CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

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Gudnib
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:15 pm

Thank you for that, Dave. It seems that the holding company has run up another c. £500K of administration charges in addition to the £6.8million incurred by the two trading companies. That seems like a lot to me. Does it not to you?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:20 pm

I'm not having this explanation, unless you can whip Biggish Dave, with it. Because that's more important than whether it's right or wrong. :-) I know which person I'd rather have in my business, advising on the financial detail, and it's not this one:
Roger_Irrelevant_Cropped.jpg
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dave the minion
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by dave the minion » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:27 pm

Not necessarily. I mean sure, its a big number, but I don't think any of us can form a view on whether its a lot or not without knowing the detail behind the headline figures and how much it normally costs to run a group of companies such as this in the circumstances they have had to operate.

I guess we can see £700k of those costs are the amortisation of the intangibles, but other than that the only source that is likely to satisfy your desire for knowledge would be someone from the club
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:31 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:20 pm
I'm not having this explanation, unless you can whip Biggish Dave, with it. Because that's more important than whether it's right or wrong. :-) I know which person I'd rather have in my business, advising on the financial detail, and it's not this one:

Roger_Irrelevant_Cropped.jpg
Getting to you, is it Worthy? Dave the minion helped resolve the administrative charges composition in minutes whilst you were clutching at straws like a man with no arms for days.

I think I might ask Dave to explain how the £8.1million is made up. He's obviously got a lot more idea than you have.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:40 pm

Gudnib wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:31 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:20 pm
I'm not having this explanation, unless you can whip Biggish Dave, with it. Because that's more important than whether it's right or wrong. :-) I know which person I'd rather have in my business, advising on the financial detail, and it's not this one:

Roger_Irrelevant_Cropped.jpg
Getting to you, is it Worthy? Dave the minion helped resolve the administrative charges composition in minutes whilst you were clutching at straws like a man with no arms for days.

I think I might ask Dave to explain how the £8.1million is made up. He's obviously got a lot more idea than you have.
I'm struggling to sleep at night, truth be told.

My observation is that DtM has answered the admin charges question that you raised a week ago, that actually, you yourself have offered nothing further than "Not commenting as I need to look at them further", this morning. So let's be having you on what's in the £8.1m - don't be shy.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:44 pm

dave the minion wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:27 pm
Not necessarily. I mean sure, its a big number, but I don't think any of us can form a view on whether its a lot or not without knowing the detail behind the headline figures and how much it normally costs to run a group of companies such as this in the circumstances they have had to operate.

I guess we can see £700k of those costs are the amortisation of the intangibles, but other than that the only source that is likely to satisfy your desire for knowledge would be someone from the club
It is a surprisingly big number, Dave, and it is, of course, possible within a group of companies to make a member of the group appear more profitable or less of a loss maker than it really is. FGR seems to be a particularly obvious example. Derby County is another club that has been taken to task for employing accounting creativity seemingly to get round regulations to serve its own interests to the disadvantage of other clubs.

I'm really more interested in the bigger picture but sometimes you can't get there without following the money and understanding the detail. Anyway the £8.1m on top of the £7.3m is a lot of money. Where's it all gone?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by dave the minion » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:27 pm

Jesus wept.

Stop referring to FGR/Derby - they are not us and its entirely irrelevant what they have or haven't done, which again, none of us know.

Please also stop asking what's in the 8.1m 7.3m - none of us know. I have no better insight into this than anyone else, you included. I can piece together whats presented in the accounts, but I don't have a crystal ball. The only people who can tell us are the club, and they won't.

Your line of questioning is steeped in suspicion about these numbers: why? You can't suspect our numbers just because a guy behind a keyboard somewhere else says so, or because other clubs might have had issues, so why the skpetism? What is it that you know that makes you so suspcious? (I'll give you a clue, suspect the answer is "nothing")....
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:01 pm

dave the minion wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:27 pm
Jesus wept.

Stop referring to FGR/Derby - they are not us and its entirely irrelevant what they have or haven't done, which again, none of us know.

Please also stop asking what's in the 8.1m 7.3m - none of us know. I have no better insight into this than anyone else, you included. I can piece together whats presented in the accounts, but I don't have a crystal ball. The only people who can tell us are the club, and they won't.

Your line of questioning is steeped in suspicion about these numbers: why? You can't suspect our numbers just because a guy behind a keyboard somewhere else says so, or because other clubs might have had issues, so why the skpetism? What is it that you know that makes you so suspcious? (I'll give you a clue, suspect the answer is "nothing")....
Oh dear, Dave, you were beginning to show some promise. I thought you might just have had some insight into where the £8.1m had gone on top of the £7.3m. There are quite a lot of clues but fitting them together to get to £8.1m will be a bit of a laborious exercise.

Just as well Ken Anderson isn't in the frame or you could just have drawn your own conclusions and left it at that. Actually the Administrators he appointed are bound to be part of it and so will the Administrators appointed by the Eddie Davies Trust but then what about the debts that remain after £8.1m has been shelled out on 'intellectual property'? How are they going to get repaid if you've got 7million quid of annual overhead before you've kicked a ball.

Its a long time since I've done any auditing but I haven't forgotten that a good auditor is a sceptical auditor.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:05 pm

Will someone send some new jigsaws round to Sunnybank Meadows of whatever it's called? They must have run out during lockdown...

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:08 pm

Seems to me (as a self-confessed know nowt about high finance) that if the ones that matter in club financial matters and relevant authorities dealing with such are happy, with the Status Quo,particularly with the only club we actually care about, what matters the yodeling of a passing Ebenezer hell bent on turning over old stones for no other reason than his own amusement?
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:25 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:08 pm
Seems to me (as a self-confessed know nowt about high finance) that if the ones that matter in club financial matters and relevant authorities dealing with such are happy, with the Status Quo,particularly with the only club we actually care about, what matters the yodeling of a passing Ebenezer hell bent on turning over old stones for no other reason than his own amusement?
Do you remember Alma Cogan? She couldn't tell a waltz from a tango. I'm sure you are a very nice man but you have been led up the garden path without ever having a clue where you were going or who was holding your hand. Still if it makes you happy and it costs you nowt, dream on.
Last edited by Gudnib on Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Harry Genshaw » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:01 pm

How's he, or any of us for that matter, been led up the garden path?

In your desperate need for attention, and I realise I'm not helping by responding, you've dragged this along to 8 pages. And what big reveal have you done? What smoking gun have you discovered that the rest of us were too thick to spot?

You've turned this thread into an accounting equivalent of Most haunted. Lots of oohs, aahhs and speculation but by the end?Absolutely feck all.
"Get your feet off the furniture you Oxbridge tw*t. You're not on a feckin punt now you know"

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:24 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:01 pm
How's he, or any of us for that matter, been led up the garden path?

In your desperate need for attention, and I realise I'm not helping by responding, you've dragged this along to 8 pages. And what big reveal have you done? What smoking gun have you discovered that the rest of us were too thick to spot?

You've turned this thread into an accounting equivalent of Most haunted. Lots of oohs, aahhs and speculation but by the end?Absolutely feck all.
Smoking guns? Not really
Concerns? Definitely
Wilfull blindness? Absolutely.
Irrationality? By the bucket load
Are you a totally lost cause and absolute waste of time, H? Sorry but I am afraid you are and regrettably so is the company you keep.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:18 am

The Wanderer's gang's vehement hostility to any examination of FV's accounts is quite interesting but sadly all too familiar. Its as if they've all got something to hide, something that they desperately don't want to be unearthed but why, what is their problem?

Isn't it the most normal thing in the world for anyone with an interest in both Bolton Wanderers and in finance to see how the club managed to get through the crises in 2016 and 2019 and how it has emerged from them?

Its rarely a good sign when any company is late in filing their accounts and apart from Southend, who still haven't filed, the accounts of FVWL Football were the most overdue of any club competing in League 2 last season. Why was that? Grimsby Town managed to get their accounts filed before last Christmas.

Does it not run completely contrary to the very idea of the transparency currently being sought by football clubs fans through Tracey Crouch's fan-led review? I think it does, but what does the BWFCST have to say other than nothing about how late these accounts were or what the accounts actually tell us?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sport ... tball.html

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Bertie Wooster » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:45 am

Gudni, please give it a rest - your posts really are becoming very tedious.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:01 am

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:45 am
Gudni, please give it a rest - your posts really are becoming very tedious.
They've always been tedious, Bertie, to those who want to bury the past or misrepresent the present. You do have the option of ignoring them, you know.
What was it Bertie Wooster said, 'I cannot do with any more education, Jeeves'.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:20 am

This is getting dull. We submitted accounts late because the new ownership group inherited a club in a complete mess who hadn't been able to submit signed off accounts for two years and then covid hit. Its not hard to see the struggles they've had with numerous CEO/COO's having to leave. And none of those decisions to leave related to the job or the club either so don't poke away to try and uncover a conspiracy that isn't there.

As for transparency - FV aren't transparent. But neither do they need to be and neither are the vast majority of football club ownerships. Unless a club is run at a profit or break even on an annual basis there is always cause for concern. But the only indicators that really tell us anything are a) are bills and salaries always paid on time b) what is the annual loss and c) what's the debt structure. We can look at a and b - c is in the accounts but you'll never full know how much or little of a concern that is without understanding the full details. Eddie Davies allowed the club to rack up huge debt owed to himself - the debt itself was actually not much of an issue it was the fact the club was still losing money that he got fed up of subsidising. If for example BWFC had weaned off ED's teat and been self sufficient the sale as was conducted in admin could have happened outside of that ED would probably have recouped more money and the debt would have gone to the same extent it has now.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by Gudnib » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:11 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:20 am
This is getting dull. We submitted accounts late because the new ownership group inherited a club in a complete mess who hadn't been able to submit signed off accounts for two years and then covid hit. Its not hard to see the struggles they've had with numerous CEO/COO's having to leave. And none of those decisions to leave related to the job or the club either so don't poke away to try and uncover a conspiracy that isn't there.

As for transparency - FV aren't transparent. But neither do they need to be and neither are the vast majority of football club ownerships. Unless a club is run at a profit or break even on an annual basis there is always cause for concern. But the only indicators that really tell us anything are a) are bills and salaries always paid on time b) what is the annual loss and c) what's the debt structure. We can look at a and b - c is in the accounts but you'll never full know how much or little of a concern that is without understanding the full details. Eddie Davies allowed the club to rack up huge debt owed to himself - the debt itself was actually not much of an issue it was the fact the club was still losing money that he got fed up of subsidising. If for example BWFC had weaned off ED's teat and been self sufficient the sale as was conducted in admin could have happened outside of that ED would probably have recouped more money and the debt would have gone to the same extent it has now.
Your limited knowledge is erm..... limited. End of.

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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:26 am

Gudnib wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:25 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:08 pm
Seems to me (as a self-confessed know nowt about high finance) that if the ones that matter in club financial matters and relevant authorities dealing with such are happy, with the Status Quo,particularly with the only club we actually care about, what matters the yodeling of a passing Ebenezer hell bent on turning over old stones for no other reason than his own amusement?
Do you remember Alma Cogan? She couldn't tell a waltz from a tango. I'm sure you are a very nice man but you have been led up the garden path without ever having a clue where you were going or who was holding your hand. Still if it makes you happy and it costs you nowt, dream on.
:mrgreen: Ha, a comedian and patronising with it. Okay, hear this: having been a lifetime dance lover, ballroom and latin, running a Spanish dance forum for 7 or 8 years yes, I can tell a waltz from a tango. Having been a moderator/admin for many years I can also tell a genuine poster/Wanderers fan from a trouble making, wind up merchant with some obsecure points to prove. Take this as a friendly warning; if you continue with your agressive/insulting attacks on members, I may well be forced to ban you. Laugh that off.
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Re: CLUB BUSINESS/SUNDRIES ETC.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:46 am

Gudnib wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:11 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:20 am
This is getting dull. We submitted accounts late because the new ownership group inherited a club in a complete mess who hadn't been able to submit signed off accounts for two years and then covid hit. Its not hard to see the struggles they've had with numerous CEO/COO's having to leave. And none of those decisions to leave related to the job or the club either so don't poke away to try and uncover a conspiracy that isn't there.

As for transparency - FV aren't transparent. But neither do they need to be and neither are the vast majority of football club ownerships. Unless a club is run at a profit or break even on an annual basis there is always cause for concern. But the only indicators that really tell us anything are a) are bills and salaries always paid on time b) what is the annual loss and c) what's the debt structure. We can look at a and b - c is in the accounts but you'll never full know how much or little of a concern that is without understanding the full details. Eddie Davies allowed the club to rack up huge debt owed to himself - the debt itself was actually not much of an issue it was the fact the club was still losing money that he got fed up of subsidising. If for example BWFC had weaned off ED's teat and been self sufficient the sale as was conducted in admin could have happened outside of that ED would probably have recouped more money and the debt would have gone to the same extent it has now.
Your limited knowledge is erm..... limited. End of.
And you've spent the last year and a half spouting conspiracy theories on multiple forums and failed to land a single punch on FV or anyone associated with the club. I know that the amount of time you've dedicated to this and your complete and abject failure to land anything or have anyone meaningful listen to you is incredibly frustrating. Its eating away at you. But you've tried and failed and here was your last desperate attempt, and once again, nada, nothing.

To use a football analogy you are 6-0 down in injury time and have just had a man sent off. The crowd has stopped laughing at you and just feels sorry for you. The referee is going to blow up early to save any further humiliation.

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