Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

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To which of the following should BWFC offer contracts?

Poll ended at Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:10 pm

Lukas Jensen
5
2%
Matty Alexander*
12
5%
Gethin Jones
26
11%
Jak Hickman
0
No votes
Alex Baptiste
27
12%
Harry Brockbank
21
9%
Ryan Delaney
4
2%
Jamie Mascoll
0
No votes
Adam Senior*
16
7%
Declan John
27
12%
Andrew Tutte
5
2%
Sonny Graham*
14
6%
Callum King-Harmes*
9
4%
Lloyd Isgrove
27
12%
Zack Elbouzedi
4
2%
Dapo Afolayan
27
12%
Shaun Miller
7
3%
Mo Faal
0
No votes
Arthur Gnahoua
3
1%
 
Total votes: 234

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat May 15, 2021 2:37 pm

Although it's the same for every team, the big fly in the ointment, and one nobody can fully guard against with certainty is injury, both mental and physical . We've had our fair share of bad luck in the past with the likes of Holden and Mark Davies etc, but attempting to guard against covering top players ( we were lucky with Sarcevic and not so with Madison) has to be a real worry. Going up a level makes it harder still if we get hit with any long term stuff, so covering positions has to be a relevant factor when putting squads together. How suspect are any of our current players (and I'm asking because I don't know) to be likely our promotion might affect.

I'd never really thought much about age, assuming time and tide metaphorically wait for no man, but younger players are the norm more than ever. I just wonder where I.E draws his lines of no sentiment and how much age is a consideration in his thinking; Gilks, Baptiste etc?
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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat May 15, 2021 2:45 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 2:37 pm
Although it's the same for every team, the big fly in the ointment, and one nobody can fully guard against with certainty is injury, both mental and physical . We've had our fair share of bad luck in the past with the likes of Holden and Mark Davies etc, but attempting to guard against covering top players ( we were lucky with Sarcevic and not so with Madison) has to be a real worry. Going up a level makes it harder still if we get hit with any long term stuff, so covering positions has to be a relevant factor when putting squads together. How suspect are any of our current players (and I'm asking because I don't know) to be likely our promotion might affect.

I'd never really thought much about age, assuming time and tide metaphorically wait for no man, but younger players are the norm more than ever. I just wonder where I.E draws his lines of no sentiment and how much age is a consideration in his thinking; Gilks, Baptiste etc?
He’s already said Gilks and Baps are being offered deals.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat May 15, 2021 2:48 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 2:45 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 2:37 pm
Although it's the same for every team, the big fly in the ointment, and one nobody can fully guard against with certainty is injury, both mental and physical . We've had our fair share of bad luck in the past with the likes of Holden and Mark Davies etc, but attempting to guard against covering top players ( we were lucky with Sarcevic and not so with Madison) has to be a real worry. Going up a level makes it harder still if we get hit with any long term stuff, so covering positions has to be a relevant factor when putting squads together. How suspect are any of our current players (and I'm asking because I don't know) to be likely our promotion might affect.

I'd never really thought much about age, assuming time and tide metaphorically wait for no man, but younger players are the norm more than ever. I just wonder where I.E draws his lines of no sentiment and how much age is a consideration in his thinking; Gilks, Baptiste etc?
He’s already said Gilks and Baps are being offered deals.
I know. That's what my question was for. One statement seems to contradict another.
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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat May 15, 2021 3:00 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 2:48 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 2:45 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 2:37 pm
Although it's the same for every team, the big fly in the ointment, and one nobody can fully guard against with certainty is injury, both mental and physical . We've had our fair share of bad luck in the past with the likes of Holden and Mark Davies etc, but attempting to guard against covering top players ( we were lucky with Sarcevic and not so with Madison) has to be a real worry. Going up a level makes it harder still if we get hit with any long term stuff, so covering positions has to be a relevant factor when putting squads together. How suspect are any of our current players (and I'm asking because I don't know) to be likely our promotion might affect.

I'd never really thought much about age, assuming time and tide metaphorically wait for no man, but younger players are the norm more than ever. I just wonder where I.E draws his lines of no sentiment and how much age is a consideration in his thinking; Gilks, Baptiste etc?
He’s already said Gilks and Baps are being offered deals.
I know. That's what my question was for. One statement seems to contradict another.
Don’t think he’s giving either a deal out of sentiment but out of a belief they can still do the job next season.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat May 15, 2021 3:12 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 2:48 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 2:45 pm
He’s already said Gilks and Baps are being offered deals.
I know. That's what my question was for. One statement seems to contradict another.
I see what you mean TD, but Evatt's been careful to say they both deserve new deals for their performances, not their longevity (or having been his old team-mates).

And he has a point: I think most of us would have Gilks and Baps in our top five or even top three players of the season, so it's not a giant leap to extend their contracts – presumably not expensively, either, considering one was half-retired and the other had played eight league games in the previous two seasons.

Evatt on Gilks: “Forget about his age, he’s a very healthy man, looks after himself and trains professionally and if you look statistically what he has done this season he is – in my view – the best goalkeeper in League Two, and will be one of the best goalkeepers in League One next season. Why wouldn’t we want him to play on?"

Evatt on Baptiste: “He has earned it on merit and the way he played. So we want to do what we can to keep him because not only has he proved to be a fantastic football player but he’s also a fantastic human being and Bolton Wanderers is a better place with him in it.”

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Worthy4England » Sat May 15, 2021 5:10 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 1:55 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:23 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:00 pm
Quite surprised, and somehow even a little disappointed, that only five of us voted to keep Miller.
Me too, he's hardly looked knackered in games and does look like putting the ball in the onion bag.
Not surprised he seemed fresh - his average time on pitch was nine minutes, with no league appearance longer than 21 minutes. :D

I can't speak for any of the others who didn't vote to keep him, but I'll explain my thinking.

I like the guy, and his two goals against the tiring defences of Southend and Barrow won us four vital points. (His other league goal, against Grimsby, was an irrelevant consolation.)

But he’s 34 this year. His goals came against three of the four worst teams in the division. He was a bit-part player in a fourth division team, and he missed two or three months of this campaign with injury.

Over his career, his third-tier record is 17 goals in 108 games: he’s spent six seasons (or parts thereof) at that level and never scored more than 5 (from 33 games for Crewe, in 2008/09, when Barack Obama was being elected president). At his last attempt, in 2014/15 (when the Liberal Democrats were still notionally in part-power), he scored 1 in 17.

As I say, I like the guy and I thank him for his efforts, but we need younger and frankly better players. If we’re playing one up top in the third tier he shouldn’t be more than third or fourth choice, and we haven’t got the squad space for that.
My take, DSB, is that at the moment, we have two strikers. Doyle and "Occasional Miller." Nor sure either will make the step up as a "20 goal" striker. We have a bit of a problem with a mis-firing midfield. If we can find better/younger that'll be great and we move forward but at the minute, it's just another one Division up gap.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat May 15, 2021 5:19 pm

Yeah on Miller I liked him and was surprised at the impact he made and how much quality he had. But it’s age and squad size and striker type for me. Miller is not really a different option to Doyle, is 33 and given up front we need different and more varied options and looking at Miller’s injury record I think it’s a definite no. Super John on the podcast made the point that in league one we need a bigger target up front to either let Doyle play off at times or just to throw up front to try chucking crosses in at. For me we just need a more physical forward who will give us different options.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat May 15, 2021 5:33 pm

Worthy - likesay, Miller’s not scored 20 L1 goals in his career, let alone a season. I know we’re short of bodies up front but IMO it would be folly to panic and hire Miller now. Having a goalshy midfield is not the reason to sign a historically low-return (at third-tier) striker. If we haven’t signed anybody else by September, which IIRC is when we signed him last year, then I wouldn’t boo his re-signing - but nor would I expect it to take us up, or even keep us up. We’ve had far too many this’ll-do squad-fillers; now’s the time to trade up, and the calendrical fact is that that means releasing some before hiring others. It’ll be reet.
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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat May 15, 2021 5:35 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 5:33 pm
Worthy - likesay, Miller’s not scored 20 L1 goals in his career, let alone a season. I know we’re short of bodies up front but IMO it would be folly to panic and hire Miller now. If we haven’t signed anybody else by September, which IIRC is when we signed him last year, then I wouldn’t boo his re-signing - but nor would I expect it to take us up, or even keep us up. We’ve had far too many this’ll-do squad-fillers; now’s the time to trade up, and the calendrical fact is that that means releasing some before hiring others. It’ll be reet.
Other thing to think about is whether we can sign a more physical striker type who could also do one of the wide jobs. Having a presence out wide with Doyle up top at times might be advantageous.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun May 16, 2021 1:48 pm

Forgot I'd made this squad diagram. Remember Evatt has said he wants three for every position, including a promising youngster; the best of the youngsters could also compete for first-team places, but if they're under the EFL's usual cutoff age I've put them in the kiddie column, because they won't count against the squad size (whatever that is). Grey/italics are out of contract (I assume Gilks is contracted as a coach, but you get the idea).
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squad.jpeg
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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by sonicthewhite » Sun May 16, 2021 2:22 pm

Just goes to show that we have another massive building job this summer.
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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun May 16, 2021 2:41 pm

sonicthewhite wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 2:22 pm
Just goes to show that we have another massive building job this summer.
I've been pickier than some might be. We could presumably quite easily fill most of the gaps in the second column by extending contracts – Delaney, Tutte, Miller, Gnahoua - and giving those in the last column another chance (they are, after all, contracted, albeit over-age). But i think we can do better than that, and if we're to keep the bounce going, I personally think we need to. January's dealings showed a decent eye for a player, and it's more one of those (when we got eight in) than summer (when we hired 19). Quality not quantity; more proven heads than "Ooh look at this guy, he might be good."

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Prufrock » Sun May 16, 2021 2:50 pm

I think we need 10 to go and challenge at the top end. Which is a lot, but a lot less than last summer.
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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun May 16, 2021 4:43 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 2:50 pm
I think we need 10 to go and challenge at the top end. Which is a lot, but a lot less than last summer.
It’s a LOT if the squad cap of 20 holds for sure. Would also mean ditching more of the current squad than many seem to want to do.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by The_Gun » Sun May 16, 2021 5:05 pm

I think more of a dilemma than the lads who are out of contract, is what to do with the ones who are contracted beyond this year but won’t play.

Are there likely to be any takers for the below?

Greenidge
Gordon
Edwards (!)
Crawford
Comley


I’m guessing it will be a contract termination job with the lot of them, but unfortunately I don’t think we’ll even get a Taft/Scunthorpe situation with the majority, so we’d have to pay the full outstanding amounts.

Bit of a kick in the bollocks if we had to write off all that cash, but no way any of this lot can be given a valuable squad place in League One.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun May 16, 2021 5:16 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 5:05 pm
I think more of a dilemma than the lads who are out of contract, is what to do with the ones who are contracted beyond this year but won’t play.

Are there likely to be any takers for the below?

Greenidge
Gordon
Edwards (!)
Crawford
Comley


I’m guessing it will be a contract termination job with the lot of them, but unfortunately I don’t think we’ll even get a Taft/Scunthorpe situation with the majority, so we’d have to pay the full outstanding amounts.

Bit of a kick in the bollocks if we had to write off all that cash, but no way any of this lot can be given a valuable squad place in League One.
You can’t just pay players off unilaterally. Both sides have to agree for registration to be terminated. And whilst sometimes it suits both parties but other times players would rather stay employed for a few reasons.

I’m unconvinced that we will just dispense of Gordon and Edwards at the very least. So we will have to see. Perhaps some loans for some. Crawford possibly hardest as he’s not looked very good since injury.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun May 16, 2021 5:17 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 5:05 pm
I think more of a dilemma than the lads who are out of contract, is what to do with the ones who are contracted beyond this year but won’t play.

Are there likely to be any takers for the below?

Greenidge
Gordon
Edwards (!)
Crawford
Comley


I’m guessing it will be a contract termination job with the lot of them, but unfortunately I don’t think we’ll even get a Taft/Scunthorpe situation with the majority, so we’d have to pay the full outstanding amounts.

Bit of a kick in the bollocks if we had to write off all that cash, but no way any of this lot can be given a valuable squad place in League One.
Edwards no chance, but he won't be on much.
Gordon we should be able to loan out to a National League or maybe even D4 team.
Greenidge, jeez, maybe we can him loan him to the National League or Sweden or the moon or a circus or something.
Comley isn't a bad player, hopefully we can loan him to a D4 team, maybe taking a percentage hit on wages.
Crawford is the hardest, as I imagine he'll be on at least twice the wage of anyone else there. We might have to take a hit and loan him to someone who will only pay a slice; I can't imagine there'll be D3 clubs queuing up. Or Evatt might just have to see how he does in a 4-2-3-1 rather than the 3-5-2 he struggled in. I get the feeling we'll hear the phrase "clean slate" about at least one player.
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 5:16 pm
You can’t just pay players off unilaterally. Both sides have to agree for registration to be terminated. And whilst sometimes it suits both parties but other times players would rather stay employed for a few reasons.
You can pay up their contract in full, which means they get the money they're owed and become free agents able to earn more on top elsewhere, so not many players would disagree. But it's a last resort.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Prufrock » Sun May 16, 2021 5:50 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 4:43 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 2:50 pm
I think we need 10 to go and challenge at the top end. Which is a lot, but a lot less than last summer.
It’s a LOT if the squad cap of 20 holds for sure. Would also mean ditching more of the current squad than many seem to want to do.
I can't count, I meant 9. Which is basically where I think most people are in terms of retention (plus I'd try to move Delf on) for a 22 man squad with Thommo and Politic as underage.
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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun May 16, 2021 6:29 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 5:17 pm
The_Gun wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 5:05 pm
I think more of a dilemma than the lads who are out of contract, is what to do with the ones who are contracted beyond this year but won’t play.

Are there likely to be any takers for the below?

Greenidge
Gordon
Edwards (!)
Crawford
Comley


I’m guessing it will be a contract termination job with the lot of them, but unfortunately I don’t think we’ll even get a Taft/Scunthorpe situation with the majority, so we’d have to pay the full outstanding amounts.

Bit of a kick in the bollocks if we had to write off all that cash, but no way any of this lot can be given a valuable squad place in League One.
Edwards no chance, but he won't be on much.
Gordon we should be able to loan out to a National League or maybe even D4 team.
Greenidge, jeez, maybe we can him loan him to the National League or Sweden or the moon or a circus or something.
Comley isn't a bad player, hopefully we can loan him to a D4 team, maybe taking a percentage hit on wages.
Crawford is the hardest, as I imagine he'll be on at least twice the wage of anyone else there. We might have to take a hit and loan him to someone who will only pay a slice; I can't imagine there'll be D3 clubs queuing up. Or Evatt might just have to see how he does in a 4-2-3-1 rather than the 3-5-2 he struggled in. I get the feeling we'll hear the phrase "clean slate" about at least one player.
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 5:16 pm
You can’t just pay players off unilaterally. Both sides have to agree for registration to be terminated. And whilst sometimes it suits both parties but other times players would rather stay employed for a few reasons.
You can pay up their contract in full, which means they get the money they're owed and become free agents able to earn more on top elsewhere, so not many players would disagree. But it's a last resort.
I think for a registration to be ripped up you need mutual agreement. You cannot just throw money at a player unilaterally. They are still registered until either their contract lapses or they agree not to be. That’s my understanding at least. Players in the past have iirc turned down pay offs to stay registered with their club.

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Re: Should they stay or should they go? Summer 2021

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun May 16, 2021 6:47 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 6:29 pm
I think for a registration to be ripped up you need mutual agreement. You cannot just throw money at a player unilaterally. They are still registered until either their contract lapses or they agree not to be. That’s my understanding at least. Players in the past have iirc turned down pay offs to stay registered with their club.
Not sure on that - a contract is an agreement to pay certain amounts, rather than to have people around the building. What you're saying is possible, but it sounds weird.

Many players have turned down pay-offs, but only partial ones as clubs tried to cut their losses. (You're not cutting your losses if you pay them; you're just expediting the loss of capital.) If they're only offered partial pay-off, they're quite entitled to stay around; but if they're offered a full pay-off, to hang around would take the sort of mindset perhaps best explored by qualified psychiatrists.

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