Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:16 am

I don't disagree with most of what you're saying here, just the ease with which you're contending Barrow could've won. Lot of "ifs" in it. Yes if they'd scored and we didn't they would have won. In any event it wouldn't have been easily, because they were more toothless in attack than us.

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by Mar » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:46 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:36 am
What I’m asking for is more situations like our goal where we get two or three in the box and get it in there from different angles. Sure we might do that and have only 60% possession but putting more crosses into the box earlier with more bodies in there will result in more chances against a team like Barrow insistent on defending their box. I suppose we’d have got more delivery if Jones beat the first man more. But above and beyond that we have to play at a higher tempo for me the period we did in the first half it looked a matter of time but we did it for ten minutes then stopped. I realise you can’t do that for 90 but absolutely we could press teams and move it quicker more than we did.
I'm sure Evatt and the team will be able to acknowledge that we're not the finished article and games like yesterday where the opposition frustrates us will likely mean us struggling to break them down, but that goes for any team. If we come up against a well drilled unit like Barrow were then any team is likely to struggle. The counter argument to that is that despite Barrow defending resolutely we did the same and nullified them to them only having one shot on target.

There's a good chance that if we'd've scored the first goal we'd've had to face an entirely different Barrow where they would be more attacking and caused us a multitude of other problems. Whichever way we look at it we've hit a really good purple patch and have got a variety of techniques defensively and offensively for handling whatever the opposition throws at us.

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by Prufrock » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:50 am

Can I just check, we have won five in a row right?
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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:06 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:50 am
Can I just check, we have won five in a row right?
Mr Evatt keeps saying "We're not happy with where we are in the League", so please be unhappy!

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by DJBlu » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:13 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:50 am
Can I just check, we have won five in a row right?
You wouldn't think so.

Grim place to be when we're winning.

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by TKIZ! » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:43 pm

I'll take 15 scabby 1-0 wins all day long if it gets us promoted. Yesterday Barrow had one (1) clear cut chance, we had five (5). That is not the same amount of chances even by my basic GCSE maths skills.

They parked the bus and then some, I would rather we kept the ball and restricted them to few chances than try and keep pinging the ball into the box with little effect. Also, John's cross for the goal wasn't a hit and hope, it was aimed at King Arthur, he may have miscontrolled it but Miller was again alert, which is waht you want from your strikers.

Can't we just be happy that we've hit this purple patch and hope that it continues? Isn't that what being a Wanderer is all about?
It's the hope that hooks you (or kills you)
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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by CrazyHorse » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:46 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:50 am
Can I just check, we have won five in a row right?
My hangover appears to suggest that, aye.
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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:57 pm

We've lost many a match we should have won, what's so different here? This is Division four, League two is it not, and we're lucky to still have a club after the last couple of years. All that matters in football is who scores a goal more than their opponents. We did yesterday. We have no Ivan Campo's and we won't be qualifying for U.E.F.A, instead we just beat Barrow by a last gasp goal. That's the reality. Enjoy it, I did. :wink:
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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by TKIZ! » Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:24 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:57 pm
We've lost many a match we should have won, what's so different here? This is Division four, League two is it not, and we're lucky to still have a club after the last couple of years. All that matters in football is who scores a goal more than their opponents. We did yesterday. We have no Ivan Campo's and we won't be qualifying for U.E.F.A, instead we just beat Barrow by a last gasp goal. That's the reality. Enjoy it, I did. :wink:
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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:52 pm

It’s a really interesting discussion, this – and, as Jim McDonuts says, nicer to have it as a “first-class problem” than the existential angst of earlier in the season.

When many here were ready to defenestrate Evatt I insisted there was more to come, but I’m not here to crow – and nor am I completely happy myself. I said after the midweek Scunny win – in which huge possession led to only our second two-goal cushion in three months – that I thought we could do better, and on that score I wasn’t delighted with yesterday’s performance, even if the manner of the victory was so sweet as to make me burst out laughing.

Jim McD is also right that we don’t score many early goals. It’s well noted that we finish strongly - from 76-90 minutes we’ve now scored 14 (a divisional high) and conceded 3 (lower than any bar Cambridge’s 2 - on of which was Sarce’s down there). What’s less trumpeted is that that’s the only 15-minute segment in which we’ve outscored the oppo, and that in the first half-hour we’ve only scored 8 – the same as Grimsby, fewer than Southend and Barrow.
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That might not be too bad if we weren’t also awful in the first 15 of the second half: we’ve scored just two goals from 46-60, which is the division’s joint worst – although it’s possibly is also worth noting that both led to away wins: Delf’s 56th-minute goal to put us 2-0 up at Harrogate meant their immediate arrears-halver didn’t matter, then Kioso’s 57th-minuter at Scunny won that game.

Good teams can have goalscorer from anywhere - Man City registered their 19th different Premier League goalscorer yesterday - but also any time. The bonus of scoring early is that teams are forced to some extent to come out - and if they don’t, then we already have the lead, as those two away goals demonstrate. (With four clean sheets in five, hopefully we’re past the stage where every defensive set piece is a fingernail-whittler.)
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Earlier this season, teams would come to ours, sit deep for 15 minutes until we blew ourselves out, then often score and beat us. The story is now different, and in the last week we’ve had two teams come and sit so deep they couldn’t see Gilks for the curvature of the earth. Scunthorpe switched to the front foot after going behind – a problem I’ll be happy for us to face many more times – but Barrow were content to be level and sat deep. As our form grows to mirror our reputation, they will not be the last.

What that requires is a plan, or several of them. Evatt gives the impression he is happy with us having majority possession and tiring the opposition; that’s fair to an extent, and the late goals testify in his support, but I’m still not convinced it needs to go that far.

Faced with a low block, the best possession teams do not take 10 or 15 seconds to switch sides by going from John to Baptiste to Santos to Williams to Santos to Jones: they switch suddenly, and accurately, and give the oppo far less time to shuffle over. Those long switches may not always work, but they ask a new question of the defensive phalanx, and question create spaces. Yesterday we missed Thomason’s vision and passing ability in that way.

We also missed Maddison, or rather the theoretical matchwinning Maddison who hasn’t arrived yet. I said before the game I’d rather start Sarce as No.10 at Oldham than for this game, and it never really looked like our beloved captain would suddenly either link with colleagues or produce the moment of inspiration to break down the Barrovian barricades.

In Maddison, Dapo and Arthur I think we have a decent selection of ‘individual’ matchwinners. But we might also need more content downloads for the groupthink ideals of quick movement. We might also need MJ to spend an hour after training hitting crossfield balls to switch play – Evatt has spoken highly of his ability in that area, and he certainly feels approximately a thousand times more likely than say Comley to do it right, but it didn’t happen yesterday. That might be practice or intent.

It doesn’t worry me massively, and I’m very aware (and elated) that we’re now above a different dotted line to the one we we warily eyeing six weeks ago. The team and manager are evolving, into something potentially very nice indeed. I would much rather watch us prowl about with 70% possession and argue that our winner came a bit late than to watch us cower with 30% and argue that theirs was inevitable. I also don’t buy an iota of the arse-water about this team somehow not having the “drive” or “desire”, a false narrative somehow not eliminated by several late comebacks.

But if we are to turn possession into penetration, we need to show the sort of energetic remorselessness Evatt clearly values – see for instance the slightly silly but psychologically fascinating idea of running off at half-time – and we need to show it by alternating between switching the play and asking direct 1v1 questions, encouraging players like Maddison, Dapo, Arthur and Isgrove to take men on, to drag covering defenders nearer, to make holes in the walls we’re going to have to smash down.

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:07 pm

What DSB said. Let’s just not become prisoners to possession over everything else. Have an ability to mix it up.

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by irie Cee Bee » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:35 pm

The simple truth is that teams know now that we have match winners and are no longer a team with a center that can be bullied. Therefore, they will be more cautious against us and sit behind the ball. The Res Sea will not just open for us, so be prepared for more games like yesterday.

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:06 pm

I don't think anyone's suggesting that just possession is enough, just that yesterdays game was a lot less scary than Orient away or Port Vale or 2nd half v Bradford. We were way more in control than those games.

Dunno whether it's perception or fact, but the last two games, both teams seem to have marshalled our left better than some in recent weeks, which with Isgrove and Jones on the right diminishes our threat value significantly in most games. We could really do with the real Marcus Maddison turning up. I'd be pretty pleased with allowing us more attacks from the right, no matter how fast it was switched, with Isgrove (Did ok v Scunny) and Jones out there.

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by truewhite15 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:38 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:52 pm
It’s a really interesting discussion, this – and, as Jim McDonuts says, nicer to have it as a “first-class problem” than the existential angst of earlier in the season.

When many here were ready to defenestrate Evatt I insisted there was more to come, but I’m not here to crow – and nor am I completely happy myself. I said after the midweek Scunny win – in which huge possession led to only our second two-goal cushion in three months – that I thought we could do better, and on that score I wasn’t delighted with yesterday’s performance, even if the manner of the victory was so sweet as to make me burst out laughing.

Jim McD is also right that we don’t score many early goals. It’s well noted that we finish strongly - from 76-90 minutes we’ve now scored 14 (a divisional high) and conceded 3 (lower than any bar Cambridge’s 2 - on of which was Sarce’s down there). What’s less trumpeted is that that’s the only 15-minute segment in which we’ve outscored the oppo, and that in the first half-hour we’ve only scored 8 – the same as Grimsby, fewer than Southend and Barrow.
.
goaltimes.jpg
.
That might not be too bad if we weren’t also awful in the first 15 of the second half: we’ve scored just two goals from 46-60, which is the division’s joint worst – although it’s possibly is also worth noting that both led to away wins: Delf’s 56th-minute goal to put us 2-0 up at Harrogate meant their immediate arrears-halver didn’t matter, then Kioso’s 57th-minuter at Scunny won that game.

Good teams can have goalscorer from anywhere - Man City registered their 19th different Premier League goalscorer yesterday - but also any time. The bonus of scoring early is that teams are forced to some extent to come out - and if they don’t, then we already have the lead, as those two away goals demonstrate. (With four clean sheets in five, hopefully we’re past the stage where every defensive set piece is a fingernail-whittler.)
.
Goal times.jpg
.
Earlier this season, teams would come to ours, sit deep for 15 minutes until we blew ourselves out, then often score and beat us. The story is now different, and in the last week we’ve had two teams come and sit so deep they couldn’t see Gilks for the curvature of the earth. Scunthorpe switched to the front foot after going behind – a problem I’ll be happy for us to face many more times – but Barrow were content to be level and sat deep. As our form grows to mirror our reputation, they will not be the last.

What that requires is a plan, or several of them. Evatt gives the impression he is happy with us having majority possession and tiring the opposition; that’s fair to an extent, and the late goals testify in his support, but I’m still not convinced it needs to go that far.

Faced with a low block, the best possession teams do not take 10 or 15 seconds to switch sides by going from John to Baptiste to Santos to Williams to Santos to Jones: they switch suddenly, and accurately, and give the oppo far less time to shuffle over. Those long switches may not always work, but they ask a new question of the defensive phalanx, and question create spaces. Yesterday we missed Thomason’s vision and passing ability in that way.

We also missed Maddison, or rather the theoretical matchwinning Maddison who hasn’t arrived yet. I said before the game I’d rather start Sarce as No.10 at Oldham than for this game, and it never really looked like our beloved captain would suddenly either link with colleagues or produce the moment of inspiration to break down the Barrovian barricades.

In Maddison, Dapo and Arthur I think we have a decent selection of ‘individual’ matchwinners. But we might also need more content downloads for the groupthink ideals of quick movement. We might also need MJ to spend an hour after training hitting crossfield balls to switch play – Evatt has spoken highly of his ability in that area, and he certainly feels approximately a thousand times more likely than say Comley to do it right, but it didn’t happen yesterday. That might be practice or intent.

It doesn’t worry me massively, and I’m very aware (and elated) that we’re now above a different dotted line to the one we we warily eyeing six weeks ago. The team and manager are evolving, into something potentially very nice indeed. I would much rather watch us prowl about with 70% possession and argue that our winner came a bit late than to watch us cower with 30% and argue that theirs was inevitable. I also don’t buy an iota of the arse-water about this team somehow not having the “drive” or “desire”, a false narrative somehow not eliminated by several late comebacks.

But if we are to turn possession into penetration, we need to show the sort of energetic remorselessness Evatt clearly values – see for instance the slightly silly but psychologically fascinating idea of running off at half-time – and we need to show it by alternating between switching the play and asking direct 1v1 questions, encouraging players like Maddison, Dapo, Arthur and Isgrove to take men on, to drag covering defenders nearer, to make holes in the walls we’re going to have to smash down.
Anybody told you lately that you should think about going into some sort of football journalism as a career? :grin:

Spot on.

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:44 pm

truewhite15 wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:38 pm
Anybody told you lately that you should think about going into some sort of football journalism as a career? :grin:

Spot on.
Yeah – more and more of them since I left and went into freelance news-feature writing :lol:

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by Jim_McDonuts » Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:29 pm

Yup - +1.
Thx DSB - top analysis and excel-fu!

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:51 pm

I'm quite surprised Thomason didn't enter the fold in the second half yesterday. If the intention was to dominate possession and hope to tempt them into making a mistake - and it seemed to be - his ability to switch the play quickly would've been very useful. One of the reasons we found it difficult to drag them out of position was that they were defensively well organised and were content to sit deep and play for a point, but another was that it often took us two or three passes to play it from one flank to the other. It's no wonder we rarely looked threatening until we took a more direct route.

I know it might come across as daft to be on any way critical after five wins on the trot, but as was pointed out above, the more successful we are the more likely teams will become wary of us and adapt their strategies. If that means ceding possession and looking to hit us on the counter then being able to effectively break the opposition down could quickly become a problem Evatt needs to find an answer to.

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by Prufrock » Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:38 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:09 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:03 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:02 pm
DJBlu wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:00 pm
Do they call that Fergie time?

Totally undeserved but as they say, when you win playing poorly there is something in it.

Gary Henshaw needs to be told to shut up as I didn't celebrate that goal with his persistent calls for offside. Take a look at the linesman you dick.
It was embarrassing that. He said offside before he even hit it so I didn’t celebrate either. Then realised Henshaw was a moron so my iPad ended up across the room in delayed triumph.
Me too. Man's a f**king moron.
It's our equivalent of VAR. Realising we have in fact scored a goal when that idiot says "well it certainly *looked* offside"
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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:40 pm

By the same token, and I can't embed it no matter what I try, someone on Twitter has dubbed Jack Deaden's Wilbraham commentary over Miller's goal yesterday. It's a thousand times better for it. :mrgreen:

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Re: Will the wheel drop off? Barrow (h) 27/02/21 15:00

Post by Prufrock » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:59 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:40 pm
By the same token, and I can't embed it no matter what I try, someone on Twitter has dubbed Jack Deaden's Wilbraham commentary over Miller's goal yesterday. It's a thousand times better for it. :mrgreen:
If you're on your phone you need to get rid of the last little bit something like "?s=19" I think.
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