CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

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CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon May 03, 2021 9:25 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 8:48 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 6:08 pm

We went to Cardiff with the management and players knowing the club was going to the wall if we didn’t win.
I'm calling bullshit on this claim.

We weren't and wouldn't have gone to the wall if we'd lost.

I can't imagine even a single player in that final line up, went into the game thinking the club would be no more if they didn't win.

The club had no money and no benefactor. It had overspent under Todd and come down. Sold off its stars but still had huge debts. It is on record in the book the club released during the premiership years iirc. Gartside and Allardyce both talk about it in there.

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Post by Harry Genshaw » Mon May 03, 2021 9:32 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:25 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 8:48 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 6:08 pm

We went to Cardiff with the management and players knowing the club was going to the wall if we didn’t win.
I'm calling bullshit on this claim.

We weren't and wouldn't have gone to the wall if we'd lost.

I can't imagine even a single player in that final line up, went into the game thinking the club would be no more if they didn't win.

The club had no money and no benefactor. It had overspent under Todd and come down. Sold off its stars but still had huge debts. It is on record in the book the club released during the premiership years iirc. Gartside and Allardyce both talk about it in there.
Allardyce and PG trying to romanticise history. Yes, the club were skint but about to go to the wall? Nah, not having it. I've heard the same rubbish from Newcastle pre Keegan, Chelsea after Walkers winner at Burnden. Maidstone and Bury in the last 50 years should demonstrate actually how difficult it is, or was, to go to the wall.
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Post by Worthy4England » Tue May 04, 2021 9:26 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:32 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:25 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 8:48 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 6:08 pm

We went to Cardiff with the management and players knowing the club was going to the wall if we didn’t win.
I'm calling bullshit on this claim.

We weren't and wouldn't have gone to the wall if we'd lost.

I can't imagine even a single player in that final line up, went into the game thinking the club would be no more if they didn't win.

The club had no money and no benefactor. It had overspent under Todd and come down. Sold off its stars but still had huge debts. It is on record in the book the club released during the premiership years iirc. Gartside and Allardyce both talk about it in there.
Allardyce and PG trying to romanticise history. Yes, the club were skint but about to go to the wall? Nah, not having it. I've heard the same rubbish from Newcastle pre Keegan, Chelsea after Walkers winner at Burnden. Maidstone and Bury in the last 50 years should demonstrate actually how difficult it is, or was, to go to the wall.
Dunno, how close to the wall we actually were. The numbers were certainly starting to get scary. We had £33m of debt, and £15m of that had become payable within a 12 month timeframe. But there were also notes in the account saying this was a worrying position and we needed to move short term --> long term debt, and the Board believed it was "essential that we had" "sustained success in the Premier League."

Fortunately, of course, ED had been co-opted to the Board by this point and then became the debt management strategy... (a bit of story some people so often miss, when they want to blame him for the meltdown the other end of his tenure - you know who you are)

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Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue May 04, 2021 9:40 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:26 am
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:32 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:25 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 8:48 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 6:08 pm

We went to Cardiff with the management and players knowing the club was going to the wall if we didn’t win.
I'm calling bullshit on this claim.

We weren't and wouldn't have gone to the wall if we'd lost.

I can't imagine even a single player in that final line up, went into the game thinking the club would be no more if they didn't win.

The club had no money and no benefactor. It had overspent under Todd and come down. Sold off its stars but still had huge debts. It is on record in the book the club released during the premiership years iirc. Gartside and Allardyce both talk about it in there.
Allardyce and PG trying to romanticise history. Yes, the club were skint but about to go to the wall? Nah, not having it. I've heard the same rubbish from Newcastle pre Keegan, Chelsea after Walkers winner at Burnden. Maidstone and Bury in the last 50 years should demonstrate actually how difficult it is, or was, to go to the wall.
Dunno, how close to the wall we actually were. The numbers were certainly starting to get scary. We had £33m of debt, and £15m of that had become payable within a 12 month timeframe. But there were also notes in the account saying this was a worrying position and we needed to move short term --> long term debt, and the Board believed it was "essential that we had" "sustained success in the Premier League."

Fortunately, of course, ED had been co-opted to the Board by this point and then became the debt management strategy... (a bit of story some people so often miss, when they want to blame him for the meltdown the other end of his tenure - you know who you are)
ED was on the board in pre 2000 iirc but was doing some stuff on a 'commercial basis' rather than covering our debts at the time.

He became majority shareholder in 2003 - I doubt he'd have done so were we not a premiership side then. Its all history now but I do think fundamentally were we not promoted that we'd likely have ended up in administration. I'm sure subsequently Gartside said that at the point of the play off final there was no real chance of ED investing significant money in although PG secretly was working on persuading him to in time.

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Post by Worthy4England » Tue May 04, 2021 10:25 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:40 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:26 am
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:32 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:25 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 8:48 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 6:08 pm

We went to Cardiff with the management and players knowing the club was going to the wall if we didn’t win.
I'm calling bullshit on this claim.

We weren't and wouldn't have gone to the wall if we'd lost.

I can't imagine even a single player in that final line up, went into the game thinking the club would be no more if they didn't win.

The club had no money and no benefactor. It had overspent under Todd and come down. Sold off its stars but still had huge debts. It is on record in the book the club released during the premiership years iirc. Gartside and Allardyce both talk about it in there.
Allardyce and PG trying to romanticise history. Yes, the club were skint but about to go to the wall? Nah, not having it. I've heard the same rubbish from Newcastle pre Keegan, Chelsea after Walkers winner at Burnden. Maidstone and Bury in the last 50 years should demonstrate actually how difficult it is, or was, to go to the wall.
Dunno, how close to the wall we actually were. The numbers were certainly starting to get scary. We had £33m of debt, and £15m of that had become payable within a 12 month timeframe. But there were also notes in the account saying this was a worrying position and we needed to move short term --> long term debt, and the Board believed it was "essential that we had" "sustained success in the Premier League."

Fortunately, of course, ED had been co-opted to the Board by this point and then became the debt management strategy... (a bit of story some people so often miss, when they want to blame him for the meltdown the other end of his tenure - you know who you are)
ED was on the board in pre 2000 iirc but was doing some stuff on a 'commercial basis' rather than covering our debts at the time.

He became majority shareholder in 2003 - I doubt he'd have done so were we not a premiership side then. Its all history now but I do think fundamentally were we not promoted that we'd likely have ended up in administration. I'm sure subsequently Gartside said that at the point of the play off final there was no real chance of ED investing significant money in although PG secretly was working on persuading him to in time.
He was putting cash in through a variety of mechanisms, including loans and share ownership (which were on a much better terms than we were getting in the market, both on interest rates and payment periods...). Whilst he didn't own outright until 2003, he'd been building up his shareholding prior to that, given we were struggling to get commercial loans from elsewhere. The deed that fixed the first formal floating charge form Moonshift was 2002, for example and he already had over 50% of the shareholding at that point.

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Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue May 04, 2021 10:55 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 10:25 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:40 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:26 am
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:32 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:25 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 8:48 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 6:08 pm

We went to Cardiff with the management and players knowing the club was going to the wall if we didn’t win.
I'm calling bullshit on this claim.

We weren't and wouldn't have gone to the wall if we'd lost.

I can't imagine even a single player in that final line up, went into the game thinking the club would be no more if they didn't win.

The club had no money and no benefactor. It had overspent under Todd and come down. Sold off its stars but still had huge debts. It is on record in the book the club released during the premiership years iirc. Gartside and Allardyce both talk about it in there.
Allardyce and PG trying to romanticise history. Yes, the club were skint but about to go to the wall? Nah, not having it. I've heard the same rubbish from Newcastle pre Keegan, Chelsea after Walkers winner at Burnden. Maidstone and Bury in the last 50 years should demonstrate actually how difficult it is, or was, to go to the wall.
Dunno, how close to the wall we actually were. The numbers were certainly starting to get scary. We had £33m of debt, and £15m of that had become payable within a 12 month timeframe. But there were also notes in the account saying this was a worrying position and we needed to move short term --> long term debt, and the Board believed it was "essential that we had" "sustained success in the Premier League."

Fortunately, of course, ED had been co-opted to the Board by this point and then became the debt management strategy... (a bit of story some people so often miss, when they want to blame him for the meltdown the other end of his tenure - you know who you are)
ED was on the board in pre 2000 iirc but was doing some stuff on a 'commercial basis' rather than covering our debts at the time.

He became majority shareholder in 2003 - I doubt he'd have done so were we not a premiership side then. Its all history now but I do think fundamentally were we not promoted that we'd likely have ended up in administration. I'm sure subsequently Gartside said that at the point of the play off final there was no real chance of ED investing significant money in although PG secretly was working on persuading him to in time.
He was putting cash in through a variety of mechanisms, including loans and share ownership (which were on a much better terms than we were getting in the market, both on interest rates and payment periods...). Whilst he didn't own outright until 2003, he'd been building up his shareholding prior to that, given we were struggling to get commercial loans from elsewhere. The deed that fixed the first formal floating charge form Moonshift was 2002, for example and he already had over 50% of the shareholding at that point.
Wasn't he initially only funding the academy or some training ground redevelopment. Or perhaps that was the official line? I'm sure I remember Garty saying something along those lines - that funding was strictly limited to of field stuff...

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Post by Worthy4England » Tue May 04, 2021 11:04 am

This is probably one for a different thread...maybe if Tango is around he could move it? :-)

Buying 50% of the shares wouldn't restrict what the funding could be used for.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by TANGODANCER » Tue May 04, 2021 4:18 pm

Please use the Match thread for the Crawley game.
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Tue May 04, 2021 4:26 pm

Thanks TD. Apols.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by officer_dibble » Tue May 04, 2021 9:39 pm

Any word on the Kamani appearance over the weekend?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed May 05, 2021 9:49 am

In the current day Nick Lucock is now a director of the club and hotel.

He was I think listed on the future loan note during the takeover - is that right?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Wed May 05, 2021 10:49 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 9:49 am
In the current day Nick Lucock is now a director of the club and hotel.

He was I think listed on the future loan note during the takeover - is that right?
He was certainly "in and around" the names mentioned at take-over time, and was party to the £20m initial charge that covered a host of parties. There's certainly something going on in the background, because the two charges relating to Fildraw (which I think we figured included the largest single charge) are showing as settled, but there are many legal entities now, so difficult to work out who owns what. As it happens, we're coming round to Account filing date (next month I think), which might actually shed some light on the proceedings.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed May 05, 2021 10:55 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:49 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 9:49 am
In the current day Nick Lucock is now a director of the club and hotel.

He was I think listed on the future loan note during the takeover - is that right?
He was certainly "in and around" the names mentioned at take-over time, and was party to the £20m initial charge that covered a host of parties. There's certainly something going on in the background, because the two charges relating to Fildraw (which I think we figured included the largest single charge) are showing as settled, but there are many legal entities now, so difficult to work out who owns what. As it happens, we're coming round to Account filing date (next month I think), which might actually shed some light on the proceedings.
And perhaps irrelevant but Boohoo seem to have done ok this year after their financial results were revealed. Pre-tax profit of £120 odd million. Up more than a third on last year.

I guess given they've been aggressively expanding it would be interesting to see what is in the works with the club. I know Brittan was talking to Kamani's pre-completion of takeover so I do wonder if this is part of the 'big plan' we heard about at the time. Rather than a direct investment in the club which to me doesn't make sense.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Wed May 05, 2021 12:13 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:55 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:49 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 9:49 am
In the current day Nick Lucock is now a director of the club and hotel.

He was I think listed on the future loan note during the takeover - is that right?
He was certainly "in and around" the names mentioned at take-over time, and was party to the £20m initial charge that covered a host of parties. There's certainly something going on in the background, because the two charges relating to Fildraw (which I think we figured included the largest single charge) are showing as settled, but there are many legal entities now, so difficult to work out who owns what. As it happens, we're coming round to Account filing date (next month I think), which might actually shed some light on the proceedings.
And perhaps irrelevant but Boohoo seem to have done ok this year after their financial results were revealed. Pre-tax profit of £120 odd million. Up more than a third on last year.

I guess given they've been aggressively expanding it would be interesting to see what is in the works with the club. I know Brittan was talking to Kamani's pre-completion of takeover so I do wonder if this is part of the 'big plan' we heard about at the time. Rather than a direct investment in the club which to me doesn't make sense.
Think I mentioned on a different thread. At the time Adam Kamani posted that they had enquired about the hotel, to the Hotel Admins but weren't interested in football club. Guess we'll have to see what develops...

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Wed May 05, 2021 2:24 pm

Done a bit of digging. Football Ventures (Whites) Ltd seem to be the holding company for FWVL Football Ltd and FVWL Hotel Ltd. It has >75% controlling interest. The current shareholding given in the Confirmation Statement on 14 Feb 2021 has Sharon down for 45% - slightly reduced from previous when she was majority shareholder, Michael James on 18%, Nick Luckock on 9%, and mysteriously Football Ventures (Whites) Ltd down for 27%....I wonder if that is a "gap" for another fairly major shareholder...

As an aside, I think we might also have paid Fildraw (ED's Trust) off, too...

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed May 05, 2021 2:59 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:24 pm
Done a bit of digging. Football Ventures (Whites) Ltd seem to be the holding company for FWVL Football Ltd and FVWL Hotel Ltd. It has >75% controlling interest. The current shareholding given in the Confirmation Statement on 14 Feb 2021 has Sharon down for 45% - slightly reduced from previous when she was majority shareholder, Michael James on 18%, Nick Luckock on 9%, and mysteriously Football Ventures (Whites) Ltd down for 27%....I wonder if that is a "gap" for another fairly major shareholder...

As an aside, I think we might also have paid Fildraw (ED's Trust) off, too...
Yeah was reported not that long ago I think via Marc Iles - or at least reached agreement for it?

The share structure is interesting though I wonder if the 27% merely reflects the wider investements behind SB and MJ? I think there were others putting money in but not wanting direct involvement.

Though could be as you say someone is coming in at that equity....

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Re: Crawl over the finish line (please!) sat 8/5 @3pm on the Sky box

Post by boltonboris » Wed May 05, 2021 4:40 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:21 pm
boltonboris wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:49 pm
Sorry if it's been mentioned - I've not read through the thread, but apparently each club are getting £50k for this match being televised - I'd bet my house on it, that we'd have double that on iFollow subs... Bit of a financial kick in the teeth for us!
On the face of it, absolutely. However, do we know what percentage the club receives from every Tenner paid to iFollow?
The Home team get the first 500 @ £8.54 per subscription and then the away team get £8.54 for every subscription thereafter

You obviously don't have to be a rocket surgeon to note that the EFL then make £1.46 for every iFollow subscription that is bought - Not a bad sum for the amount of games and subscribers! Not sure on the actual total throughout the divisions

(They agreed with clubs not to take the £1.46 cut for Home Fans with season tickets - Nice of 'em!)
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Re: Crawl over the finish line (please!) sat 8/5 @3pm on the Sky box

Post by boltonboris » Wed May 05, 2021 4:41 pm

(The EFL keep the advertising revenue to themselves from Papa John's and EA Sports etc and don't give the teams a cut)
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Wed May 05, 2021 4:43 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:59 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:24 pm
Done a bit of digging. Football Ventures (Whites) Ltd seem to be the holding company for FWVL Football Ltd and FVWL Hotel Ltd. It has >75% controlling interest. The current shareholding given in the Confirmation Statement on 14 Feb 2021 has Sharon down for 45% - slightly reduced from previous when she was majority shareholder, Michael James on 18%, Nick Luckock on 9%, and mysteriously Football Ventures (Whites) Ltd down for 27%....I wonder if that is a "gap" for another fairly major shareholder...

As an aside, I think we might also have paid Fildraw (ED's Trust) off, too...
Yeah was reported not that long ago I think via Marc Iles - or at least reached agreement for it?

The share structure is interesting though I wonder if the 27% merely reflects the wider investements behind SB and MJ? I think there were others putting money in but not wanting direct involvement.

Though could be as you say someone is coming in at that equity....
Don't think it represents the wider investments....

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Re: Crawl over the finish line (please!) sat 8/5 @3pm on the Sky box

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed May 05, 2021 5:29 pm

boltonboris wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:40 pm
The Home team get the first 500 @ £8.54 per subscription and then the away team get £8.54 for every subscription thereafter
So if (as is hardly a ludicrous suggestion given the buildup) we got 20,000 viewers on Saturday, we earned £4,270 (500 x £8.54) and Exeter earned £166,530 (19,500 x £8.54)? You sure?

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