CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

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Harry Genshaw
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:55 pm

Gudnib wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:06 pm
I'm afraid I'd have rather more faith in the ability of Eddie Davies to assess whether a business plan was credible or not.
I wouldn't. Not based on his exit strategy at BWFC.
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:03 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:15 pm
I genuinely struggle with that view, and I thought Anderson had said he couldn't afford it, some while before admin was triggered...It felt like he was trying to craft an "I'm a turn round guy" narrative, which I suspect would have given him some credibility with all the other Clubs in the sh×t and maybe led to other opportunities on the back of it. As Gudnib says, he failed. Not only that, he didn't pull the admin trigger, ED did. The offers he had were dismissed as not credible (outside of FV if I recall), then we had sideshow Bassini. It was a dark time.

I don't particularly have a problem with serviceable debt, I mean that's how we typically buy houses, but it doesn't need much of it to become unservicable to create a problem. As Gudnib says, it wasn't the ED headline figure that was a problem, I genuinely believe the push back to Prem year was probably the start of it, because we offered lots of unsustainable contracts in the event it didn't occur, at a point where I believe ED had made clear he was looking to the exit.
All I can say is, whilst agreeing wholeheartedly with the post from GudniB in that you never know how credible these offers are, is that I was told by a number of people who I trust that there was an offer on the table after promotion from credible people and Ken was close to selling but had a taste for it and chose not to. Of course it could easily be that the offer wasn’t so credible but we will never know.

The plan had to be to sell yet he seemed to run the club more and more recklessly over time.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:11 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:55 pm
Gudnib wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:06 pm
I'm afraid I'd have rather more faith in the ability of Eddie Davies to assess whether a business plan was credible or not.
I wouldn't. Not based on his exit strategy at BWFC.
Are you a qualified accountant and self-made multi-millionaire with worldwide business interests and a string of Queens Awards for industry, H? Would you care to explain to us all exactly what you would have done and when seeing as you are, in your own estimation, something of an authority on business plans and exit strategies?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:59 pm

Gudnib wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:11 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:55 pm
Gudnib wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:06 pm
I'm afraid I'd have rather more faith in the ability of Eddie Davies to assess whether a business plan was credible or not.
I wouldn't. Not based on his exit strategy at BWFC.
Are you a qualified accountant and self-made multi-millionaire with worldwide business interests and a string of Queens Awards for industry, H? Would you care to explain to us all exactly what you would have done and when seeing as you are, in your own estimation, something of an authority on business plans and exit strategies?
I know nothing of any of it. I do know my football history though. Any herbert could have explained that BWFC had a limited shelf life in the PL and that the untold riches would only be coming in for a short period.

Eddie's undoubted largesse paved the way for everything we enjoyed. He's culpable though for the shitstorm that followed because of a failure to make hay while the sun shone and ensuring there were safety measures in place, when the rains came.
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:26 am

You don't have to admit that you know nothing of it, H. Anyone who could think that Marc Iles made a simple mistake that anyone might make hasn't even begun to understand the financial facts of life of owning a football club like Bolton Wanderers.

And if Iles hadn't a clue ten years into the job, will he ever have a clue? I don't think he will. Some folk are like that. In fact quite a lot of folk are like that .

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:59 am

So here a question for the group - now that figures are available (chiefly), how close were we to actually going / being allowed to go out of business?
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:05 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:59 am
So here a question for the group - now that figures are available (chiefly), how close were we to actually going / being allowed to go out of business?
My view is that nobody can really answer that at any of the danger points without knowing whether there was a viable takeover possible OR people in the background like Mike James who were prepared to keep it going till there was. At point of admin we were losing money didn’t have easily sellable assets other than a few players and of course even if we did to remain a league club had to be able to field a team. You can let others argue about whether there was a realistic bid beyond FV but in my view from what I know there was not.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:40 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:05 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:59 am
So here a question for the group - now that figures are available (chiefly), how close were we to actually going / being allowed to go out of business?
My view is that nobody can really answer that at any of the danger points without knowing whether there was a viable takeover possible OR people in the background like Mike James who were prepared to keep it going till there was. At point of admin we were losing money didn’t have easily sellable assets other than a few players and of course even if we did to remain a league club had to be able to field a team. You can let others argue about whether there was a realistic bid beyond FV but in my view from what I know there was not.
Well, we get some clues from the Admin Report....

This relates to the weekend before the sale completed...

"Having now resolved what was thought to be the final hurdle in the imminent sale....yadda yadda...the resultant delay and terms of the renegotiation were such that the sale looked almost certain to collapse...the Joint Administrators made plans to cease trading and dismiss all staff"

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:45 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:40 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:05 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:59 am
So here a question for the group - now that figures are available (chiefly), how close were we to actually going / being allowed to go out of business?
My view is that nobody can really answer that at any of the danger points without knowing whether there was a viable takeover possible OR people in the background like Mike James who were prepared to keep it going till there was. At point of admin we were losing money didn’t have easily sellable assets other than a few players and of course even if we did to remain a league club had to be able to field a team. You can let others argue about whether there was a realistic bid beyond FV but in my view from what I know there was not.
Well, we get some clues from the Admin Report....

This relates to the weekend before the sale completed...

"Having now resolved what was thought to be the final hurdle in the imminent sale....yadda yadda...the resultant delay and terms of the renegotiation were such that the sale looked almost certain to collapse...the Joint Administrators made plans to cease trading and dismiss all staff"
Indeed. I suppose the ‘conspiracy theorists’ will claim that was an empty threat….

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:13 am

We can also see that (unsurprisingly) FV had to lower their committed payments as a result of COVID....

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:45 am

This relates to the weekend before the sale completed...

"Having now resolved what was thought to be the final hurdle in the imminent sale....yadda yadda...the resultant delay and terms of the renegotiation were such that the sale looked almost certain to collapse...the Joint Administrators made plans to cease trading and dismiss all staff"
[/quote]

Iirc, it was leaked that agreement had been reached without the agreement of Anderson's legal team.

The reality was though that, despite Fildraw writing off c.£12m and unsecured creditors having to accept 35% (less for hotel creditors), FV were taking on a lot of debt for not a lot of value in the tangible assets in an habitually loss-making business.

The £237K agreed with KA was marginal compared to the £28.5million due to be paid in total for the assets and costs of the administration. I expect KA would have had a few expenses to pay out of the £237K, not least Paul Aldridge whose company, Pjsl, was owed £169.8K. I can't see why he would have allowed the debt to get that big without some personal assurance from KA.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:14 am

That's what I understood had happened too, but I thought at the time (or shortly after), Anderson protested loudly "nowt to do with me, guv." I think he's the sort of gentleman I'd want something stronger than a personal assurance from...If I shook hands, I'd be counting my digits after.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:53 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:14 am
That's what I understood had happened too, but I thought at the time (or shortly after), Anderson protested loudly "nowt to do with me, guv." I think he's the sort of gentleman I'd want something stronger than a personal assurance from...If I shook hands, I'd be counting my digits after.
I am in no doubt that Paul Aldridge knew Ken Anderson better than most and PA never seemed to convey any impression of being naive in the least. Quite the contrary but the fact remains that, according to the Administrators, he carried out work to a value exceeding £140K (plus VAT) without payment in full knowledge of the financial risks. There must have been a reason.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:16 pm

Getting my Appleton's and my Aldridge's base about apex. I assume that the only thing he was actually risking was loss of the value of his own time for whatever services he provided on a "consultancy basis" - which I think is what was reported at the time. If his world wasn't going to stop spinning for non-payment, he might have viewed it as low risk.... :-)

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:25 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:16 pm
Getting my Appleton's and my Aldridge's base about apex. I assume that the only thing he was actually risking was loss of the value of his own time for whatever services he provided on a "consultancy basis" - which I think is what was reported at the time. If his world wasn't going to stop spinning for non-payment, he might have viewed it as low risk.... :-)
I think you'll find that Paul Aldridge was actually the de facto CEO. Not an easy job in the circumstances and probably well beyond the capabilities of Dean Holdsworth who had scarcely any relevant experience yet appeared to decide he was worth £250k p.a. It was a non-starter really. Anderson needed to find somebody who could do the job. Enter Paul Aldridge.

Low risk? Not really. I feel sure that was his full-time job doubtless staying in the hotel away from his family in Essex.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:47 pm

Gudnib wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:25 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:16 pm
Getting my Appleton's and my Aldridge's base about apex. I assume that the only thing he was actually risking was loss of the value of his own time for whatever services he provided on a "consultancy basis" - which I think is what was reported at the time. If his world wasn't going to stop spinning for non-payment, he might have viewed it as low risk.... :-)
I think you'll find that Paul Aldridge was actually the de facto CEO. Not an easy job in the circumstances and probably well beyond the capabilities of Dean Holdsworth who had scarcely any relevant experience yet appeared to decide he was worth £250k p.a. It was a non-starter really. Anderson needed to find somebody who could do the job. Enter Paul Aldridge.

Low risk? Not really. I feel sure that was his full-time job doubtless staying in the hotel away from his family in Essex.
Maybe - was an interesting set of words on the official site at the time.

https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2016/june/p ... wanderers/

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:22 pm

I think you'll find that Paul Aldridge was actually the de facto CEO. Not an easy job in the circumstances and probably well beyond the capabilities of Dean Holdsworth who had scarcely any relevant experience yet appeared to decide he was worth £250k p.a. It was a non-starter really. Anderson needed to find somebody who could do the job. Enter Paul Aldridge.

Low risk? Not really. I feel sure that was his full-time job doubtless staying in the hotel away from his family in Essex.
[/quote]
Maybe - was an interesting set of words on the official site at the time.

https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2016/june/p ... wanderers/
[/quote]

I expect that the official site will have chosen the words of any announcement carefully. More widely than that I expect you could ask a hundred Bolton supporters what really happened in March 2016 and be lucky to find one that really understood it all.

The BN could hardly have been more hopeless yet Marc Iles was nominated for an award for his coverage. He didn't win it. The award went to the Guardian's David Conn, the man that claimed that interest on the debt owed to Eddie Davies, that could not be paid without ED paying the interest himself, was 'handy' for the Wanderers former owner and benefactor. Madness!!!!!!

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:31 pm

I'm not really interested in what Conn/Iles wrote or not. The only people who'll actually know are those that were involved :-)

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:11 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:31 pm
I'm not really interested in what Conn/Iles wrote or not. The only people who'll actually know are those that were involved :-)
That is, I fear, where we would part company. Messrs Conn and Iles are part of the story and a significant part too imo. I'm interested in what they have to say. I'm interested in distinguishing fact from fiction, the whole truth from the half-truth, the informed or intelligent observation from the just plain daft.

Two of the main witnesses sadly are no longer with us, seemingly having been subject to significant stress in the latter years of their shortened lifespans. Others that remain may well feel they are obliged to maintain the confidentiality of the events they have witnessed. So it is left to those who weren't witnesses but are interested to try to distinguish between the credible and the incredible if they want to try to make sense of it all. Its not everyone's cup of tea but it is more engrossing than being brainwashed by today's media.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:16 am

Gudnib wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:11 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:31 pm
I'm not really interested in what Conn/Iles wrote or not. The only people who'll actually know are those that were involved :-)
That is, I fear, where we would part company. Messrs Conn and Iles are part of the story and a significant part too imo. I'm interested in what they have to say. I'm interested in distinguishing fact from fiction, the whole truth from the half-truth, the informed or intelligent observation from the just plain daft.

Two of the main witnesses sadly are no longer with us, seemingly having been subject to significant stress in the latter years of their shortened lifespans. Others that remain may well feel they are obliged to maintain the confidentiality of the events they have witnessed. So it is left to those who weren't witnesses but are interested to try to distinguish between the credible and the incredible if they want to try to make sense of it all. Its not everyone's cup of tea but it is more engrossing than being brainwashed by today's media.
Not sure what you think happened beyond a club making a loss with a benefactor who’d had enough and then went through the hands of some dodgy owners and into administration . I’m sure there are some intricacies but you aren’t going to find some huge connected conspiracy. I’d bet my life on that.

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