Pragmatism vs Perseverance

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How do you want to see the manager respond to iffy results?

Pragmatism
7
32%
Perseverance
15
68%
 
Total votes: 22

Worthy4England
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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:26 pm

Being given time to build needs to be dependent on progressing. I'm not sure we're seeing much of that.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:30 pm

There are absolutely no signs of progression under Evatt, we see the same shit & same mistakes week after week.

This is BWFC not Barrow.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:14 pm

I don’t even know what we are trying to do. We don’t dominate possession in any meaningful way. We don’t press. We don’t counterpunch. None of the major traits of modern teams are seen in our performances. It’s not even like I can see what we are trying to do but we are failing at it. There is absolutely no sense of how we want to play. I’m not even sure the players know. When Crawley sat back and Brockbank overlapped and we had space we looked good. It’s a theme when teams sit back and afford us space we look a better side. But beyond that I don’t think we have any shape or style or sense of what we are even trying to be.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:28 pm

6 points off the relegation zone.
Any danger of the drop and I would sack him without hesitation. If it were my money.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by LeverEnd » Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:04 pm

Get John Beck's ghost in and let's go for the percentages in the corners. feck it!!


Edit: I've just checked and he's not dead. Apologies to John and his family and he can now be appointed in actual corporeal form.
(I'm a bit pissed)
...

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by officer_dibble » Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:07 pm

If we potted Evatt the shortlist would be grim reading, even without the grim reaper.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:15 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:07 pm
If we potted Evatt the shortlist would be grim reading, even without the grim reaper.
Oh god, mate, don't even go there.

Not just the possibilities but the endless circular arguments that happen every single time.

"Who else then?"
"That's not my job to decide."
"But it's your job to decide when to sack someone?"
"It's not my job, it's my right."
"And it's my right to say you're a knob. So shut up."
"No you shut up. At least I care."

etc and so on for weeks.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:19 pm

For me, it's our inexperience, both on and off the pitch, which is really hurting us.

The recruitment in the summer was just wrong and we're still suffering the consequences of it. To sign so much unproven potential when we had ambitions to win promotion, and were restricted on the number of signings we could register, was a fatal mistake. I think it's more likely that was Phoenix's doing rather than Evatt's, and I'm assuming that's at least one of the reasons he's departed. If that's right, then his dismissal is a very encouraging sign.

I've been underwhelmed by Evatt so far. He hasn't proved to be as pragmatic when circumstances dictate as I hoped he would, and recently we've displayed few of the things his previous success was built on without consciously trying something different either. But I don't yet think he's a lost cause. There are positives. He correctly identified which players he couldn't rely on and has removed them from his starting eleven, and yesterday he seemed finally to accept that we don't currently have the players to play the 3-4-1-2 he appears idelogically attached to.

There's no doubt that this month is absolutely pivotal, both in terms of what happens on the pitch and in the transfer window. I think it's worth reassessing where we are at the end of it.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:05 pm

I highly doubt many if any sides play their way out of this league. I suspect most start from an organised base with a couple of goal scorers in their side and go from there. We can do that. We don’t need to start lumping it and playing percentages, there is a whole lot of in between that and the nonsense we are currently producing. First thing we need is an out. That’s either a target up front or, in our current form getting width far higher up the pitch. Easier out ball, not having to go through a struggling midfield all the time.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by The_Gun » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:42 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:05 pm
I highly doubt many if any sides play their way out of this league. I suspect most start from an organised base with a couple of goal scorers in their side and go from there. We can do that. We don’t need to start lumping it and playing percentages, there is a whole lot of in between that and the nonsense we are currently producing. First thing we need is an out. That’s either a target up front or, in our current form getting width far higher up the pitch. Easier out ball, not having to go through a struggling midfield all the time.
He played his way out of the division below and there’s nothing wrong with aspiring to play out of this one. Yes, it’s not worked out so far, but let’s see what he can do with a transfer window where we know he’s fully in control of recruitment. I hope you’ll hold your hands up and admit you were wrong if Evatt has turned things round by Spring.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:39 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:05 pm
I highly doubt many if any sides play their way out of this league.
Brommers looked at this pre-season.

Pass completion is an imperfect metric (for a start you can complete a million passes without having a shot) but even a professional naysayer must agree that "playing your way out" presumably means passing, and that promotion equals success.

Well, last season, three of the top four teams for pass completion got promoted.

viewtopic.php?p=1091954#p1091954
Screenshot 2020-08-06 at 13.50.06.png
Screenshot 2020-08-06 at 13.50.06.png (51.36 KiB) Viewed 602 times
brommers95 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:00 pm
...during a spate of boredom last week I cobbled together the statistics for pass completion for Leagues 1 and 2 last season and plotted them against PPG. I was expecting to see some correlation between pass completion and PPG for LG1 but less so for LG2 (with its stereotypical image of being a direct, scrappy league). The results surprised me.

League 1 showed little statistical significance with Wycombe and Rotherham being promoted despite having two of the lowest pass completion rates in the league, whilst League 2 showed some definite correlation.

The three automatically promoted teams occupied three of the top four spots for pass completion. Three young, ambitious managers who like to play a progressive, passing brand of football finding success in this league.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by The_Gun » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:18 pm

On a more anecdotal basis than the above, when we have put spells of good passing interplay together, none of our opponents have been able to cope at all. I actually think if we recruit the right players this Jan we’ll make the playoffs.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:08 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:39 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:05 pm
I highly doubt many if any sides play their way out of this league.
Brommers looked at this pre-season.

Pass completion is an imperfect metric (for a start you can complete a million passes without having a shot) but even a professional naysayer must agree that "playing your way out" presumably means passing, and that promotion equals success.

Well, last season, three of the top four teams for pass completion got promoted.

viewtopic.php?p=1091954#p1091954

Screenshot 2020-08-06 at 13.50.06.png
brommers95 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:00 pm
...during a spate of boredom last week I cobbled together the statistics for pass completion for Leagues 1 and 2 last season and plotted them against PPG. I was expecting to see some correlation between pass completion and PPG for LG1 but less so for LG2 (with its stereotypical image of being a direct, scrappy league). The results surprised me.

League 1 showed little statistical significance with Wycombe and Rotherham being promoted despite having two of the lowest pass completion rates in the league, whilst League 2 showed some definite correlation.

The three automatically promoted teams occupied three of the top four spots for pass completion. Three young, ambitious managers who like to play a progressive, passing brand of football finding success in this league.
But read my post - I wasn't saying you needed to play long balls - I said I suspect every side promoted starts from a compact base with some goalscoring options and builds from there. I doubt very many are trying to win matches with centre half overloads and centre backs overlapping wing backs etc....

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:57 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:08 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:39 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:05 pm
I highly doubt many if any sides play their way out of this league.
Brommers looked at this pre-season.

Pass completion is an imperfect metric (for a start you can complete a million passes without having a shot) but even a professional naysayer must agree that "playing your way out" presumably means passing, and that promotion equals success.

Well, last season, three of the top four teams for pass completion got promoted.

viewtopic.php?p=1091954#p1091954

Screenshot 2020-08-06 at 13.50.06.png
brommers95 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:00 pm
...during a spate of boredom last week I cobbled together the statistics for pass completion for Leagues 1 and 2 last season and plotted them against PPG. I was expecting to see some correlation between pass completion and PPG for LG1 but less so for LG2 (with its stereotypical image of being a direct, scrappy league). The results surprised me.

League 1 showed little statistical significance with Wycombe and Rotherham being promoted despite having two of the lowest pass completion rates in the league, whilst League 2 showed some definite correlation.

The three automatically promoted teams occupied three of the top four spots for pass completion. Three young, ambitious managers who like to play a progressive, passing brand of football finding success in this league.
But read my post - I wasn't saying you needed to play long balls - I said I suspect every side promoted starts from a compact base with some goalscoring options and builds from there. I doubt very many are trying to win matches with centre half overloads and centre backs overlapping wing backs etc....
Give over. You said – interestingly, while arguing on another thread that 4-2-3-1 doesn't have to mean lump it - "I highly doubt many if any sides play their way out of this league." Stats show that last season alone, three of the division's four best passing sides went up.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by brommers95 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:45 pm

You can definitely get out of this league playing passing football, though you obviously you have to be consistently competent at it, which we aren't yet. We've seen promising glimpses, enough for me to be of the opinion that sticking with Evatt is the right thing to do for the time being, but we need to see some progress in the second half of the season. Crucial transfer window ahead

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Prufrock » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:48 pm

I'm buoyed by his talk of changing the system and I think we will see a much improved second half of the season if he does, sticks with it and signs the players to suit the 4231.

I've never personally been a huge fan of three at the back but 3-5-2 is certainly a system that other teams have had success with and there is no reason per se that it can't work. A large part of Wolves recent success for example has come playing that way. However (unless you're playing a team also playing 3-5-2) I don't think you can do all three of the following: a) play three at the back, b) play 2 up top, c) press the ball high up the pitch. Wolves, for example are not a high pressing team.

The modern possession + press, transitions, counter-press Klopp, Guardiola style that Evatt clearly wants to play is as much about what you do off the ball as what you do on it and it's c) IMO that has been our biggest downfall.

In modern football, the fullback is your outball, and any plan to press the other team has to involve a way to close them down quickly, otherwise for all the other work you do you'll eventually push them wide, the full back will get his head up and be able to pick a pass, even if that's just a deliberate ball in the channel for someone to chase. What you're hoping to do is press teams so they make a mistake either giving you the ball in a dangerous position or at least aimlessly get rid meaning you get it back easily and can build pressure. And to do that you need to be able to pressure on quickly and cut off out balls.

But playing 3-5-2 it's very difficult to apply pressure to the other side's fullbacks. Who goes? Does Kioso go? In which case if they play with wingers someone further up the pitch is going to be free. Does a midfielder come out? Then you leave yourself undernumbered in midfield. Do Doyle and Delf spend their lives doing shuttle runs out to the side to get popped around back into the centre-halves. In almost any other shape (other than maybe a midfiled diamond which is pretty much 352 anyway), those questions are much easier to answer. It's more obviously 1v1 and that helps with pressing.

So IMO we have spent a lot of time trying to all do 1.5 jobs off the ball, which a) tires the players and b) leads to problems in communication.

I certainly take DSB's point that the overlapping centre-halves can help create overloads, however it's by no means the only way of doing that. A reversion to a 4231 could definitely suit Crawford. As poor as he's been he's been trying to create things with only 2 runners ahead of him, or waiting for an overlap from the one wing-back we have. with one in front and winger either side we could see him being able to play those 15 yard diagonals that get you into the 3 most important areas of the pitch, the second penalty area in front of the real one, and the areas in behind fullbacks inside the box.

One of the other reasons I was against using our blank canvas to paint a 352 (and this isn't hindsight, I said it at the time!) is that you don't really have any options if it goes all Pablo Picasso. You don't play wingers so you obviously aren't going to sign any wingers and almost any other shape requires them.

I feel sure I read an interview with Delph where he said he preferred playing wide or off another striker, and Isgrove played 29 games wide last year for a team that went up. I think those either side of Doyle is definitely good enough to hurt teams in this league (and is what I think he will play). Beyond that we're looking at square pegs. Darcy or Kioso pushed on probs the best options. Politic next year.

This change is shape might also be a reason things have gone quiet on Lee, as you can see Crawford and Darcy being better with the change. My list of priorities would still be (depending on where Gilks is at): LB, winger, striker, second winger).

I think Mascoll will be off if poss. Jones can cover both fullbacks, as can Brocky and Baptiste a lot more comfortably in a back 4, and poss Greenidge at LB. CB will be interesting. Santos and Greenidge together would be possibly fatally entertaining. The advantage of Santos in a 3 seems to have been worked out though. Looks like pick two from...for me. Possibly the end of Taft too given he seems last choice at a long list for 3 spots never mind 2.

Some of the chat has been about whether Doyle can play as a 1 up top, and I understand a lot of the concerns; however there is a big difference playing as the 1 in Parky's system where we didn't look to keep the ball, weren't bothered about keeping it down, didn't press high and so ALF was a 1 watching balls sail over his head, and playing as the central striker in a 3 in a team that presses high and is looking to get to the byeline and cut balls back. I think he'll be fine. He is a lot busier off the ball than I expected, presses and puts himself about. As long as we're not going long that often he'll be reet. Other strikers who play as "lone" strikers and are Doyle's 5'10" or shorter: Sergio Aguero, Jamie Vardy, Alexandre Lacazette, all players playing for managers who subscribe to Evatt's "philosophy". Even further back in time Crystal Palace got promoted to and had a good go at staying in the Premier League with 5'7" almost-Wanderer Andy Johnson playing through the middle on his own (before 3 up top was almost ubiquitous - it was basically just us and Chelsea playing it).

And if we're under the cosh and it won't stick, for 10 mins you swap him with 6'1" Delf.

So, tl;dr - sign a LB, a winger and a striker, and I reckon we'll see marked upturn in the second half of the season.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:39 pm

Interesting, cheers. Well, if we change, I hope you're right, although I'm still not sure you can compare Evatt's philosophy (talked more than walked) of possession with Vardy-led Leicester, who seem to thrive on the counter-attack (and thus do far better away) – not unlike Andy Johnson's Palace, whose main source of goals was penalties. Meanwhile, Arenal and City are playing football at a much higher calibre than we can – although there's nothing wrong with ambition.

And I would still worry that any 4-2-3-1, particularly one which intends to press high, will struggle with full-backs like Brockbank, Baptiste and even Jones. If we get John and keep Yoko, sorry Kioso, then maybe; but I'm also not sure they're best utilised as full-backs rather than wingbacks. And in the middle, any permutation of two from Santos, Greenidge and Baptiste looks potentially terrifying, as you say. If oppos have worked out how to play Santos in a back three, that's not a problem overcome in a back two/four – just made even worse.

Maybe we'll see more 6-3s, but more in our favour. Dunno. At this stage of a January it's so hard to tell. But whatever the formation, we need a lot of changes – and a lot of that is out of Evatt's hands, however trustworthy anybody thinks they are.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:40 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:48 pm
In modern football, the fullback is your outball
Pfft - was no different back in the day. Just that "outball" back in the day was largely punt it over the stands and take a breather!

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:34 pm

Ha I loved playing as a full back, way better than centre half. Push on, stick a cross in, and drift in at the back stick when the balls on the other side.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:53 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:34 pm
Ha I loved playing as a full back, way better than centre half. Push on, stick a cross in, and drift in at the back stick when the balls on the other side.
I enjoyed the pushing on much more than the having to get back.

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