmere (playing their other game in hand, at Rochdale) complete a good week.

But yes, Southend is possibly where the axe will fall. Perhaps not yet probably, but we'll see.

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