Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by truewhite15 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:50 pm

The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:30 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:53 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:51 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:17 pm
officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:14 pm
He means chill out and forget about it. Part of me still thinks we’ll enjoy next season more if it’s a promotion tint at L2 under Evatt as opposed to watching it on iFollow this. On one hand I’ve watched more games than I would of done, on another it’s a bit shit not being there now.
What if Evatt is one of those nearly managers who takes teams close but can’t get them over the line? He didn’t have to do the run in with Barrow. And those managers exist we’ve seen them.
Then I"m sure he'll get told to fcuk right off by a load 9f bellends. If my aunt had balls.
In the meantime we’d be stuck in league two and I’m not getting any younger. Fed up of excuses. This lot are good enough to go up. Take the pressure and do it. Because if not the pressure will only be doubled next season.
Get over yourself. We're currently sat in automatic promotion place. We won't be champions of Europe before we both kark it.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:32 am

Get a grip, it's like listening to a 4 tear old whinging because their alphabet spaghetti had the wrong letters to spell their name. We have a manager still learning their trade and an entire squad assembled in 2 transfer windows under embargo. Of course the mix of players isn't quite right. Of course some of the players are frustratingly deficient in parts of the game. Of course the manager has made mistakes.

We've just had one of the best half seasons in our lifetimes

We have genuine hope of progression

We have a good opportunity of promotion

We are no longer owned by an arsehole or managed by a nice person

Put your toys back in the pram, pull your big boys pants up and strap yourself in for a roller-coaster last few weeks. If for nothing else this is why we put ourselves through the agony of football, for times like this.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by Prufrock » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:09 am

Amen to that. I read through last night when I got in. Good grief.
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That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:37 am

I completely understand the anger, which as usual is a manifestation of fear.

I completely understand the fear, which is partly the usual thing of "it always happens to us" and partly, I suspect, a dormant but not extinct distrust of the manager.

I sort of understand the distrust of the manager. He's very far from perfect.

I also understand that a forum is a place for fans to express their opinions, and for others to express their disagreements with those opinions. That understanding doesn't make it easier to read, sometimes, but I suppose that's for me to don my own big boy pants.

In the end I suspect it's about personality types. BWFCi called me "enormously positive", which I don't always feel, but I have been trained to disassociate emotion from intellect. From where I sit, we're still more likely to go up than Morecambe, more likely to go up than not, and certainly a truckload more likely to go up than I imagined, even last summer; you may recall this perennial optimist predicted a late but fruitless charge from mid-table toward the play-offs, so they've already exceeded my expectations. Even so, I can't begin to argue that it wouldn't be an absolute sickener if we lost it from here, and I understand that the fear of that causes recriminations in advance.

We all want success. I hope we can all enjoy it together.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by Dujon » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:41 am

Churchill: we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and ...

Blimey, DSb, you had me all dewy eyed there for a bit.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by Mar » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:43 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:37 am
I completely understand the anger, which as usual is a manifestation of fear.

I completely understand the fear, which is partly the usual thing of "it always happens to us" and partly, I suspect, a dormant but not extinct distrust of the manager.

I sort of understand the distrust of the manager. He's very far from perfect.

I also understand that a forum is a place for fans to express their opinions, and for others to express their disagreements with those opinions. That understanding doesn't make it easier to read, sometimes, but I suppose that's for me to don my own big boy pants.

In the end I suspect it's about personality types. BWFCi called me "enormously positive", which I don't always feel, but I have been trained to disassociate emotion from intellect. From where I sit, we're still more likely to go up than Morecambe, more likely to go up than not, and certainly a truckload more likely to go up than I imagined, even last summer; you may recall this perennial optimist predicted a late but fruitless charge from mid-table toward the play-offs, so they've already exceeded my expectations. Even so, I can't begin to argue that it wouldn't be an absolute sickener if we lost it from here, and I understand that the fear of that causes recriminations in advance.

We all want success. I hope we can all enjoy it together.
I sense that we are in a good position to go up and certainly in a better position than most, but we are starting to panic as this is all new to the team. Playing catchup is straightforward and highly unexpected given the position we were in. The ability for us to throw it away is something we don't want to lose but may happen which I suspect would be causing all sorts of concerns or rushing of play than we would normally expect. Against Grimsby we didn't dictate tempo and were pressed into turnovers a lot more than we would've liked. Far more different than our usual game of frustrating the opposition.

If we go up then great. If we don't go up then i'll be disappointed but it may allow us to prepare for a longer term push up the leagues. I suspect we had the same first season with Allardyce whose second season may have gone badly wrong had we been promoted that season.

We've only just had an increased budget this season due to FFP being overturned in the latter half and Evatt's now got a firm idea of requirements for league two. Take out the mistakes of the first transfer window, whether that be Phoenix or Evatt's doing and we've got a sign that our recruitment is massively better.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:01 pm

That’s a good post DSB and I think we are fearful of being stuck in this awful league.

I was watching the FA Cup Semi yesterday and it dawned on me how to articulate my issue with our side. Man City yesterday clearly on paper and in practice for majority of this season have the better of the two sides. But yesterday they played a semi final with a lack of real intensity for whatever reason. Chelsea who have lesser talent had a plan and played with real intensity in all they did, attacking, defending and whatever. City had more of the ball in spells, considerably more for periods, but weren’t really playing with the intensity required and that led to sloppy play.

For me even in our good run we’ve at times not played with the real intent or intensity required. We see it not only in tempo but sometimes in our final balls, the sloppy approach to them, hItting the first man time and time again, in our set pieces and our defending at times. We have the better players than Grimsby but we didn’t match their intent or intensity throughout the game, when we had chances we were too casual rather than drilling the ball with the laces which at times is what you need when struggling to score. Second half against Salford we played with superb intensity and intent not to concede. But then went to Grimsby and were lacking those things.

We’ve done the same in games we’ve ended up winning. The casual sashaying of Santos out of defence is great fun mid season when we are winning but now when it counts when everyone is playing for prizes is that the right message? Is cutely side footing a chance to the opponents keeper rather than putting your laces through it and playing the percentages the right option? Don’t pick on individual elements of this my view is that as a team we at times just don’t have the intensity needed. Salford showed we can. But too many games even where we’ve won we haven’t really shown it in my view. Yesterday was a classic example.

EDIT: I should add this is all potentially a product of mental and physical tiredness after a gruelling run where we won a lot to get into contention. If so it would be a massive shame. But it happens. If it’s down to something else though it needs looking at for next season.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:26 pm

The problem with that argument, is that whilst it points to some of our (or City's) failings in a given game, it also ignores that the style of play in question is the one that's put our destiny still (currently) in our own hands and has won City numerous titles and cups. If there was a way on any given game to guarantee a win for one side, I'm sure bookies would find something else to do.

It also ignores that the "way to play" that's being espoused, be it Harrogate, Grimsby or whoever has bought them less wins than we have.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:46 pm

I suspect that as with many arguments, it's prey to confirmation bias. And with something as difficult to define, let alone quantify, as "intensity" or "style" then it's difficult to diagnose accurately, even if there were the intention to find a common ground or even that nebulous concept of The Truth.

For instance, I understand how a sidefooted shot can be irritating when the keeper throws his cap on it. But equally, the other night most of us were howling for Dapo to stop misguidedly hammering the ball whenever in sight of goal. There's no definitive right answer there, but we all notice the bits that back our beliefs, unless or until the opposing evidence becomes overwhelming.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:10 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:26 pm
The problem with that argument, is that whilst it points to some of our (or City's) failings in a given game, it also ignores that the style of play in question is the one that's put our destiny still (currently) in our own hands and has won City numerous titles and cups. If there was a way on any given game to guarantee a win for one side, I'm sure bookies would find something else to do.

It also ignores that the "way to play" that's being espoused, be it Harrogate, Grimsby or whoever has bought them less wins than we have.
It’s not the style of play I’m questioning. Doesn’t matter if you hammer it long or pass teams to death - City weren’t short yesterday because of their style but just because on the day they didn’t have the intensity to their play they normally would. And to their credit Chelsea did.

It’s not about style. Making sure on shots or utilising set pieces doesn’t have anything to do with how you play. Or matching a physical side like Grimsby in key areas. City on a normal day do those things. We have done it too. We’ve shown intensity at Salford or in an attacking sense against Cambridge as an example. We just for me haven’t done it enough.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:15 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:46 pm
I suspect that as with many arguments, it's prey to confirmation bias. And with something as difficult to define, let alone quantify, as "intensity" or "style" then it's difficult to diagnose accurately, even if there were the intention to find a common ground or even that nebulous concept of The Truth.

For instance, I understand how a sidefooted shot can be irritating when the keeper throws his cap on it. But equally, the other night most of us were howling for Dapo to stop misguidedly hammering the ball whenever in sight of goal. There's no definitive right answer there, but we all notice the bits that back our beliefs, unless or until the opposing evidence becomes overwhelming.
Yes I agree that it’s hard to define. And I was giving examples like finishing that I knew would be jumped on. But our finishing can often be defined as casual. Doyle yesterday for example when John fired one across - I’ve no idea why he wasn’t on the end of that and even as the ball was played he could have got there. These are isolated examples of it that on their own happen to all teams all the time. I just perceive our balance to be too far towards the relaxed and casual end and not enough intensity and focus at times. I realise these are not tangible terms and mean different things to people and probably something that Evatt is aware of. Not that it’s easy to put your finger on it as I’m sure it’s not deliberate.

As an example though there are those teams that maybe score with their one or two chances every game - we were like that under Allardyce. And then those teams that maybe miss 10 chances regularly - and often it’s not down to the quality of their strikers. There is that intangible factor that I believe plays a part. Be it attitude or just the way teams approach things.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:26 pm

Yep, and I know you said don't jump on examples but it's a perfect Eye Of Beholder job. FWIW, I was hollering at Doyle for that cross-shot too, but in his defence he may have been slightly blocked and it did fair whizz across him.

I do understand what you mean (I think) and I see it every week on the pitch myself. (My personal hate, for example, is players being on their heels rather than their toes.) I'm not sure it shrieks of lack of desire, and again we could point to plenty of late comebacks, brave blocks etc.

Either way, I think we have to be careful with pining for a return to the days of creating two chances per game. For me, it's uglier to watch - and even the results-first posse can't possibly argue that fewer chances is a good thing.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:31 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:26 pm
Yep, and I know you said don't jump on examples but it's a perfect Eye Of Beholder job. FWIW, I was hollering at Doyle for that cross-shot too, but in his defence he may have been slightly blocked and it did fair whizz across him.

I do understand what you mean (I think) and I see it every week on the pitch myself. (My personal hate, for example, is players being on their heels rather than their toes.) I'm not sure it shrieks of lack of desire, and again we could point to plenty of late comebacks, brave blocks etc.

Either way, I think we have to be careful with pining for a return to the days of creating two chances per game. For me, it's uglier to watch - and even the results-first posse can't possibly argue that fewer chances is a good thing.
I’d agree it’s not a conscious lack of desire. It’s something hard to define. And again I’m not talking style. Rioch’s team probably the best example of a team that almost always turned up with intensity and tempo and the ‘x factor’ required to get the job done but they weren’t a 2 chance a game long ball side. Same for Todd’s champions - though that team had exceptional characters in it. Perhaps it is down to a lack of strong characters in our side now?

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:47 pm

See, "characters" is another of those confirmation-bias concepts (and not a word that was heard much when we were winning 31 points out of 33). I'd say Santos is more of a character than, say, Djorkaeff, but character does not equal will to win. Harry Kane's not a character, but he's gutsy. Chic Charnley was a character, which is one of the reasons he generally got sent off before the pies had cooled.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:53 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:47 pm
See, "characters" is another of those confirmation-bias concepts (and not a word that was heard much when we were winning 31 points out of 33). I'd say Santos is more of a character than, say, Djorkaeff, but character does not equal will to win. Harry Kane's not a character, but he's gutsy. Chic Charnley was a character, which is one of the reasons he generally got sent off before the pies had cooled.
Would you have tried side footing a cheeky finish when we needed a goal in a side with Taggart, Pollock and Sheridan in it? I guess that’s my point. Perhaps we don’t quite have the right balance in there to drive each other on?

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:04 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:53 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:47 pm
See, "characters" is another of those confirmation-bias concepts (and not a word that was heard much when we were winning 31 points out of 33). I'd say Santos is more of a character than, say, Djorkaeff, but character does not equal will to win. Harry Kane's not a character, but he's gutsy. Chic Charnley was a character, which is one of the reasons he generally got sent off before the pies had cooled.
Would you have tried side footing a cheeky finish when we needed a goal in a side with Taggart, Pollock and Sheridan in it? I guess that’s my point. Perhaps we don’t quite have the right balance in there to drive each other on?
Oh come now, sir. I'm sure at least one of the 100 goals in that league campaign was sidefooted. And I'm sure that Dapo (or whoever) doesn't think "Tell you what, I might arse about here as nobody's going to bollock me if I fail"?

For me I think the "character" argument strays dangerously close to the old (and particularly British) idea that players should somehow act like WWI cannon fodder - run through walls, etc. If it's possible, why not walk round the wall?

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:12 pm

I don't think anyone's saying there aren't areas we can (and should) improve nor do I think anyone's saying we were at our best in some of the games recently highlighted.

Whilst I have "winning" as the number one goal of professional sports teams. There will still be plenty of times we don't, which is of course more likely to garner accusations of not trying, lacking intensity, commitment is another favourite.

I see a decent 4th tier side in front of me. In 4th tier, I expect that there'll be times that a 4th tier player is caught on their heels, pick the "wrong" option on shooting etc. If they ironed all these point in time inconsistencies out of their game, then they probably wouldn't be in the 4th tier. That doesn't make it any the less frustrating for us watching.

So I come back to whether I've seen us progress over the season. Undoubtedly yes for me, first half to second half. Like all of us, I want that improvement to carry us up, but aware that it might not, because as Insano is happy to point out, there are many imperfections. If you'd told me just 2 months back we'd be in with a shout of the playoffs, I'd have taken it.

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:19 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:04 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:53 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:47 pm
See, "characters" is another of those confirmation-bias concepts (and not a word that was heard much when we were winning 31 points out of 33). I'd say Santos is more of a character than, say, Djorkaeff, but character does not equal will to win. Harry Kane's not a character, but he's gutsy. Chic Charnley was a character, which is one of the reasons he generally got sent off before the pies had cooled.
Would you have tried side footing a cheeky finish when we needed a goal in a side with Taggart, Pollock and Sheridan in it? I guess that’s my point. Perhaps we don’t quite have the right balance in there to drive each other on?
Oh come now, sir. I'm sure at least one of the 100 goals in that league campaign was sidefooted. And I'm sure that Dapo (or whoever) doesn't think "Tell you what, I might arse about here as nobody's going to bollock me if I fail"?

For me I think the "character" argument strays dangerously close to the old (and particularly British) idea that players should somehow act like WWI cannon fodder - run through walls, etc. If it's possible, why not walk round the wall?
We don't seem to do much analysis, when they go in. I don't recall Isgrove's two recent goals attracting the suggestion that he should've just put his laces through them...

Really easy with a lot of time to re-look, different angle than the bloke on the pitch has etc. To declare the appropriate course of action as "bung your laces through it"

From what I've seen of Dapo's shooting, neither approach has worked so far...

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Re: Time to batter the fish wives? Grimsby (A) - Sat 17th Apr 12:30 KO

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:34 pm

Mar wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:43 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:37 am
I completely understand the anger, which as usual is a manifestation of fear.

I completely understand the fear, which is partly the usual thing of "it always happens to us" and partly, I suspect, a dormant but not extinct distrust of the manager.

I sort of understand the distrust of the manager. He's very far from perfect.

I also understand that a forum is a place for fans to express their opinions, and for others to express their disagreements with those opinions. That understanding doesn't make it easier to read, sometimes, but I suppose that's for me to don my own big boy pants.

In the end I suspect it's about personality types. BWFCi called me "enormously positive", which I don't always feel, but I have been trained to disassociate emotion from intellect. From where I sit, we're still more likely to go up than Morecambe, more likely to go up than not, and certainly a truckload more likely to go up than I imagined, even last summer; you may recall this perennial optimist predicted a late but fruitless charge from mid-table toward the play-offs, so they've already exceeded my expectations. Even so, I can't begin to argue that it wouldn't be an absolute sickener if we lost it from here, and I understand that the fear of that causes recriminations in advance.

We all want success. I hope we can all enjoy it together.
I sense that we are in a good position to go up and certainly in a better position than most, but we are starting to panic as this is all new to the team. Playing catchup is straightforward and highly unexpected given the position we were in. The ability for us to throw it away is something we don't want to lose but may happen which I suspect would be causing all sorts of concerns or rushing of play than we would normally expect. Against Grimsby we didn't dictate tempo and were pressed into turnovers a lot more than we would've liked. Far more different than our usual game of frustrating the opposition.

If we go up then great. If we don't go up then i'll be disappointed but it may allow us to prepare for a longer term push up the leagues. I suspect we had the same first season with Allardyce whose second season may have gone badly wrong had we been promoted that season.

We've only just had an increased budget this season due to FFP being overturned in the latter half and Evatt's now got a firm idea of requirements for league two. Take out the mistakes of the first transfer window, whether that be Phoenix or Evatt's doing and we've got a sign that our recruitment is massively better.
Re that Allardyce season his first season here was half a season where we lost three semi finals (thanks Deano and Barry Knight) and then proceeded to have our side completely gutted due to the clubs financial situation. Losing likes of Gudjohnsen and Jensen and Johansen and later Fish. We had to rebuild on a tiny budget and our major signing of note in the summer was an unheard of Michael Ricketts for £400k. We went up thanks to brilliant management and arguably a bit of luck in Ricketts working out so well (or amazing judgement doesn’t matter). But I’d certainly not say it was a case of being better off. Sam himself said he knew had we not gone up that season the club would have gone bust so the pressure on going up was absolutely immense.

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