Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

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To which of the following should BWFC offer contracts?

Poll ended at Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:10 pm

Lukas Jensen
5
2%
Matty Alexander*
12
5%
Gethin Jones
26
11%
Jak Hickman
0
No votes
Alex Baptiste
27
12%
Harry Brockbank
21
9%
Ryan Delaney
4
2%
Jamie Mascoll
0
No votes
Adam Senior*
16
7%
Declan John
27
12%
Andrew Tutte
5
2%
Sonny Graham*
14
6%
Callum King-Harmes*
9
4%
Lloyd Isgrove
27
12%
Zack Elbouzedi
4
2%
Dapo Afolayan
27
12%
Shaun Miller
7
3%
Mo Faal
0
No votes
Arthur Gnahoua
3
1%
 
Total votes: 234

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Worthy4England » Fri May 14, 2021 4:20 pm

Think we spotted Baps and Jones had been offered extensions but also Gilks and Hurford-Lockett from BEN today....All good so far.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri May 14, 2021 4:29 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 4:20 pm
Think we spotted Baps and Jones had been offered extensions but also Gilks and Hurford-Lockett from BEN today....All good so far.
Aye. For the record, Finlay Lockett (he's dropped the Hurford, which is his right to do) isn't on the list above as he's currently a scholar rather than a pro.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Worthy4England » Fri May 14, 2021 4:43 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 4:29 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 4:20 pm
Think we spotted Baps and Jones had been offered extensions but also Gilks and Hurford-Lockett from BEN today....All good so far.
Aye. For the record, Finlay Lockett (he's dropped the Hurford, which is his right to do) isn't on the list above as he's currently a scholar rather than a pro.
I musta subconsciously added Hurford. :-)

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Bruce Rioja » Fri May 14, 2021 6:00 pm

Quite surprised, and somehow even a little disappointed, that only five of us voted to keep Miller.
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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Prufrock » Fri May 14, 2021 6:08 pm

Been worth his place this year but he's 33, never shone a league up, we're limited to 22 and a striker would be pretty close to the top of my list of targets. I'm not sure Doyle is up to a league above, got serious doubts on Miller. Much like Tutte, thanks but we need to upgrade.

I'm more baffled at who the hell picked Isgrove, Daps, John and Clinton, but not Gethin!
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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri May 14, 2021 6:20 pm

Re his statement: Not sure I'd have used Evatt's blunt approach to sentiment. Okay, thinking private thoughts is one thing, but airing those thoughts needs some finesse and in this case, whichever way you twirl it,"sentiment" surely means not good enough to be retained. I may be all wrong, just my view, but I wouldn't have been quite so forthright in print.
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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 14, 2021 6:33 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:20 pm
Re his statement: Not sure I'd have used Evatt's blunt approach to sentiment. Okay, thinking private thoughts is one thing, but airing those thoughts needs some finesse and in this case, whichever way you twirl it,"sentiment" surely means not good enough to be retained. I may be all wrong, just my view, but I wouldn't have been quite so forthright in print.
I like it. He’s right. Sentiment gets you nowhere. There is a difference between sentiment and loyalty. You can have loyalty and respect without poor decisions based on sentiment. We all know we’ve kept many players in the past long past their best and paid them good money in the process. We can’t do that and good decision making is important.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri May 14, 2021 6:40 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:33 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:20 pm
Re his statement: Not sure I'd have used Evatt's blunt approach to sentiment. Okay, thinking private thoughts is one thing, but airing those thoughts needs some finesse and in this case, whichever way you twirl it,"sentiment" surely means not good enough to be retained. I may be all wrong, just my view, but I wouldn't have been quite so forthright in print.
I like it. He’s right. Sentiment gets you nowhere. There is a difference between sentiment and loyalty. You can have loyalty and respect without poor decisions based on sentiment. We all know we’ve kept many players in the past long past their best and paid them good money in the process. We can’t do that and good decision making is important.
We really are through the looking glass :mrgreen: because I'm less pro-Evo than you on this one... while I agree with your assessment, I think it's a little loose-lipped and I can't imagine it will help, say, Harry Brockbank sleep more easily this weekend ("No sentiment? Does he mean me?")

Easy to forget Evatt's only three seasons in – he's still not even 40 – and I don't doubt he's learning, but I suspect that to a greater or lesser extent we're just going to have to get used to him slipping over the line between loquacious and garrulous. We had that with the last manager and also with Allardyce; one of them was generally forgiven, because he did the business on the pitch. It is the way of things.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 14, 2021 7:16 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:40 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:33 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:20 pm
Re his statement: Not sure I'd have used Evatt's blunt approach to sentiment. Okay, thinking private thoughts is one thing, but airing those thoughts needs some finesse and in this case, whichever way you twirl it,"sentiment" surely means not good enough to be retained. I may be all wrong, just my view, but I wouldn't have been quite so forthright in print.
I like it. He’s right. Sentiment gets you nowhere. There is a difference between sentiment and loyalty. You can have loyalty and respect without poor decisions based on sentiment. We all know we’ve kept many players in the past long past their best and paid them good money in the process. We can’t do that and good decision making is important.
We really are through the looking glass :mrgreen: because I'm less pro-Evo than you on this one... while I agree with your assessment, I think it's a little loose-lipped and I can't imagine it will help, say, Harry Brockbank sleep more easily this weekend ("No sentiment? Does he mean me?")

Easy to forget Evatt's only three seasons in – he's still not even 40 – and I don't doubt he's learning, but I suspect that to a greater or lesser extent we're just going to have to get used to him slipping over the line between loquacious and garrulous. We had that with the last manager and also with Allardyce; one of them was generally forgiven, because he did the business on the pitch. It is the way of things.
Evatt is ambitious. I suspect with that (as with Big Sam) comes an element of cold hard ruthlessness. And it might make some uncomfortable. Good. Our club has been too comfortable and a place where many were taking the piss.

I get that perhaps saying this in the press is arguably unnecessary. But perhaps his aim is to send the signals out that the club won’t be handing wages and deals out like sweeties. And ultimately I suspect with Evatt you need to take his ambition and whiff of arrogance as part of the package. My bet with Evatt is he’s a lot more Allardyce like than first appearances suggest. He might talk about good football but when push came to shove we employed an awful lot of Allardyce spoiling games tactics. Nothing wrong with that. Find ways to win. He has a bit of Bruce Rioch in him for sure but also Big Sam tendencies too.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Worthy4England » Fri May 14, 2021 8:23 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:00 pm
Quite surprised, and somehow even a little disappointed, that only five of us voted to keep Miller.
Me too, he's hardly looked knackered in games and does look like putting the ball in the onion bag.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Worthy4England » Fri May 14, 2021 8:33 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:40 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:33 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:20 pm
Re his statement: Not sure I'd have used Evatt's blunt approach to sentiment. Okay, thinking private thoughts is one thing, but airing those thoughts needs some finesse and in this case, whichever way you twirl it,"sentiment" surely means not good enough to be retained. I may be all wrong, just my view, but I wouldn't have been quite so forthright in print.
I like it. He’s right. Sentiment gets you nowhere. There is a difference between sentiment and loyalty. You can have loyalty and respect without poor decisions based on sentiment. We all know we’ve kept many players in the past long past their best and paid them good money in the process. We can’t do that and good decision making is important.
We really are through the looking glass :mrgreen: because I'm less pro-Evo than you on this one... while I agree with your assessment, I think it's a little loose-lipped and I can't imagine it will help, say, Harry Brockbank sleep more easily this weekend ("No sentiment? Does he mean me?")

Easy to forget Evatt's only three seasons in – he's still not even 40 – and I don't doubt he's learning, but I suspect that to a greater or lesser extent we're just going to have to get used to him slipping over the line between loquacious and garrulous. We had that with the last manager and also with Allardyce; one of them was generally forgiven, because he did the business on the pitch. It is the way of things.
Any player who's contract is due to run out will know regardless of what Evatt says or doesn't say that there's a possibility it doesn't get renewed. Given they've already announced some extensions, I suspect if you're not in that group, your going to be rather worried irrespective of what's gone into print. :-) The sentiment thing could also apply to Darcy or Politic - who knows.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 14, 2021 10:00 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:33 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:40 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:33 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:20 pm
Re his statement: Not sure I'd have used Evatt's blunt approach to sentiment. Okay, thinking private thoughts is one thing, but airing those thoughts needs some finesse and in this case, whichever way you twirl it,"sentiment" surely means not good enough to be retained. I may be all wrong, just my view, but I wouldn't have been quite so forthright in print.
I like it. He’s right. Sentiment gets you nowhere. There is a difference between sentiment and loyalty. You can have loyalty and respect without poor decisions based on sentiment. We all know we’ve kept many players in the past long past their best and paid them good money in the process. We can’t do that and good decision making is important.
We really are through the looking glass :mrgreen: because I'm less pro-Evo than you on this one... while I agree with your assessment, I think it's a little loose-lipped and I can't imagine it will help, say, Harry Brockbank sleep more easily this weekend ("No sentiment? Does he mean me?")

Easy to forget Evatt's only three seasons in – he's still not even 40 – and I don't doubt he's learning, but I suspect that to a greater or lesser extent we're just going to have to get used to him slipping over the line between loquacious and garrulous. We had that with the last manager and also with Allardyce; one of them was generally forgiven, because he did the business on the pitch. It is the way of things.
Any player who's contract is due to run out will know regardless of what Evatt says or doesn't say that there's a possibility it doesn't get renewed. Given they've already announced some extensions, I suspect if you're not in that group, your going to be rather worried irrespective of what's gone into print. :-) The sentiment thing could also apply to Darcy or Politic - who knows.
And there are two possibilities.

1) Evatt doesn’t rate you enough to give you a deal. Doesn’t really matter in that case.

2) You do get a deal but have a few uncomfortable days worrying about it. Stops anyone being too comfortable.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by LeverEnd » Sat May 15, 2021 7:35 am

Bwfci you seem to actually relish our successful promoted players worrying about their futures.
I tend to think it makes no difference what he's said to the press, for Harry B or anyone else. They'll know there's a chance they'll be released. Sounds like it will be sorted promptly and face to face, which is all anyone can ask.
...

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat May 15, 2021 9:31 am

LeverEnd wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 7:35 am
Bwfci you seem to actually relish our successful promoted players worrying about their futures.
I tend to think it makes no difference what he's said to the press, for Harry B or anyone else. They'll know there's a chance they'll be released. Sounds like it will be sorted promptly and face to face, which is all anyone can ask.
I don’t think it does any harm for people to be kept on their toes. As opposed to in May, ‘sorry Zat you’re a bit rubbish go away’...July, ’oh nobody has signed you Zat how strange, here have a big fat new deal’.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Worthy4England » Sat May 15, 2021 1:12 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 9:31 am
LeverEnd wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 7:35 am
Bwfci you seem to actually relish our successful promoted players worrying about their futures.
I tend to think it makes no difference what he's said to the press, for Harry B or anyone else. They'll know there's a chance they'll be released. Sounds like it will be sorted promptly and face to face, which is all anyone can ask.
I don’t think it does any harm for people to be kept on their toes. As opposed to in May, ‘sorry Zat you’re a bit rubbish go away’...July, ’oh nobody has signed you Zat how strange, here have a big fat new deal’.
I don't agree that the best way of getting performance or "keeping people on their toes" is to keep them under threat of losing their job. That's sorta straight out of the 1930's Civil Service Management School of thinking. There is a place for "pay per play" contracts, but wouldn't want to see them as the "norm." It adds a non-performance related worry to them. Of course there isn't a way of stopping performance related stuff, such as not been in the named squad, rarely/never coming off the bench combined with contract expiring and coming to the end of the season. So as a reality it exists, but as a management tool, it's a pretty poor one.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat May 15, 2021 1:55 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:23 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:00 pm
Quite surprised, and somehow even a little disappointed, that only five of us voted to keep Miller.
Me too, he's hardly looked knackered in games and does look like putting the ball in the onion bag.
Not surprised he seemed fresh - his average time on pitch was nine minutes, with no league appearance longer than 21 minutes. :D

I can't speak for any of the others who didn't vote to keep him, but I'll explain my thinking.

I like the guy, and his two goals against the tiring defences of Southend and Barrow won us four vital points. (His other league goal, against Grimsby, was an irrelevant consolation.)

But he’s 34 this year. His goals came against three of the four worst teams in the division. He was a bit-part player in a fourth division team, and he missed two or three months of this campaign with injury.

Over his career, his third-tier record is 17 goals in 108 games: he’s spent six seasons (or parts thereof) at that level and never scored more than 5 (from 33 games for Crewe, in 2008/09, when Barack Obama was being elected president). At his last attempt, in 2014/15 (when the Liberal Democrats were still notionally in part-power), he scored 1 in 17.

As I say, I like the guy and I thank him for his efforts, but we need younger and frankly better players. If we’re playing one up top in the third tier he shouldn’t be more than third or fourth choice, and we haven’t got the squad space for that.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat May 15, 2021 2:00 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 1:12 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 9:31 am
LeverEnd wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 7:35 am
Bwfci you seem to actually relish our successful promoted players worrying about their futures.
I tend to think it makes no difference what he's said to the press, for Harry B or anyone else. They'll know there's a chance they'll be released. Sounds like it will be sorted promptly and face to face, which is all anyone can ask.
I don’t think it does any harm for people to be kept on their toes. As opposed to in May, ‘sorry Zat you’re a bit rubbish go away’...July, ’oh nobody has signed you Zat how strange, here have a big fat new deal’.
I don't agree that the best way of getting performance or "keeping people on their toes" is to keep them under threat of losing their job. That's sorta straight out of the 1930's Civil Service Management School of thinking. There is a place for "pay per play" contracts, but wouldn't want to see them as the "norm." It adds a non-performance related worry to them. Of course there isn't a way of stopping performance related stuff, such as not been in the named squad, rarely/never coming off the bench combined with contract expiring and coming to the end of the season. So as a reality it exists, but as a management tool, it's a pretty poor one.
Not forever for a few days and I think we as a club need to move away from the idea that your next contract is a given. Not advocating that people are dispensed of after a bad game or for a lack of loyalty. Just that I don’t mind an ambitious manager who is determined to do what it takes to see us succeed. Rather than jobs for past players just because they were good once and we liked them. If a manager trusts his judgement and makes big calls. End of the day what he says or doesn’t say in the press doesn’t impact on the outcomes.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Worthy4England » Sat May 15, 2021 2:06 pm

Agree, his mind is already made up and the "outcome" will be the "outcome." Disagree it's a decent tool to keep people on their tools. Having been in the position of making layoffs, it's a shit part of anyone's job and I doubt most folks would view it as a decent management tool.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat May 15, 2021 2:08 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 2:00 pm
End of the day what he says or doesn’t say in the press doesn’t impact on the outcomes.
Depends what it is. First thing a non-Wanderer mate of mine said when I spoke to him post-promotion was "yeah but your manager bullied a child." Unfair, perhaps, but there is definitely a potential to change outcomes - maybe not points and goals, but reputations.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat May 15, 2021 2:10 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 2:06 pm
Agree, his mind is already made up and the "outcome" will be the "outcome." Disagree it's a decent tool to keep people on their tools. Having been in the position of making layoffs, it's a shit part of anyone's job and I doubt most folks would view it as a decent management tool.
Been there; same here. You're aware you're fundamentally changing lives.

I think footballers are more ready for it, as contracted workers with an obviously finite working-life span – but I also think football fans are less sympathetic than they would be in other walks of life.

And of course there's a much, much higher churn of players than there used to be – the corollary of the benefits the Bosman ruling brought to player power.

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