CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

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Worthy4England
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:15 am

Gudnib wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:11 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:31 pm
I'm not really interested in what Conn/Iles wrote or not. The only people who'll actually know are those that were involved :-)
That is, I fear, where we would part company. Messrs Conn and Iles are part of the story and a significant part too imo. I'm interested in what they have to say. I'm interested in distinguishing fact from fiction, the whole truth from the half-truth, the informed or intelligent observation from the just plain daft.

Two of the main witnesses sadly are no longer with us, seemingly having been subject to significant stress in the latter years of their shortened lifespans. Others that remain may well feel they are obliged to maintain the confidentiality of the events they have witnessed. So it is left to those who weren't witnesses but are interested to try to distinguish between the credible and the incredible if they want to try to make sense of it all. Its not everyone's cup of tea but it is more engrossing than being brainwashed by today's media.
Without witnesses, there's bound to be a lot of conjecture. Some of it informed, plenty of it less so. When I read the bit about significant stress and shortened lifespan, I could conceive both being at least possibilities, if not probabilities, but I don't actually know and the second bit (shortened lifespan) is really difficult to prove :-) So that's already spinning a particular way....as with what Iles and Conn write, I'll draw my own conclusions as I'm sure others shall.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:49 am

Without witnesses, there's bound to be a lot of conjecture. Some of it informed, plenty of it less so. When I read the bit about significant stress and shortened lifespan, I could conceive both being at least possibilities, if not probabilities, but I don't actually know and the second bit (shortened lifespan) is really difficult to prove :-) So that's already spinning a particular way....as with what Iles and Conn write, I'll draw my own conclusions as I'm sure others shall.
[/quote]

That's what you would call 'spinning', is it? Ah well better move on no-one really wants to think about any of this, do they? Actually there weren't too many who made the effort to attend ED's Memorial Service either. No Sam Allardyce, Ken Anderson, Dean Holdsworth or any representative of the Supporters Trust that I could see.

Speaking of Holdsworth, did you know that he'd recently been awarded an honorary degree by the University of Bolton? I can't help thinking that that place must be run by the Bonkers Brigade but did you ever, by chance, take a look at the Sports Shield companies and figure out where its money might have come from or how Terrence Rigby concluded that Holdsworth had spent the best part of a million quid on legal fees? I'm still scratching my head on this one.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:58 am

And for the benefit of anyone interested, here's KA response to the bid from Shabbir Khilji in 2017.

https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2017/august ... chairman7/

Ten days before this (18 August 2017), Dean Holdsworth filed accounts at Companies House claiming that Sports Shield BWFC Ltd was 'dormant'. In other words, it didn't owe anything to anybody.

On 21 August 2017 the Companies Court ordered the winding up of Sports Shield BWFC Ltd on the petition of Blumarble Capital Ltd.

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:14 am

I think from memory, as it's a while ago, looking at the Sports Shield Accounts, the conclusion was, the money wasn't coming from there. It was pretty much always badged as the Sports Shield Consortium, which didn't mention Inner Circle/Anderson as I recall, until every other bugger had dropped out of it. Didn't the million come from the Anderson/Holdsworth fall out, detailed in one of the Annual Reports as being the convenient difference between what was put into the Club as a result of Blumarble (£4m) vs what was borrowed from Blumarble (£5m)? (Not suggesting that £1m was/would have been appropriate)

At this point, it's all pretty murky, with a lot of "he said, she said". The 2016 Accounts - the auditors report - points to not much evidence of a plan to address indebtedness.

We know that despite the (£7.5m) headline, the Club was sold to Sports Shield for £1. There were still significant debt related to charges, which I doubt had any means of being paid, the Auditors didn't really think there was a plan to pay back any of the debt, and they don't really appear to have had much more than a payday loan behind them. If memory serves, the debts related to non-payment of wages and tax bills were paid by MJ/ED, rather than Anderson.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:10 am

Its all clear as mud, isn't it? Its clear as mud because of the hopelessness of those commentating on it AT LENGTH at the time and who still pretend they grasped it. They'd about as much chance of grasping it as Lily's husband, Walter, from Nearest and Dearest.

And no it wasn't sold to Sports Shield for £1. Half of it was sold to Sports Shield BWFC Ltd (SSBWFC) and the other half to Inner Circle Investments Ltd for a total of £1. Holdsworth claimed, in the 'dormant' accounts of SSBWFC, that it owned nowt and owed nowt, which plainly was, how should I put it, incorrect.

Sports Shield Ltd was a different newly-formed Holdsworth company that had large accumulations of cash from what it describes as 'Management consultancy activities' followed by a large dis-accumulation of cash. It was liquidated in June this year.

Where's Kieran Maguire when you need him?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:47 am

It is as clear as mud. But I'm not convinced it's as clear as much because of those commentating on it. If no one had said anything in relation to it, it would still be clear as mud from what I saw in front of us at the time. (Even Holdsworth and Anderson couldn't agree who owed which to whom, albeit they eventually found a compromise)...Agree SS didn't own the full £1's worth, but they seemed to be having trouble with even that amount, determining who had contributed what before eventually "agreeing" that IC had put 57p in?

I'm also not convinced Sports Shield Ltd, had large accumulations of cash - in "I want to buy a football club" terms, wasn't it in the 100,000's or did I dream that bit?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:31 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:47 am
It is as clear as mud. But I'm not convinced it's as clear as much because of those commentating on it. If no one had said anything in relation to it, it would still be clear as mud from what I saw in front of us at the time. (Even Holdsworth and Anderson couldn't agree who owed which to whom, albeit they eventually found a compromise)...Agree SS didn't own the full £1's worth, but they seemed to be having trouble with even that amount, determining who had contributed what before eventually "agreeing" that IC had put 57p in?

I'm also not convinced Sports Shield Ltd, had large accumulations of cash - in "I want to buy a football club" terms, wasn't it in the 100,000's or did I dream that bit?
Maybe you haven't quite grasped it. The question is where did the accumulations of cash come from after he'd acquired 47% of BWFC and spent, according to Terrence Rigby, the best part of a million quid on legal fees?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Prufrock » Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:38 pm

There's something almost admirable about someone who has only just figured out how the quote button works continuing to be so condescending
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:44 pm

Gudnib wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:31 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:47 am
It is as clear as mud. But I'm not convinced it's as clear as much because of those commentating on it. If no one had said anything in relation to it, it would still be clear as mud from what I saw in front of us at the time. (Even Holdsworth and Anderson couldn't agree who owed which to whom, albeit they eventually found a compromise)...Agree SS didn't own the full £1's worth, but they seemed to be having trouble with even that amount, determining who had contributed what before eventually "agreeing" that IC had put 57p in?

I'm also not convinced Sports Shield Ltd, had large accumulations of cash - in "I want to buy a football club" terms, wasn't it in the 100,000's or did I dream that bit?
Maybe you haven't quite grasped it. The question is where did the accumulations of cash come from after he'd acquired 47% of BWFC and spent, according to Terrence Rigby, the best part of a million quid on legal fees?
Which accumulations of cash are you referring to?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:00 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:44 pm
Gudnib wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:31 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:47 am
It is as clear as mud. But I'm not convinced it's as clear as much because of those commentating on it. If no one had said anything in relation to it, it would still be clear as mud from what I saw in front of us at the time. (Even Holdsworth and Anderson couldn't agree who owed which to whom, albeit they eventually found a compromise)...Agree SS didn't own the full £1's worth, but they seemed to be having trouble with even that amount, determining who had contributed what before eventually "agreeing" that IC had put 57p in?

I'm also not convinced Sports Shield Ltd, had large accumulations of cash - in "I want to buy a football club" terms, wasn't it in the 100,000's or did I dream that bit?
Maybe you haven't quite grasped it. The question is where did the accumulations of cash come from after he'd acquired 47% of BWFC and spent, according to Terrence Rigby, the best part of a million quid on legal fees?
Which accumulations of cash are you referring to?
Are you referring to the unsecured creditors @ ~£8m?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Harry Genshaw » Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:11 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:38 pm
There's something almost admirable about someone who has only just figured out how the quote button works continuing to be so condescending
:lol: :pray:
"Get your feet off the furniture you Oxbridge tw*t. You're not on a feckin punt now you know"

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:07 am

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:38 pm
There's something almost admirable about someone who has only just figured out how the quote button works continuing to be so condescending
How old are you? Don't you think its time you grew up a bit, even if it is only a bit?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:54 am

Maybe you haven't quite grasped it. The question is where did the accumulations of cash come from after he'd acquired 47% of BWFC and spent, according to Terrence Rigby, the best part of a million quid on legal fees?
[/quote]
Which accumulations of cash are you referring to?
[/quote]
Are you referring to the unsecured creditors @ ~£8m?
[/quote]

No that isn't the point I was making but it is interesting that the Supporters Trust and BN never grasped (or never admitted) how much Holdsworth's involvement had cost BWFC.

For the benefit of those who don't know Blumarble claimed, in the liquidation of SSBWFC, that SSBWFC owed it £8.3m in capital, interest and other costs and charges.

Blumarble's debt was not secured against SSBWFC but against the assets of BWFC. But it was only secured against BWFC to a limit of £5m even if it was able to prove that the security, signed only by Dean Holdsworth, was legally enforceable.

SSBWFC was a £1 company and the debt owed to Blumarble was repayable by SSBWFC before the end of March 2016. Its a moot point how much Ken Anderson knew about the arrangements Holdsworth had made with Blumarble but the loan could not be repaid and the £4m that the club received was needed to ensure the club's survival.

Anderson urgently needed to take control of the situation. Firstly he needed a new manager for the team, an experienced and capable CEO and the ability to make all the important decisions to help the club through the treacherous waters it was in, unhindered by his fellow director. In short he needed control of the boardroom.

There followed a lengthy battle with Holdsworth and his lawyers which Anderson eventually won but at significant cost to the club. There also followed lengthy negotiations with Blumarble which crucially enabled the club to survive and have use of the money until August 2018 when ED was persuaded to step in to provide the money to pay off the debt. This provided Anderson with a small amount of breathing space to find a new owner/investor but it was a small amount and it floundered just as ED's many attempts had floundered in the past.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:42 am

The Blumarble loan was widely known and reported by the papers and discussed at length across the internet. To suggest Anderson was or might be unaware is frankly nonsense. Secondly we know Holdsworths contribution came from the BM high interest loan secured against the club and that even when he knew Ken’s only option was to ask ED to pay it. But on purchasing the club what money did KA bring to the table? This is the issue - you got the club for £1 on the basis you serviced the debts. Holdswowrths disastrous plan we know. But Ken clearly had to offer something yet when it came to produce the money never materialised…I guess over his time here we found out that was his MO.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:45 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:42 am
The Blumarble loan was widely known and reported by the papers and discussed at length across the internet. To suggest Anderson was or might be unaware is frankly nonsense. Secondly we know Holdsworths contribution came from the BM high interest loan secured against the club and that even when he knew Ken’s only option was to ask ED to pay it. But on purchasing the club what money did KA bring to the table? This is the issue - you got the club for £1 on the basis you serviced the debts. Holdswowrths disastrous plan we know. But Ken clearly had to offer something yet when it came to produce the money never materialised…I guess over his time here we found out that was his MO.
Don't be daft. Of course he knew about the loan but did he know the exact terms of it? Did he know how quickly it had to be repaid. Did he know what plans Holdsworth had to repay it? Did he know whose Holdsworth's supposed partner was. Did he know when he pulled out, allegedly?

He was hardly naive and never likely to rely on Holdsworth's word but If he knew these things, which he may well have done, he would also have known that the whole thing was about to unravel in no time at all and he would have to take control.

As for Anderson putting in money, don't be daft again. Anderson was never going to put any of his money in even if he had the money to start with. He's not stark staring bonkers and that wasn't the deal. The deal was that he would use his expertise to try to save the club and find the new owner ED had found it impossible to do and, of course, profit from the sale.
Last edited by Gudnib on Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:08 am

Gudnib, we knew what you posted in relation to the Blumarble loan, as Insano says (albeit wouldn't have known the £8.3m total as it hadn't been published when we discussed it). It was somewhere discussed on a previous thread, including the point it was secured against Club assets and the ensuing spat between DH and KA. You seem to be back to saying BN and ST didn't grasp that, but I don't really care as I rarely read one and am not a member of the other. I don't need to disprove whatever it is they're saying because I'm not listening in the first place. As to whether KA knew about it, difficult to assess. I think he would have known there was an amount of money DH could get to, somewhere around the 4/5m. I'm less certain that he would have known where from, or its terms. Certainly the accounts hint at the interest rate maybe being news along with when payment(s) were due.

But if that's not the point, you were trying to make anyhow, what is? Surely, I might not have grasped it. That has a number of possibilities as to why, one being my capability to grasp it or the other being your capability to explain what you're alluding to.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:42 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:08 am
Gudnib, we knew what you posted in relation to the Blumarble loan, as Insano says (albeit wouldn't have known the £8.3m total as it hadn't been published when we discussed it). It was somewhere discussed on a previous thread, including the point it was secured against Club assets and the ensuing spat between DH and KA. You seem to be back to saying BN and ST didn't grasp that, but I don't really care as I rarely read one and am not a member of the other. I don't need to disprove whatever it is they're saying because I'm not listening in the first place. As to whether KA knew about it, difficult to assess. I think he would have known there was an amount of money DH could get to, somewhere around the 4/5m. I'm less certain that he would have known where from, or its terms. Certainly the accounts hint at the interest rate maybe being news along with when payment(s) were due.

But if that's not the point, you were trying to make anyhow, what is? Surely, I might not have grasped it. That has a number of possibilities as to why, one being my capability to grasp it or the other being your capability to explain what you're alluding to.
The point about the BN and the ST is that they are significant 'influencers' and they have used their influence to protray Dean Holdsworth as the poor innocent victim of the devious and dastardly Ken Anderson who had pocketed £525K of the club's funds. But, of course, he didn't pocket £525K at all but spent £250K on purchasing BL shares from Holdsworth, another £150K to prevent Blumarble foreclosing on the club and another £77K on acquiring other shares of no value, in all probability shares in SSBWFC.

Then, of course, there was Holdsworth's £250k p.a. salary, his compensation for loss of office and his unquantified legal fees.

Anyway I was trying to point you to the false statement that SSBWFC was a 'dormant' company filed three days before the Companies Court ordered it to be wound up on account of the amounts it owed to Blumarble and the large accumulation in cash in the accounts of Sport Shield Ltd. £312k at 31 March 2017.

So if, as claimed by Terrence Rigby, Dean Holdsworth spent the best part of a million quid on legal fees, where did that money come from and how was it that Sports Shield Ltd, a recently formed one-man £100 company, still had £312K in the bank.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:15 am

Yeah - ok - I guess we just viewed "large accumulations" differently :-) £312k is a decent sum, but not in terms of buying/selling football clubs. I understand your point about BN and ST, I just choose to ignore most of what they say. As to the main point, I don't think either of the participants in the Sports Shield takeover come out with much credit (that's me using "this is a public forum understatement"), for me. It's very difficult from the Accounts to work out who if anyone pocketed what, where from and when. The questions you're raising are legitimate, if anyone actually wants to go down that route, personally, I think I'm just ready to move on. I'm certainly not too interested in what TR has to say. :-)

Edit: In amongst all this, there have been a couple of people, who time and again stepped in with money, the main one being ED.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:38 am

Seems as good a thread as any - RL World Cup postponed, a blow to our finances as we were supposed to host England-France.

There may be insurance against it but I doubt it'll cover the loss of matchday revenues (burgers, carp parks etc)

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:06 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:15 am
Yeah - ok - I guess we just viewed "large accumulations" differently :-) £312k is a decent sum, but not in terms of buying/selling football clubs. I understand your point about BN and ST, I just choose to ignore most of what they say. As to the main point, I don't think either of the participants in the Sports Shield takeover come out with much credit (that's me using "this is a public forum understatement"), for me. It's very difficult from the Accounts to work out who if anyone pocketed what, where from and when. The questions you're raising are legitimate, if anyone actually wants to go down that route, personally, I think I'm just ready to move on. I'm certainly not too interested in what TR has to say. :-)

Edit: In amongst all this, there have been a couple of people, who time and again stepped in with money, the main one being ED.
As I said 'following the money' may not be everyone's cup of tea but it does have fascinating twists and turns for those who may be interested.

You are correct in that ED bailed the club out time after time. He was first approached by Phil Gartside at an FA Cup tie at Old Trafford in 1991 but it was not until 1999 that Eddie first 'invested'. Eddie had been the guest of the Rags chairman, Sir Roland Smith, an avid collector of chairmanships one of which was Strix where Eddie made his fortune.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2003/n ... reducation

Strix had a box at the Reebok and held at least one board meeting at the ground, Sir Roland commenting on how nice the chairman's suite was and on the absence of silverware.

Anyway it seems that the ST has now been accepted by FV as the voice of the supporters through a Memorandum of Understanding signed this week. MOU's are often not worth the paper they are written on but I can't say that I'm at all impressed by this latest development.

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