Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Where fellow sufferers gather to share the pain, longing and unrequited transfer requests that make being a Wanderer what it is...

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by officer_dibble » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:25 am

I don’t think you are far wrong for a 4231. The Delf of August - Nov could play as a wide forward IMO, and I would therefore prioritize signing a left back. I think Jones would eventually be highlighted as a weak link out there. But get where you are coming from. The none leaguer might have been ok as LB in a back four but Mascoll isn’t one. Maybe Greenidge or Taft even could do a job there.

Sounds like John is a done deal though so it is all moot...

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by The_Gun » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:45 am

Whether we're playing with traditional full backs, or with Evatt's preferred wing backs, I can't believe anyone could think we don't need an upgrade on the left. Jones is an ok right back, but even on his preferred side doesn't really offer any kind of attacking threat. Mascoll and Gordon showed themselves to be below the required standard, and Brockbank is a right footed centre back.

I've never seen John play, but his pedigree suggests he should be a very good player at this level. If we can get Lee over the line as well then I'd say we would have already significantly improved the squad.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:14 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:45 am
Whether we're playing with traditional full backs, or with Evatt's preferred wing backs, I can't believe anyone could think we don't need an upgrade on the left. Jones is an ok right back, but even on his preferred side doesn't really offer any kind of attacking threat. Mascoll and Gordon showed themselves to be below the required standard, and Brockbank is a right footed centre back.

I've never seen John play, but his pedigree suggests he should be a very good player at this level. If we can get Lee over the line as well then I'd say we would have already significantly improved the squad.
What I'm asking is, how many points will that win? Over improving the midfield (which is a huge weakness) and adding some pace and width further up the pitch?

I doubt it will make a huge difference especially and particularly to my point if we play a back four. Christ Henrik Pedersen did at left back at a far higher level.

I value the full back role but for me its going to be about priorities now. Midfield is weak. We lose many points because of this. We lack attacking width and consequently have no release ball...again for me these are priorities. Jones is consistent and never lets you down. Steady enough for me.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by irie Cee Bee » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:35 pm

We definitely need a left back as nothing we have, including the make shift ones (Jones and Brocky) are at the level we need in that position to achieve the promotion vision of the Manager.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by The_Gun » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:18 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:14 pm
The_Gun wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:45 am
Whether we're playing with traditional full backs, or with Evatt's preferred wing backs, I can't believe anyone could think we don't need an upgrade on the left. Jones is an ok right back, but even on his preferred side doesn't really offer any kind of attacking threat. Mascoll and Gordon showed themselves to be below the required standard, and Brockbank is a right footed centre back.

I've never seen John play, but his pedigree suggests he should be a very good player at this level. If we can get Lee over the line as well then I'd say we would have already significantly improved the squad.
What I'm asking is, how many points will that win? Over improving the midfield (which is a huge weakness) and adding some pace and width further up the pitch?

I doubt it will make a huge difference especially and particularly to my point if we play a back four. Christ Henrik Pedersen did at left back at a far higher level.

I value the full back role but for me its going to be about priorities now. Midfield is weak. We lose many points because of this. We lack attacking width and consequently have no release ball...again for me these are priorities. Jones is consistent and never lets you down. Steady enough for me.
Obviously it’s virtually impossible to quantify that, but I’d hazard that having attacking threats on both sides of the field would make us significantly more dangerous going forwards.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Prufrock » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:54 pm

Yes! And obviously! If we're changing to 4-2-3-1 we need a minimum of one more winger as well, but (since Gilks signed) LB is blindingly the biggest weakness on the pitch and had been for ages. We can only attack down one side ffs!
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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:06 pm

Regularly correct Tweeterer says this:

"“Young premier league goalie” stuff is bang on....
21, but not as inexperienced as our previous between the sticks. Has played Football league before now!
No idea how close it is, tho (if at all).. you’ll have to take someone else’s word for that!"

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:46 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:06 pm
Regularly correct Tweeterer says this:

"“Young premier league goalie” stuff is bang on....
21, but not as inexperienced as our previous between the sticks. Has played Football league before now!
No idea how close it is, tho (if at all).. you’ll have to take someone else’s word for that!"
Same source:

"Relatively public now, but the name Iv heard mentioned is Nathan Bishop.

Played for Southend and got himself a move to Manchester United. That doesn’t happen if you’re not so clever in my opinion.

Another young goalkeeper, yes, but one with some footballing experience at least!

I don’t know if this a active transfer or what. Got told he was a “target” so assume that means we may have a slot available soon."

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by nicholaldo » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:05 pm

I find it quite strange that he moved from a club marooned at the bottom of the third tier (as they were then) to the development squad of a "big six" club at the age of twenty. He won't be playing for their first team any time soon but to sign for them at that age must mean he has ability, and he seems quite highly rated.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:37 am

nicholaldo wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:05 pm
I find it quite strange that he moved from a club marooned at the bottom of the third tier (as they were then) to the development squad of a "big six" club at the age of twenty. He won't be playing for their first team any time soon but to sign for them at that age must mean he has ability, and he seems quite highly rated.
Yep. Clubs do seem to hoover up an astonishing number of young players now, kid-farming because the risks are low and rewards can be high. But as you say, they have to have *something*.

Not that it's been owt but deathly quiet on the transfer front. Didn't Evatt say he'd have "a body in the building" (to use his usual phrase) today?

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:18 pm

I do wonder if FV are evaluating on the basis of what is a fairly safe assumption we won’t get fans back in the building this season, and the potential for a curtailed season. Did we get stung with the loanees last season? Kieron Lee - offer based on football being played rather than a contract for 6 months?

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by The_Gun » Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:21 pm

Perhaps some of these proposed deals are contingent on us first getting bodies out of the building?

Does anyone know where we currently stand in terms of squad spaces?

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:22 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:18 pm
I do wonder if FV are evaluating on the basis of what is a fairly safe assumption we won’t get fans back in the building this season, and the potential for a curtailed season. Did we get stung with the loanees last season? Kieron Lee - offer based on football being played rather than a contract for 6 months?
I suspect they're also evaluating on return on investment - i.e. if I throw some cash at it, will it get us up a division, if not then should we hold onto investment until main transfer window...Evatt pretty much said this when he was talking pre-Christmas about what might be available to him in January...

If I was sat in FV's shoes, I'm not sure I'd throw lots of cash at it, sat in 16th.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:46 pm

I agree with you all :D
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The_Gun wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:21 pm
Perhaps some of these proposed deals are contingent on us first getting bodies out of the building? Does anyone know where we currently stand in terms of squad spaces?
Indeed, and TBH I thought we'd have had more out by now, but maybe the market's in stasis given The Situation – record rate of positive tests in the Prem, EFL tightening up protocols (and thus raising costs), several club officials suggesting a break...I'm not seeing a whole lot of early movement in any division.

In terms of squad spaces, I think the limit excludes anybody 21 or under at season start, but even that's arguable. When does the season start? Fixtures were released 21 Aug, first league game 12 Sep, but the ("English Football") League Cup started on 5 Sep, or does it mean the traditional 30 Jun / 1 Jul changeover? Might sound like splitting hairs but Peter Kioso turned 21 on 15 Aug; if he's included I think make it 24, less Faal (loaned to Barnet till June ie end of his contract) and, for now, Liam Gordon (initial loan was one month but Evatt has talked about it in longer terms). Wasn't the limit 23?
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officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:18 pm
I do wonder if FV are evaluating on the basis of what is a fairly safe assumption we won’t get fans back in the building this season, and the potential for a curtailed season. Did we get stung with the loanees last season? Kieron Lee - offer based on football being played rather than a contract for 6 months?
If they're at all trustworthy financially – not so much in a Ken way as a Garty/Eddie "whoops!" way – they HAVE to be accounting for the strong possibility of little or no gate income this season, and the possibility of a season curtailment. You would expect most contracts offered since say last April will have some liability loss in there - force majeure severance clauses, etc - but football clubs aren't always savvy and agents will be looking for the best deal. In other words, it's highly likely that cautious clubs will be outbid by reckless ones – but isn't that always the case?
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Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:22 pm
I suspect they're also evaluating on return on investment - i.e. if I throw some cash at it, will it get us up a division, if not then should we hold onto investment until main transfer window...Evatt pretty much said this when he was talking pre-Christmas about what might be available to him in January...
This is true, too. Evatt's mood music has changed considerably to the quick fix; paying the wages of (not to pick on him) a thirtysomething injury risk like Kieran Lee is very different to paying the (presumably lower) wages of a Reiss Greenidge who was hired with resale value in mind.

That said, resale value isn't everything: ask Allardyce and the Lancashire Galacticos. A different manager, chairman, owner, benefactor and era, perhaps, but sometimes it has its place. Decisions will have to be made. Again: that's football.
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Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:22 pm
If I was sat in FV's shoes, I'm not sure I'd throw lots of cash at it, sat in 16th.
Not sure why you'd sit in their shoes – you'll get lace-marks on yer arse, lad :D

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:02 pm

Squad limits:

https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/ef ... --players/
43.9 Squad Lists
43.9.1 Clubs shall be permitted to name up to a maximum number of Players in their Squad
List based on the following provisions:
(a) in respect of Championship Clubs, 25 Players of which a minimum of 8 must be a Home Grown Player;
(b) in respect of League One and Two Clubs:
(i) in Season 2020/21, 22 Players of which a minimum of 8 must be a Home Grown Player; and
(ii) in Season 2021/22 and each subsequent Season, 20 Players of which a minimum of 8 must be a Home Grown Player.
The limit set out in Regulation 43.9.1(b)(ii) increases to 22 for any Club relegated into League One, for its first Season following relegation.


43.9.2 The following Players do not need to be included in the Squad List to be eligible to play in League Matches:
(a) in respect of Championship Clubs, any Under 21 Player (save for any Under 21 Player who is registered with the Club on a Temporary Loan Transfer); and
(b) in respect of League One Clubs and League Two Clubs, any Under 21 Players.
Oh and on what "Under 21" means, none of my suggestions were right:
https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/ef ... --general/
‘Under 21 Player’ means a Player under the age of 21 as at the 1 January in the year in which the Season concerned commences (e.g. for Season 2020/21, born on or after 1 January 1999).
So that means Liam Gordon's a kid.

So here's the non-U21 players; as I understand it we've got 21 of them, one under the total (shout if I've missed anyone):
Matt Gilks (4/6/82)
Alex Baptiste (31/1/86)
Shaun Miller (25/9/87)
Eoin Doyle (12/3/88)
Andrew Tutte (21/9/90)
Nathan Delfouneso (2/2/91)
Ali Crawford (30/7/91)
Antoni Sarcevic (13/3/92)
Arthur Gnahoua (18/9/92)
Lloyd Isgrove (12/1/93)
George Taft (29/7/93)
Ricardo Santos (18/6/95)
Gethin Jones (13/10/95)
Brandon Comley (18/11/95)
Reiss Greenidge (10/8/96)
Liam Edwards (2/10/96)
Ryan Delaney (6/9/96)
Jamie Mascoll (15/3/97)
Tom White (9/5/97); season's loan from Blackburn
Mo Faal (1/7/97) – loaned to Barnet for the season and thus not counted for us
Jak Hickman (11/9/98)
Harry Brockbank (26/9/98)

Under-21s:
Liam Gordon (15/5/99)
Peter Kioso (15/8/99); season's loan from Luton
Dennis Politic (5/3/00)
Billy Crellin (13/6/00); season's loan from Fleetwood
Ronan Darcy (4/11/00)
George Thomason (12/1/02)
Adam Senior (20/1/02)
Callum King-Harmes (19/4/02) - on youth loan to Bamber Bridge
Matthew Alexander (7/5/02)
Sonny Graham (10/6/02)

(PS "Home Grown" is about nation not club: "‘Home Grown Player’ shall mean a Player who irrespective of his nationality or age, has been registered with:-
33.9.1 his current Club; and/or
33.9.2 a Club and/or any other football club affiliated to the Football Association or the Football Association of Wales,
for a period, continuous or not of three Seasons or 36 months prior to his 21 birthday (or the end of the Season during which he turns 21).")
Last edited by Dave Sutton's barnet on Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Prufrock » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:08 pm

I was going to ask if the squad size limit was an embargo thing or a general league rule. Given it is the latter, the way I *think* it works is that there is no limit on the number of over 21s you can sign, only who you can register and play, and you can unregister a player to register another in certain windows (at least the transfer windows if not beyond that). It doesn't prevent us signing or registering the newbies as long as we unregister an O-21 for every new one over the 22.

That could pose a problem in the sense we don't want to be paying wages for someone we can't play, but that's a risk we can at least take I think.
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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:14 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:08 pm

I was going to ask if the squad size limit was an embargo thing or a general league rule.
Given it is the latter, the way I *think* it works is that there is no limit on the number of over 21s you can sign, only who you can register and play, and you can unregister a player to register another in certain windows (at least the transfer windows if not beyond that). It doesn't prevent us signing or registering the newbies as long as we unregister an O-21 for every new one over the 22.

That could pose a problem in the sense we don't want to be paying wages for someone we can't play, but that's a risk we can at least take I think.
For clarity, the above is *all* a general league rule, unrelated to embargo, in general panicky FFP style. Embargo rules are infamously not published, giving lassitude for Kens to bend them and leagues to glow slightly red. Also means the above *might* not apply to us, being as we are still within the two-season sound of the financial leper's bell.

Pru, if you can find the confirmation of your above assessment in the rules, you're a more patient man than I. Not saying you're wrong, just saying I'm tired :D
https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/ef ... gulations/

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Prufrock » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:56 pm

:lol: if you wander elsewhere on the board you'll see I'm bored today, but I'm not that bored.

Without wanting reignite the old "this house believes that football manager is a usefull tool in understanding real football" motion, they are usually pretty bob on and getting the rules and regs right, and that's how it works there. Transfer window - you can register and unregister at will. Once the window shut you name your 22 man squad and you're limited to those players (plus U-21s) until the next window. But even if you have 22 registered you can still *sign* another, you just need to unregister someone (in a relevant window) in order to register them.

Maybe tomorrow I'll be even more bored and will have a look at the actual rules :D .
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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:02 pm

Ah yeah. I get that. You can sign who you want but you're limited on how many (and when) you can register.

Note as an aside that the squad limit goes down from 22 to 20 for next season in L1 & L2.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:34 pm

We’ve got some contracts with options to extend haven’t we? 20 players assumes that your squad contains under 21s as cover at least.

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