CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Prufrock » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:49 am

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:39 am
I mean this was funny for about five minutes but lord above. Trolls gonna troll. You can't engage/reason.
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by jmjhb » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:41 pm

It comes as no surprise that seemingly the only person who can tolerate Gudnib on any forum is similarly insufferable, a man for whom a thousand words is not enough when one would suffice.

Have a read towards the end for some navel-gaving nonsense:

https://boltonnuts.forumotion.co.uk/t22 ... -june-2020

If tl;dr (and I couldn't blame you, honestly), us lot are all stupid. :lol:

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:56 pm

jmjhb wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:41 pm
It comes as no surprise that seemingly the only person who can tolerate Gudnib on any forum is similarly insufferable, a man for whom a thousand words is not enough when one would suffice.

Have a read towards the end for some navel-gaving nonsense:

https://boltonnuts.forumotion.co.uk/t22 ... -june-2020

If tl;dr (and I couldn't blame you, honestly), us lot are all stupid. :lol:
:lol: I'm just delighted to find out I'm an accountant! :-)

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:17 pm

Ah, so Sluffy," the Walter Mitty of football support is involved. All is explained. :lol:
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:12 pm

Gudnib wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:11 am

Your limited knowledge is erm..... limited. End of.
What comments have you to make regarding our ROIC for the same period?
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:31 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:12 pm
Gudnib wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:11 am

Your limited knowledge is erm..... limited. End of.
What comments have you to make regarding our ROIC for the same period?
There wasn't any ROIC.

Someone asked Kieran Maguire about the gearing ratio. There isn't a gearing ratio either because the owners equity was swallowed up in FV's first year. BWFC is wholly reliant on debt and the debt is growing.

Where did the money come from to allow the January team strengthening? I don't know; there's very little transparency but I have a hunch that the availability of COVID funding may have helped. FGR's owner seems to have been bailed out with massive COVID loans.

Cousin Vinny loves to be photographed. I wonder how long he spends in front of the mirror to perfect his image.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Bruce Rioja » Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:30 am

Gudnib wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:31 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:12 pm
Gudnib wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:11 am

Your limited knowledge is erm..... limited. End of.
What comments have you to make regarding our ROIC for the same period?
There wasn't any ROIC.

Someone asked Kieran Maguire about the gearing ratio. There isn't a gearing ratio either because the owners equity was swallowed up in FV's first year. BWFC is wholly reliant on debt and the debt is growing.

Where did the money come from to allow the January team strengthening? I don't know; there's very little transparency but I have a hunch that the availability of COVID funding may have helped. FGR's owner seems to have been bailed out with massive COVID loans.

Cousin Vinny loves to be photographed. I wonder how long he spends in front of the mirror to perfect his image.
Interesting. Cheers. So we're headed off towards Dicky's Meadow again, would you say?
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:42 pm

Interesting. Cheers. So we're headed off towards Dicky's Meadow again, would you say?
[/quote]

No need to panic. FV have said that the imminent debts are covered and I see no reason to challenge that.

FV have taken on quite a big commitment in the £28.5million they seem to have agreed to pay for the Group assets and the direction of travel seems to be towards more commitments and more debt. Is there a profitable business plan or a Sugar Daddy in sight? Not from where I'm sitting though the same might be said for many professional football clubs.

Largely thanks to the Bolton News, most people neither knew nor cared how much BWFC relied on Eddie Davies to keep the show on the road for the best part of twenty years.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Bruce Rioja » Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:21 pm

Gudnib wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:42 pm
Interesting. Cheers. So we're headed off towards Dicky's Meadow again, would you say?
No need to panic. FV have said that the imminent debts are covered and I see no reason to challenge that.

FV have taken on quite a big commitment in the £28.5million they seem to have agreed to pay for the Group assets and the direction of travel seems to be towards more commitments and more debt. Is there a profitable business plan or a Sugar Daddy in sight? Not from where I'm sitting though the same might be said for many professional football clubs.

Largely thanks to the Bolton News, most people neither knew nor cared how much BWFC relied on Eddie Davies to keep the show on the road for the best part of twenty years.
[/quote]

See, I've said from further back than I care to remember that football exists within the economics of the madhouse.

I used to cringe at the fan-forums when Gartside would come out with lines such as "It's not real debt" "It's owed to one bloke who doesn't want it back" and Hey, "We own the stadium".

No accountant, me, however, you could see our fiscal disaster coming a mile off - If BWFC were finishing in the top eight of the Premier League whilst playing in the latter stages of both European and domestic cup competitions yet STILL running at a loss then it was only ever heading in one direction.

I've been following this thread with interest and whereas I'm far more confident these days regarding our financial standing I'll feel a whole lot better about thing 'should' we ever record a profit, even a modest one.
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:02 pm

I'm afraid, Bruce, that PG was correct. The debt due to Eddie was not the problem. The club's problem was the recurring annual deficits that relied on Eddie keep putting in more and more. That couldn't last and it didn't.

But is it even possible for BWFC to exist at any level without extraordinary good fortune, a Sugar Daddy or a collection of them? History suggests that it isn't.

The club (or to be more exact Burnden Leisure) did make a small profit in 2017/18 as a result of somebody (we won't say who) persuading Cardiff City to part with £6million for the services of G Madine Esq. It was only just enough to cover the operating deficit for the year which, in itself, was small by Championship standards.

The club also made small profits between 2003 and 2006 when the idea of making BWFC sustainable was a more realistic aim than it was soon to become.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:06 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:21 pm
Gudnib wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:42 pm
Interesting. Cheers. So we're headed off towards Dicky's Meadow again, would you say?
No need to panic. FV have said that the imminent debts are covered and I see no reason to challenge that.

FV have taken on quite a big commitment in the £28.5million they seem to have agreed to pay for the Group assets and the direction of travel seems to be towards more commitments and more debt. Is there a profitable business plan or a Sugar Daddy in sight? Not from where I'm sitting though the same might be said for many professional football clubs.

Largely thanks to the Bolton News, most people neither knew nor cared how much BWFC relied on Eddie Davies to keep the show on the road for the best part of twenty years.
See, I've said from further back than I care to remember that football exists within the economics of the madhouse.

I used to cringe at the fan-forums when Gartside would come out with lines such as "It's not real debt" "It's owed to one bloke who doesn't want it back" and Hey, "We own the stadium".

No accountant, me, however, you could see our fiscal disaster coming a mile off - If BWFC were finishing in the top eight of the Premier League whilst playing in the latter stages of both European and domestic cup competitions yet STILL running at a loss then it was only ever heading in one direction.

I've been following this thread with interest and whereas I'm far more confident these days regarding our financial standing I'll feel a whole lot better about thing 'should' we ever record a profit, even a modest one.
[/quote]

All of what Gartside said about the debt was true though - it was in the main written off - over 100M of it. It was owed to one man who again never recalled the bulk of it. And we did own the stadium. The problem IMHO was not the debt it was the inability as you say to either guarantee sustained success OR run at break even to ensure ED's debt didn't grow.

I feel our losses last year considering the position were relatively modest. I'd not rule out the possibility than in a year or 2 FV could get us to a break even point once hotel revenue is maximised and one assumes costs are now under control. That doesn't help the debt commitments but we simply do not know how acute any of those are.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:45 pm

It was all written off. The whole lot of it including the interest added to the account. The cost to Eddie (and Sue) Davies was nearly £200million, plus the opportunity costs that were the result of taking the money out of profitable investments. You could possibly double that £200million.

The last £10million of the loans made whilst Eddie was owner were written off during the negotiations with FV.

There was another c. £7.5million on top of that. A long story that one but £2million of that £7.5m was written off as part of the FV deal and another £2.75million was written off later subject to additional payments in the event of the club gaining promotion.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Harry Genshaw » Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:54 pm

Gudnib wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:02 pm
I'm afraid, Bruce, that PG was correct. The debt due to Eddie was not the problem. The club's problem was the recurring annual deficits that relied on Eddie keep putting in more and more. That couldn't last and it didn't.
The recurring annual deficits that ultimately, Eddie kept signing off through PG.

As a comparison, Wigan were in the PL 2 or 3 years less than we were. They would have received £120-150m less TV revenue than we did. Our debts and outgoings dwarfed theirs to the extent Dave Whelan was openly critical/skeptical.
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:09 pm

Gudnib wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:45 pm
It was all written off. The whole lot of it including the interest added to the account. The cost to Eddie (and Sue) Davies was nearly £200million, plus the opportunity costs that were the result of taking the money out of profitable investments. You could possibly double that £200million.

The last £10million of the loans made whilst Eddie was owner were written off during the negotiations with FV.

There was another c. £7.5million on top of that. A long story that one but £2million of that £7.5m was written off as part of the FV deal and another £2.75million was written off later subject to additional payments in the event of the club gaining promotion.
First, I have no doubts about what ED did for our club, he gave me a childhood dream that I thought I'd never see in my lifetime.

At Admin time, the Admins reported that we owed £10m to Fildraw/Moonshift and that this was disputed by Fildraw as they believed they were owed £17m. Since FVWL came into being, there have been two outstanding charges in favour of Fildraw. One relating to the stadium, and the second relating to some land parcels and all the IP assets. These weren't showing on CH as being satisfied until Oct 2020 - so after the accounting period that's just been reported.

I'm a little bit lost in a couple of areas, in relation to these. One looks to have been created at the time of the takeover relating to the land parcels and IP, the other was created in 2020 relating to the stadium. Are you saying they were nil value/write offs, at the point they were created? Do you think we'll see outgoings in relation to them in the next set of accounts? I'm not sure why these two charges would have been created, if there was nothing Fildraw were looking to recoup?

(I'm not trying to have a dig, just ascertain your viewpoint)

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:03 am

As I said, its a long story and its best to take it in small bites. To begin with, the Club Administrators were appointed by Fildraw's legal advisors and it seems to me implausible that the Admins were not fully advised and aware of the secured £10m still owing from the old Fildraw/Moonshift loans and the further advances made to Ken Anderson to facilitate the club's continuance in business.

The Admins deal with all this in unclear and unconvincing terms implying that they had insufficient knowledge of the composition of the rounded off figure of £17m Fildraw 'believes' it was owed or the £7.5m that Anderson 'believes' he was owed and that he in turn owed to Fildraw. They further implied that the c.£5million lent by Fildraw to KA to fund the settlement of the Blumarble debt did not create a debt to the person who paid off Blumarble. (i.e. Ken Anderson with Fildraw or ED's money).

Furthermore the summation of the debts at the date of the Admins' appointment (Club and Hotel) indicated that the debts were less than they had been two years previously as disclosed by the audited accounts. This could only have been the case if the club had been profitable over those two years and it plainly hadn't. Anderson's claim that the club made a small profit in 2017/18 was plausible, because of the Madine sale, but it was inevitable that it would be losing c.£100K per week in 2018/19 and would not be able to survive very long without new money coming from somewhere.

The effect of the Club Admin's stance would have been that Ken Anderson would have remained in debt to Fildraw for c.£7.5m without being able to rely on the security he had taken over the club's and hotel's assets. Plainly he was never going to allow this to happen hence imo the appointment of Administrators to Bolton Whites Hotel.

We can come back to the detail of the £7.5m and the various legal charges later. Better to deal with the underlying facts first.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:53 am

Gudnib wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:03 am
As I said, its a long story and its best to take it in small bites. To begin with, the Club Administrators were appointed by Fildraw's legal advisors and it seems to me implausible that the Admins were not fully advised and aware of the secured £10m still owing from the old Fildraw/Moonshift loans and the further advances made to Ken Anderson to facilitate the club's continuance in business.

The Admins deal with all this in unclear and unconvincing terms implying that they had insufficient knowledge of the composition of the rounded off figure of £17m Fildraw 'believes' it was owed or the £7.5m that Anderson 'believes' he was owed and that he in turn owed to Fildraw. They further implied that the c.£5million lent by Fildraw to KA to fund the settlement of the Blumarble debt did not create a debt to the person who paid off Blumarble. (i.e. Ken Anderson with Fildraw or ED's money).

Furthermore the summation of the debts at the date of the Admins' appointment (Club and Hotel) indicated that the debts were less than they had been two years previously as disclosed by the audited accounts. This could only have been the case if the club had been profitable over those two years and it plainly hadn't. Anderson's claim that the club made a small profit in 2017/18 was plausible, because of the Madine sale, but it was inevitable that it would be losing c.£100K per week in 2018/19 and would not be able to survive very long without new money coming from somewhere.

The effect of the Club Admin's stance would have been that Ken Anderson would have remained in debt to Fildraw for c.£7.5m without being able to rely on the security he had taken over the club's and hotel's assets. Plainly he was never going to allow this to happen hence imo the appointment of Administrators to Bolton Whites Hotel.

We can come back to the detail of the £7.5m and the various legal charges later. Better to deal with the underlying facts first.
I agree with all of this, I'm actually a bit curious as to what Anderson's plan actually was and why he didn't hit the admin button much earlier, other than perhaps he felt that ED was never a million miles away with another bailout loan. My consternation at Anderson was around the fact that he allowed us to continue to run-up debt - a fair chunk of which was to local businesses - that it was fairly clear we/he didn't really have a means to service. But probably a story for a different day.

I get the impression that maybe the book-keeping wasn't as good as it might have been and it's difficult to track who borrowed what from whom (and who might have somehow paid back some of it).

But, back to the charges. Moonshift had a number of charges against Burnden Leisure which given the debt wasn't serviceable, I generally viewed as "being in play". Coupled with a deed of priority, it was rather like there'd been a change of ownership but without anyone being able to pay for the new ownership which Moonshift held the majority of the collateral against.

Spin forwards to FV, and whatever the agreement was between FV and Fildraw (and I don't pretend to know what this might have been other than sketchy detail reported in the press), there was one charge still in favour of Fildraw as part of the takeover. Then another registered in 2020 against the stadium. Both now show as satisfied. But I assume these were against something that was owed by FV to Fildraw and that something had to change hands to remove the interests....

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:36 pm

Moonshift had a fixed and floating charge in respect of any monies owed to it by Burnden Leisure (BL), first created in 2002 and amended in 2003. This was security against all monies lent by Moonshift/Fildraw to BL that had eventually amounted to £185.5million. £170.3m of this was written off in 2015/16 leaving £15.2m on the books. Another £5.2m was written off in 2016/17 leaving a balance on the books of £10m.

Its a moot point as to whether Eddie expected to get any of this back or whether it was left on the books to discourage asset strippers but, in any event, when the Admins were appointed this £10million remained an outstanding liability and was accordingly included in the Admins statements. Another £50K had been added for some reason unknown to me, but that's neither here nor there.

So Fildraw was owed £10m by Burnden Leisure and c.£7.5m by Ken Anderson. c.£2.5m of this must have been advanced to allow wage commitments to be met at an earlier stage during the Anderson ownership but without any known security in favour of Fildraw/Moonshift or Anderson.

However when Eddie agreed to lend Anderson the money to pay off Blumarble in September 2018 both sides took steps to secure their position with new charges, numbered 22 and 23 on the BL file.

The protracted negotiations with FV eventually resulted in Fildraw accepting a deferred payment of £5.5m in settlement of the c.£17.5m owed by Anderson and BL. It was secured by charge number 4 on the FVWL file and settled in October 2020 in consideration of a payment of £2.75m plus bonuses contingent on future promotions. Its reported that £250K will become payable as a result of last season's promotion.

This arrangement allowed Eddie's widow to get on with the rest of her life without having to worry whether she would ever see any of the outstanding money.

I expect that the resultant £2.5m write down in this debt will be reflected as a gain in FVWL's next accounts. It'll make the P&L look better next time round.

Do I think that Ken Anderson believed that Eddie would be good for any more money? No, I don't. Anderson's strategy was to try to sell a Championship club as a going concern. Championship status was worth another £6m p.a. income and was only one step away from Premiership riches, albeit a very big step without big bucks. He failed.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:48 pm

Gudnib wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:36 pm
Moonshift had a fixed and floating charge in respect of any monies owed to it by Burnden Leisure (BL), first created in 2002 and amended in 2003. This was security against all monies lent by Moonshift/Fildraw to BL that had eventually amounted to £185.5million. £170.3m of this was written off in 2015/16 leaving £15.2m on the books. Another £5.2m was written off in 2016/17 leaving a balance on the books of £10m.

Its a moot point as to whether Eddie expected to get any of this back or whether it was left on the books to discourage asset strippers but, in any event, when the Admins were appointed this £10million remained an outstanding liability and was accordingly included in the Admins statements. Another £50K had been added for some reason unknown to me, but that's neither here nor there.

So Fildraw was owed £10m by Burnden Leisure and c.£7.5m by Ken Anderson. c.£2.5m of this must have been advanced to allow wage commitments to be met at an earlier stage during the Anderson ownership but without any known security in favour of Fildraw/Moonshift or Anderson.

However when Eddie agreed to lend Anderson the money to pay off Blumarble in September 2018 both sides took steps to secure their position with new charges, numbered 22 and 23 on the BL file.

The protracted negotiations with FV eventually resulted in Fildraw accepting a deferred payment of £5.5m in settlement of the c.£17.5m owed by Anderson and BL. It was secured by charge number 4 on the FVWL file and settled in October 2020 in consideration of a payment of £2.75m plus bonuses contingent on future promotions. Its reported that £250K will become payable as a result of last season's promotion.

This arrangement allowed Eddie's widow to get on with the rest of her life without having to worry whether she would ever see any of the outstanding money.

I expect that the resultant £2.5m write down in this debt will be reflected as a gain in FVWL's next accounts. It'll make the P&L look better next time round.

Do I think that Ken Anderson believed that Eddie would be good for any more money? No, I don't. Anderson's strategy was to try to sell a Championship club as a going concern. Championship status was worth another £6m p.a. income and was only one step away from Premiership riches, albeit a very big step without big bucks. He failed.
Anderson had an offer on the table following promotion. He turned it down. That was a fatal mistake. If you believe Phil Parkinson sweaty Ken had a taste for running a club and didn’t want to give it up even though it was clear his initial plan was to flip as soon as he stabilised it.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:15 pm

I genuinely struggle with that view, and I thought Anderson had said he couldn't afford it, some while before admin was triggered...It felt like he was trying to craft an "I'm a turn round guy" narrative, which I suspect would have given him some credibility with all the other Clubs in the sh×t and maybe led to other opportunities on the back of it. As Gudnib says, he failed. Not only that, he didn't pull the admin trigger, ED did. The offers he had were dismissed as not credible (outside of FV if I recall), then we had sideshow Bassini. It was a dark time.

I don't particularly have a problem with serviceable debt, I mean that's how we typically buy houses, but it doesn't need much of it to become unservicable to create a problem. As Gudnib says, it wasn't the ED headline figure that was a problem, I genuinely believe the push back to Prem year was probably the start of it, because we offered lots of unsustainable contracts in the event it didn't occur, at a point where I believe ED had made clear he was looking to the exit.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:06 pm

I don't see how its possible to say that turning down an offer is a mistake without knowing who the offeror is, what the terms of the offer are and what proof of funds have been provided.

If there was an offer after gaining promotion, how much was the offeror going to pay to Fildraw, Blumarble, PBP and Brett Warburton when and with what funds? Was the offer acceptable to all of them except Ken Anderson?

This sounds a bit like Terrence Rigby's buyers with 'a credible plan' that Eddie Davies inexplicably turned down. I'm afraid I'd have rather more faith in the ability of Eddie Davies to assess whether a business plan was credible or not.

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