An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by The_Gun » Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:11 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:26 pm
Not sure I understand the worries about Baptiste. He's been excellent since he came back in. He's miles and fecking miles better than Delaney. A long term partner for Santos would be best the top of my list, but easily worth his place atm
Yeah after Santos and Thomason he was our third best performer today. He had some shit games at the start of the season, but recently he’s been good and would be an automatic starter for me.

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:39 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:36 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:51 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:38 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:53 pm
DJBlu wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:02 pm
7 points from 9.

Clean sheet.

Playing poorly and winning is better than playing well and losing.

Also that's the second game this new lot have played together and they've managed 4 of them points.

I say with optimism onwards and upwards.

Even though it bothers me that we do some of the basics poorly I can't argue with that points return. I suppose it shows the impact signing better quality players has.

I know football isn't played on paper but our upcoming fixtures should give us an opportunity to put a good run of results together.
They weren't in the building for three of the 7 points from the last 9 and dropped us 2 in the second game...their points return son far is -2+3... so that's be 1.

Lee, John and Jackson were.
I didn't have them down as "made the difference" v Orient. John and Jackson are the same position. One came on for t'other. We looked good as a team v Orient, I didn't have any of the three new signings as "standout".

Morcambe, we were 1-0 up again with one of the three on the pitch? Before the other noobs came on and we dropped two points?

I meant in an incrimental sense.

We dropped points on Tuesday night because of a now rescinded sending off and an unsuccessful, high-risk tactical gamble after it.

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:47 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:22 pm
We would have won Tuesday were in not for the referee. Don’t often feel like that but we were on top, had weathered our usual lethargic period after half time, and the subs had given us fresh impetus. At that point I thought we’d go on and do 2-0/2-1. Hate blaming the ref but it cost us then. Got away with it a bit today but we did defend well.

If we can get Afolayan firing consistently (only his first start today!) he looks the business at this level. Not convinced by Maddison at all...I think he looked like he thought he was too good for this level and all he had to do was turn up and he would score and set them up. First half he tried to put it on a plate for Doyle a couple of times. Problem was he was in our half, so it would have taken some ball. The run through them in the second half from our half was great, but if he’s have looked up we had Afolayan in, and ultimately he wasted the chance. He’s not interested once the other team are in our half and I’m not sure we are good enough to carry him yet...but we’re getting plenty of practice playing with ten men so who knows?

I'm not worried yet. I get the impression he wants to succeed, I just think he's trying too hard and forcing it. He could really do with scoring just to settle himself down and stop him becoming despondent.

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by officer_dibble » Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:16 am

I agree and the lads not even played 90 minutes for us yet! IE has his work cut out I think!

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:52 am

I was fairly underwhelmed by signing him,mainly because I'd never heard of him, but then he sounded like trouble and hadn't played well for a while. Also the adulation from our Twitter kids because he's a 'shagger' and a 'lad' and a ' shithouse' irritates me intensely. :roll:
He's a potential asset but I'm more impressed by John and Afolayan.
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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:02 am

Prufrock wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:26 pm
Not sure I understand the worries about Baptiste. He's been excellent since he came back in. He's miles and fecking miles better than Delaney. A long term partner for Santos would be best the top of my list, but easily worth his place atm
Chiefly agree, however, few are capable of stinking the place out quite like him when he has a bad game, and there's absolutely no in-between with the guy. And that stinker of a game is always in the post somewhere.
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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:15 am

LeverEnd wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:52 am
I was fairly underwhelmed by signing him,mainly because I'd never heard of him, but then he sounded like trouble and hadn't played well for a while. Also the adulation from our Twitter kids because he's a 'shagger' and a 'lad' and a ' shithouse' irritates me intensely. :roll:
He's a potential asset but I'm more impressed by John and Afolayan.
MM has not even had 90 mins of football in a BWFC shirt yet, give him a few games and a bit more time to settle in & understand how we play before judging. It must be quite difficult being a creative player the way we play with limited intensity & generally slow build up play.

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:37 am

We have Mansfield, Southend, Scunthorpe and Barrow coming up, in Feb. Three of those are certainly "winnable".. so let's see where we're at by end Feb.

The performance for me yesterday was no better than some I've seen previously this season but I did think some players - Thomason, Santos, John - stood out pretty well.

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:55 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:37 am
We have Mansfield, Southend, Scunthorpe and Barrow coming up, in Feb. Three of those are certainly "winnable".. so let's see where we're at by end Feb.

The performance for me yesterday was no better than some I've seen previously this season but I did think some players - Thomason, Santos, John - stood out pretty well.
All four are winnable. I agree with the performance it wasn’t great. But we won. So hopefully kick on from here. Again we’ve said that a lot this season.

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:07 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:55 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:37 am
We have Mansfield, Southend, Scunthorpe and Barrow coming up, in Feb. Three of those are certainly "winnable".. so let's see where we're at by end Feb.

The performance for me yesterday was no better than some I've seen previously this season but I did think some players - Thomason, Santos, John - stood out pretty well.
All four are winnable. I agree with the performance it wasn’t great. But we won. So hopefully kick on from here. Again we’ve said that a lot this season.
I'll take the points over the performance. :-) We're playing the reverse fixtures of last time we went on a run..

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:31 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:02 am
Prufrock wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:26 pm
Not sure I understand the worries about Baptiste. He's been excellent since he came back in. He's miles and fecking miles better than Delaney. A long term partner for Santos would be best the top of my list, but easily worth his place atm
Chiefly agree, however, few are capable of stinking the place out quite like him when he has a bad game, and there's absolutely no in-between with the guy. And that stinker of a game is always in the post somewhere.
Curious egg, Baptiste. As Bruce notes, when he's shit he looks four years past retirement age. But as Pru says, he's been good recently and in that frame of mind he's streets ahead of his rivals to sit alongside Santos. Chief among that is his ability to read the game far far better than out other centre-backs. Whereas Santos can get himself out of trouble with pace and power, Delaney will "bravely react" and Greenidge will usually fall over, Baptiste frequently works out entirely correctly what's going to happen. Perhaps that (and confirmation bias) what makes people worry about him, I dunno – with defenders, a lot of fans seem to prefer the last-ditch desperation of a John Terry to the match-reading anticipation of a Rio Ferdinand.

We do indeed need to replace Baptiste as first-choice next season, but if he carries on like this I wouldn't be against giving him another year. If we've got four better centre-backs than him next season I'll be a happy bunny, and I'm sure we all will.

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:09 pm

Indeed, some of Baptiste's reading of situations and subsequent positioning yesterday showed a master at work, but, when he gets that wrong he really does look like someone dragged out of retirement.
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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:31 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:47 pm
I'm delighted to get a win today but far from letting Evatt off the hook.for Tuesday. Yes I agree we'd have won.without the red, but also think we'd have won without the ridiculous decision to sub on Elbouzedi instead of a DM. I wrote Evatt off at that point and it'll take a lot more wins to change my mind. Hope we get them and I'll admit I'm a clueless bellemd who shouldn't be allowed the internet etc...
Each to his own and all that, LE, but of all the things to hang Evatt for – chiefly (but not solely) the twinned failures of overpromising and underdelivering - that seems a curious one.

With the benefit of hindsight binoculars, it now seems the wrong choice to bring on a winger at 1-0. But it wasn't that daft at the time. Before the context is lost down the slippery chute of time, let's remember where we were. The minute before that substitution, sub Declan John had cut promisingly down the right and, with Delfouneso watching on from somewhere in midfield, been forced by lack of options into a hopeful shot over. Watching the highlights, as he turns to drop back into his role, holding aloft his arm in apology, he looks across as if to wonder where his support was.

With Morecambe coming forward but our older legs tiring, we needed pace on the break. Evatt chose to switch Delf for a wide midfielder/attacker (Elbo), balancing Dapo on the other flank to create a flexible 4-4-1 transitioning to 4-2-3. If he had replaced Delf with Tutte, we would have had four defenders and three defensive midfielders behind Dapo and Doyle, who was also starting to drop deeper and deeper – fine if he can spin and send through a speedy wide attacker, less so if all he’s doing is passing back to an anchorman. Had we then conceded, Evatt would have been derided for his gutlessness.

As it happens, we conceded via the route which Morecambe were definitely playing for: a set piece. And at this point it’s worth noting that Andrew Tutte is 5ft 9in, while Zack Elbouzedi is a six-footer. Sadly, he let his man go for the header but there’s not much reason to suspect Tutte would have done a lot better – I don’t recall many booming headed clearances from him.

We should also remember that football is not just about one team, and in the 90 seconds or so before the fateful corner Morecambe brought on four substitutes (one of whom scored). No matter how much prematch analysis you do, there’s only so much “content” you can “load” and it’s not very surprising, if still saddening, that our defence didn’t quite know who to pick up or how to stop them.

I could blame Evatt for the inability to defend set pieces, although we've kept a lot more out lately. I could blame Elbo for not doing the job he'd been asked to do. But I can't blame Evatt for that change. And I can't imagine Tutte having helped much while defending set pieces. How many times has that happened?

What I won’t blame Evatt for is seeking to score goals and attack. I’ve had a decade’s diet of almost unadulterated shit, including some managers who’d rather our players cower on the edge of our area than dare to venture forward. Evatt has a lot to learn, but I hope he doesn’t stop trying to score goals.


TL:DR – Andy Tutte is 5ft 9.

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:33 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:15 am
LeverEnd wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:52 am
I was fairly underwhelmed by signing him,mainly because I'd never heard of him, but then he sounded like trouble and hadn't played well for a while. Also the adulation from our Twitter kids because he's a 'shagger' and a 'lad' and a ' shithouse' irritates me intensely. :roll:
He's a potential asset but I'm more impressed by John and Afolayan.
MM has not even had 90 mins of football in a BWFC shirt yet, give him a few games and a bit more time to settle in & understand how we play before judging. It must be quite difficult being a creative player the way we play with limited intensity & generally slow build up play.
Definitely, but some seem to have been expecting him to come in and light the place up with his brilliance.
Yours is the more realistic approach and I agree.
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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:33 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:09 pm
Indeed, some of Baptiste's reading of situations and subsequent positioning yesterday showed a master at work, but, when he gets that wrong he really does look like someone dragged out of retirement.
Yep, very true – but I guess that's where we're at. Up the divisions, poor players just look a bit out of place; down here, they look like grandparents and park players.

Last time we were here we had Dave Sutton... :shock:

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:54 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:31 pm
LeverEnd wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:47 pm
I'm delighted to get a win today but far from letting Evatt off the hook.for Tuesday. Yes I agree we'd have won.without the red, but also think we'd have won without the ridiculous decision to sub on Elbouzedi instead of a DM. I wrote Evatt off at that point and it'll take a lot more wins to change my mind. Hope we get them and I'll admit I'm a clueless bellemd who shouldn't be allowed the internet etc...
Each to his own and all that, LE, but of all the things to hang Evatt for – chiefly (but not solely) the twinned failures of overpromising and underdelivering - that seems a curious one.

With the benefit of hindsight binoculars, it now seems the wrong choice to bring on a winger at 1-0. But it wasn't that daft at the time. Before the context is lost down the slippery chute of time, let's remember where we were. The minute before that substitution, sub Declan John had cut promisingly down the right and, with Delfouneso watching on from somewhere in midfield, been forced by lack of options into a hopeful shot over. Watching the highlights, as he turns to drop back into his role, holding aloft his arm in apology, he looks across as if to wonder where his support was.

With Morecambe coming forward but our older legs tiring, we needed pace on the break. Evatt chose to switch Delf for a wide midfielder/attacker (Elbo), balancing Dapo on the other flank to create a flexible 4-4-1 transitioning to 4-2-3. If he had replaced Delf with Tutte, we would have had four defenders and three defensive midfielders behind Dapo and Doyle, who was also starting to drop deeper and deeper – fine if he can spin and send through a speedy wide attacker, less so if all he’s doing is passing back to an anchorman. Had we then conceded, Evatt would have been derided for his gutlessness.

As it happens, we conceded via the route which Morecambe were definitely playing for: a set piece. And at this point it’s worth noting that Andrew Tutte is 5ft 9in, while Zack Elbouzedi is a six-footer. Sadly, he let his man go for the header but there’s not much reason to suspect Tutte would have done a lot better – I don’t recall many booming headed clearances from him.

We should also remember that football is not just about one team, and in the 90 seconds or so before the fateful corner Morecambe brought on four substitutes (one of whom scored). No matter how much prematch analysis you do, there’s only so much “content” you can “load” and it’s not very surprising, if still saddening, that our defence didn’t quite know who to pick up or how to stop them.

I could blame Evatt for the inability to defend set pieces, although we've kept a lot more out lately. I could blame Elbo for not doing the job he'd been asked to do. But I can't blame Evatt for that change. And I can't imagine Tutte having helped much while defending set pieces. How many times has that happened?

What I won’t blame Evatt for is seeking to score goals and attack. I’ve had a decade’s diet of almost unadulterated shit, including some managers who’d rather our players cower on the edge of our area than dare to venture forward. Evatt has a lot to learn, but I hope he doesn’t stop trying to score goals.


TL:DR – Andy Tutte is 5ft 9.
I rather suspect that the sub of Elbouzedi is being used as a projection of Evatt’s naivety rathe than the isolated incident itself. It’s sort of a reflection of where we are, hanging on at home down to ten, bring on a thus far ineffective nothing winger who contributes absolutely nothing when defending rather than shoring up the midfield or back four.

The case can be effectively made as you have that it wouldn’t have made a difference in that instance. But I guess that’s the case for the prosecution there.

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:36 pm

Of course I'd like him to be adventurous and attack, but even without the benefit of hindsight, it was bonkers with Doyle and Dapo on there as well.
As for the marking at the corner, it's not that I'd have preferred Tutte to be doing the marking, but for there to be some evidence of a proper plan on how to defend set pieces that doesn't involve that runner into the box being challenged by either of them.
I have no desire for dull negative football, just a balance to the decision making and some sense of organisation.
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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by Bijou Bob » Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:17 pm

Same old, same old for me. When we move the ball quickly, we create space and look good going forward. Sadly, we only seem to do that for the odd ten minutes in each half, usually when we've fallen behind.

I thought Baptiste and Santos were fantastic, as was Thomasson, who's looking like a real find at this level. I have to say that Doyle disappoints me in some respects. Yes, he's the Fox in the Box we've been missing for so long and he can certainly finish, but you can see why he's never kicked on and played at a high level. His first touch is poor, as is his hold up play, he's slow and his work off the ball is at times non existent. Several times on Saturday he moved towards a defender in possession to close them down, but didn't get within five metres before the ball was played. Still, he'll get 20 this season with luck and if Madison gets his eye in, possibly a couple more. At least now he isn't having to come deep to take possession out of sheer boredom.

I've written this season off as far as promotion goes. I'm now predicting we miss the play off places by 4 points, which will be gutting, galling and a heavy price to pay for our early performances.
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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by The_Gun » Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:44 pm

Bijou Bob wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:17 pm
Same old, same old for me. When we move the ball quickly, we create space and look good going forward. Sadly, we only seem to do that for the odd ten minutes in each half, usually when we've fallen behind.

I thought Baptiste and Santos were fantastic, as was Thomasson, who's looking like a real find at this level. I have to say that Doyle disappoints me in some respects. Yes, he's the Fox in the Box we've been missing for so long and he can certainly finish, but you can see why he's never kicked on and played at a high level. His first touch is poor, as is his hold up play, he's slow and his work off the ball is at times non existent. Several times on Saturday he moved towards a defender in possession to close them down, but didn't get within five metres before the ball was played. Still, he'll get 20 this season with luck and if Madison gets his eye in, possibly a couple more. At least now he isn't having to come deep to take possession out of sheer boredom.

I've written this season off as far as promotion goes. I'm now predicting we miss the play off places by 4 points, which will be gutting, galling and a heavy price to pay for our early performances.
Yeah, I'm actually starting to agree with you regarding Doyle. He is a willing worker, but he doesn't really have the pace to close defenders down quickly enough, and his touch is fairly poor. Added to that his finishing has been pretty weak of late, and it does make you wonder whether Delf is worth a start up top.

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Re: An age to start a match thread? Stevenage, home, Saturday 13/2/21 @ 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:53 pm

Bijou Bob wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:17 pm
Same old, same old for me. When we move the ball quickly, we create space and look good going forward. Sadly, we only seem to do that for the odd ten minutes in each half, usually when we've fallen behind.

I thought Baptiste and Santos were fantastic, as was Thomasson, who's looking like a real find at this level. I have to say that Doyle disappoints me in some respects. Yes, he's the Fox in the Box we've been missing for so long and he can certainly finish, but you can see why he's never kicked on and played at a high level. His first touch is poor, as is his hold up play, he's slow and his work off the ball is at times non existent. Several times on Saturday he moved towards a defender in possession to close them down, but didn't get within five metres before the ball was played. Still, he'll get 20 this season with luck and if Madison gets his eye in, possibly a couple more. At least now he isn't having to come deep to take possession out of sheer boredom.

I've written this season off as far as promotion goes. I'm now predicting we miss the play off places by 4 points, which will be gutting, galling and a heavy price to pay for our early performances.
I think Doyle is quite a good channel runner - he's better at that than any other similar player we've had. But agree about the rest he doesn't have much to his game at all with his back to goal and lack of pace means he can be too easy to defend against.

For me I'd like to see how we look as a team with a different option up there because he offers no real fulcrum to the team so a Delf or a Dapo might just change our game with their pace and power up top. But of course Doyle scores goals and when he scores there is little issue. Its the same argument for me as Le Fondre - yes he scores goals but how many chance creations do you forfeit having someone up front who doesn't help the shape much? Its a fine balance of your improve goals to chances ratio with a good finisher vs your improved chance creation if you have an easier route to get the ball forward.

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