Sam Allardyce

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by Harry Genshaw » Fri May 21, 2021 1:51 pm

I remember at the time pondering why it was imperative we stayed in the division when each year our debts kept increasing. PG put my mind at rest when he said the real debt was 'only' £10m as Eddie wouldn't want his loans back. It still seems an extraordinary feck up to end up as the basket case we did.
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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 21, 2021 2:48 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 1:51 pm
I remember at the time pondering why it was imperative we stayed in the division when each year our debts kept increasing. PG put my mind at rest when he said the real debt was 'only' £10m as Eddie wouldn't want his loans back. It still seems an extraordinary feck up to end up as the basket case we did.
I guess PG didn't forsee how we'd become so absolutely dependent on ED writing further and further cheques and then ceasing to do so entirely.

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri May 21, 2021 2:54 pm

Most clubs are in debt to someone. Many of them would go under if those debts are recalled. We seemed to have an ideal creditor, so beloved his face still appears atop these pages, but then he pulled the plug and the club nearly died. Instead we got a charlatan shyster - one that many of us quite liked while he was inside the tent pissing out - and then the cub nearly died again.

The only way to avoid debt is not to spend more than we earn. It seems simple in most businesses, but it's the exception in football, especially in the second tier – and I don't want a bar of it any more. As far as I can see the only second-tier team budgeting anything like sensibly is Rotherham – and they've just had their third relegation from it in five years. But better that than being in debt and facing extinction. Maybe one day all this shit will calm down and we can start playing football again.

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 21, 2021 3:27 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 2:54 pm
Most clubs are in debt to someone. Many of them would go under if those debts are recalled. We seemed to have an ideal creditor, so beloved his face still appears atop these pages, but then he pulled the plug and the club nearly died. Instead we got a charlatan shyster - one that many of us quite liked while he was inside the tent pissing out - and then the cub nearly died again.

The only way to avoid debt is not to spend more than we earn. It seems simple in most businesses, but it's the exception in football, especially in the second tier – and I don't want a bar of it any more. As far as I can see the only second-tier team budgeting anything like sensibly is Rotherham – and they've just had their third relegation from it in five years. But better that than being in debt and facing extinction. Maybe one day all this shit will calm down and we can start playing football again.
I guess most clubs have owners who when they think 'this is getting beyond me' sell the football club on. Usually when the club is in a great place.

ED I'm told was offered talks to sell when in the premiership to potential foreign owners but refused. He wanted it to stay in local hands. I think if you add it all up it means ED never expected to have to pull the plug abruptly either. Funnily enough in a way history sort of repeated itself as Ken Anderson after promotion had a really good offer on the table to sell - but giddy on his own success decided to stick on and not sell. Had he sold then who knows where we'd be now?

Cest la vie.

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by Bruce Rioja » Fri May 21, 2021 3:44 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 1:51 pm
PG put my mind at rest when he said the real debt was 'only' £10m as Eddie wouldn't want his loans back.
Really? His blaze 'It's not really debt, it's owed to one man who doesn't want it back, and hey, we own the car park' scared the shit out of me. I said to Our Kid at the time - Davies isn't going to live forever and how benevolent towards BWFC are his family members likely to be, as they watch him squandering their inheritance?!

The state we found / still find ourselves in could be seen coming over a decade ago.
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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri May 21, 2021 3:49 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 3:27 pm
I guess most clubs have owners who when they think 'this is getting beyond me' sell the football club on. Usually when the club is in a great place.

ED I'm told was offered talks to sell when in the premiership to potential foreign owners but refused. He wanted it to stay in local hands. I think if you add it all up it means ED never expected to have to pull the plug abruptly either. Funnily enough in a way history sort of repeated itself as Ken Anderson after promotion had a really good offer on the table to sell - but giddy on his own success decided to stick on and not sell. Had he sold then who knows where we'd be now?
In hock to someone else - the BooHoo boys, or someone we'e never heard of. Point is, whoever they are, when they get bored, the club gets f**ked. Look at Derby, who were achingly close to the Premier League but are now suffering a parade of chancers as Mel Morris tries to sell up. Look at their final-day shootout victims Sheffield Wednesday – who actually got their Rich Foreign Owner and bent various rules beyond breaking point trying to keep money in the club (eg citing "Elev8" "D Taxis" as sponsors even though neither really exists).

The only hope is that whoever you're in debt to writes it off. In that way Eddie was one of the kindest owners on record - but even then we still nearly died. While they're living beyond their means, most football clubs defy the rules of sensible business and are as subject to caprice as a kept housewife – actually, less so: divorce laws will protect her, but winding-up courts will rightly laugh at what passes for business planning in football.

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by Harry Genshaw » Fri May 21, 2021 3:56 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 3:44 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 1:51 pm
PG put my mind at rest when he said the real debt was 'only' £10m as Eddie wouldn't want his loans back.
Really? His blaze 'It's not really debt, it's owed to one man who doesn't want it back, and hey, we own the car park' scared the shit out of me. I said to Our Kid at the time - Davies isn't going to live forever and how benevolent towards BWFC are his family members likely to be, as they watch him squandering their inheritance?!

The state we found / still find ourselves in could be seen coming over a decade ago.
Really. Knowing nowt about the world of high finance and unable to sustain any interest in Bunden Leisure, Moonshift, Fildraw and all those other groups that made up the complex network of money behind BWFC, I was more than happy with Phils assurances of "we'll be reet".

I'm not sure I'd have been as relaxed if I'd known Phil was talking shite again and this whole unsustainable business model was dependent on us staying in the Premier league forever. Any football fan knew that a club like ours would get relegated sooner or later. To paraphrase George Osborne, use the sunny days to fix your roof.
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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 21, 2021 4:30 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 3:49 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 3:27 pm
I guess most clubs have owners who when they think 'this is getting beyond me' sell the football club on. Usually when the club is in a great place.

ED I'm told was offered talks to sell when in the premiership to potential foreign owners but refused. He wanted it to stay in local hands. I think if you add it all up it means ED never expected to have to pull the plug abruptly either. Funnily enough in a way history sort of repeated itself as Ken Anderson after promotion had a really good offer on the table to sell - but giddy on his own success decided to stick on and not sell. Had he sold then who knows where we'd be now?
In hock to someone else - the BooHoo boys, or someone we'e never heard of. Point is, whoever they are, when they get bored, the club gets f**ked. Look at Derby, who were achingly close to the Premier League but are now suffering a parade of chancers as Mel Morris tries to sell up. Look at their final-day shootout victims Sheffield Wednesday – who actually got their Rich Foreign Owner and bent various rules beyond breaking point trying to keep money in the club (eg citing "Elev8" "D Taxis" as sponsors even though neither really exists).

The only hope is that whoever you're in debt to writes it off. In that way Eddie was one of the kindest owners on record - but even then we still nearly died. While they're living beyond their means, most football clubs defy the rules of sensible business and are as subject to caprice as a kept housewife – actually, less so: divorce laws will protect her, but winding-up courts will rightly laugh at what passes for business planning in football.
All these examples are owners clinging on till they can’t any longer rather than selling when on the up.

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri May 21, 2021 11:51 pm

Such as?

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by bw@bw » Sat May 22, 2021 9:02 am

Sam Allardyce is the best English-born manager since Brian Clough - discuss

His innovations and achievements when he was with us were exceptional, but he had an image problem which he was never going to overcome.

He deserved the chance to manage on a bigger stage. Newcastle should have been that place, but the change of ownership ruined it. Mike Ashley failed to do full due diligence and over-paid by £130million. If I had been the owner, I would have sold on those terms.
He did well to get another chance, with England, but when it came, he blew it.

He did not help himself. He did not endear himself to the fans at West Ham and particularly Everton. So he will be forever branded as the Red Adair of the Premier League.
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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by Worthy4England » Sat May 22, 2021 12:37 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 3:27 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 2:54 pm
Most clubs are in debt to someone. Many of them would go under if those debts are recalled. We seemed to have an ideal creditor, so beloved his face still appears atop these pages, but then he pulled the plug and the club nearly died. Instead we got a charlatan shyster - one that many of us quite liked while he was inside the tent pissing out - and then the cub nearly died again.

The only way to avoid debt is not to spend more than we earn. It seems simple in most businesses, but it's the exception in football, especially in the second tier – and I don't want a bar of it any more. As far as I can see the only second-tier team budgeting anything like sensibly is Rotherham – and they've just had their third relegation from it in five years. But better that than being in debt and facing extinction. Maybe one day all this shit will calm down and we can start playing football again.
I guess most clubs have owners who when they think 'this is getting beyond me' sell the football club on. Usually when the club is in a great place.

ED I'm told was offered talks to sell when in the premiership to potential foreign owners but refused. He wanted it to stay in local hands. I think if you add it all up it means ED never expected to have to pull the plug abruptly either. Funnily enough in a way history sort of repeated itself as Ken Anderson after promotion had a really good offer on the table to sell - but giddy on his own success decided to stick on and not sell. Had he sold then who knows where we'd be now?

Cest la vie.
You keep coming to this "pulled the plug abruptly" line. We were trimming our registration costs significantly from 2011 (-£40m from then until 2014) and we were trimming our salary costs from 2011 (-£22m from then until 2014). I think you're adding the wrong things up, to support your view. We didn't file for Admin until 2018. The withdrawal of continuous "whatever you can eat" funding did not just jump out of a corner and shout "Boo".

Garty's interview in 2014 says that not once did we turn down an offer, because none were made and they said "no" not us...

The other thing is, there were restrictions at the time around how much an owner could actually put in under FFP. In 2014, Garty says we owed £160m to ED which is pretty much borne out in the accounts (Net debt £163m in 2013). So with this abrupt switch off of money, how do you account for that debt rising to £193m in Andersons first accounts in 2013? The 2015 Accounts show an £11m loan facility from Fildraw in 2015...

The money didn't just get switched off...It was still being shelled out by ED in significant amounts when he no longer owned the Club...

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by Worthy4England » Sat May 22, 2021 12:49 pm


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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat May 22, 2021 1:07 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 12:49 pm
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... -chairman/

Link to BEN interview....
PG told me personally that they’d had serious foreign interest during the premiership years and ED had said no. It lines up in part with the interview of ‘you have to be careful who you sell it to’. ED didn’t want the club in foreign ownership.

I think that abruptly is the wrong word but post relegation ED made money available for signings. There was an acknowledgement at the time that he was reducing his commitment but I don’t think they (PG and the board) saw him absolutely stopping all funding. Least that is my impression from a couple of conversations. There was work to put a consortium together led by PG to take over from ED in time and I think the need for that to be ready was sooner than they expected.

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by Worthy4England » Sat May 22, 2021 1:21 pm

But the amount that he continued to put in, during the time you're contending it stopped, pretty much aligns to the FFP caps that had come into force in the same period. So it wouldn't have mattered if we'd needed £1 or £1.2m for the tax bill, or £0.5m in wages. No one could've put it in without breaching FFP, at which point the FFP breach fine would've pushed us over anyhow.

Serious foreign interest doesn't mean any offer was ever made, so both could be true. PG is on the record somewhere saying similar (that down the years there was interest), but you wouldn't sell whilst you were building the Club up necessarily. Nor does serious foreign interest mean "what a good thing this is", long term nor that there was guaranteed investment nor that they didn't turn out like Wigan's foreign interest etc.

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat May 22, 2021 2:32 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 1:21 pm
But the amount that he continued to put in, during the time you're contending it stopped, pretty much aligns to the FFP caps that had come into force in the same period. So it wouldn't have mattered if we'd needed £1 or £1.2m for the tax bill, or £0.5m in wages. No one could've put it in without breaching FFP, at which point the FFP breach fine would've pushed us over anyhow.

Serious foreign interest doesn't mean any offer was ever made, so both could be true. PG is on the record somewhere saying similar (that down the years there was interest), but you wouldn't sell whilst you were building the Club up necessarily. Nor does serious foreign interest mean "what a good thing this is", long term nor that there was guaranteed investment nor that they didn't turn out like Wigan's foreign interest etc.
I agree entirely. Not suggesting at all that foreign interest would have ever bought us or if they had it would be a good thing. But there is a pattern where clubs who are reliant on owners covering losses need to sell at the right time or they all invariably end up in big trouble. It’s not always possible. In his attempts to leave Bolton in the right hands ED unwittingly left us in the worst possible hands. Thankfully he left enough in that those hands couldn’t entirely destroy us.

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by Worthy4England » Sun May 23, 2021 12:42 am

Who sold at the right time? Just as a point if interest?

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by bw@bw » Sun May 23, 2021 8:57 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 12:42 am
Who sold at the right time? Just as a point if interest?
Swansea?
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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun May 23, 2021 10:35 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 12:42 am
Who sold at the right time? Just as a point if interest?
Yeah, I've been scratching my head trying to think of an example.
bw@bw wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 8:57 am
Swansea?
Might feel like it now but it hasn't on several occasions since the Americans bought out Huw Jenkins in 2016 – when they were a Premier League club. Fans watching subsequent struggles under Bob Bradley, Paul Clement and Carlos Carvalhal might not have particularly thought things were looking up - and they're still in a much poorer league than when the takeover happened.

I think we have to define our terms first: the "right time" for vendor, buyer or club? Or all three? I could probably name sellers who've walked away from a dumpster fire with bulging pockets; I can think of clubs who've benefited from a change of ownership; and I could probably name buyers who've got on board at just the right time – but it's hard to think of a transaction where all three parties benefit.

Let's think of a comparison with which we can all presumably identify: the housing market. If Dora and Jim buy their house for £500 in 1960, and after nearly half a century they sell to young Jordan and Chloe-Louise for £100,000 – slightly under the market price, but they like the young 'uns and there's a baby on the way – then presumably everyone's happy, including the set-to be-renovated house. (Unless and until, that is, there's a global financial crisis, Jordan loses his job in PR and housing prices plummet...)

Alright, maybe that's more complicated. But you get the drift. I'm after a Goldilocks takeover where the seller is happy to sell and gets a square deal, the buyer is happy with the price, and the club kicks on thereafter. You know the only one I think comes close? Man City – Shinawatra got to sell out, Mansour could afford it, City kicked on. Oh and even then Shinawatra was only selling because his finances were f**ked and the club was about to pop - and he's now living in exile after being found guilty of corruption. Happy days!

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by Worthy4England » Sun May 23, 2021 11:07 am

Agree DSB, it's a pretty moot point. Swansea don't own their ground, the £27m came out of the public purse, so in one sense it's not a fair comparison as the debt related to owning a stadium isn't on their books...Maybe Leicester or Chelsea but then again there was a time when we were touted as a model...folks forget over time, things like the 2008 financial crash, FFP etc., which probably impacted in ways not clearly understood on most owners. Unless you have someone with almost unlimited write off power for the cash drain you're going to come unstuck at some point. Best you can hope is that someone drives the dream for a while....

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Re: Sam Allardyce

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun May 23, 2021 11:29 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 11:07 am
Agree DSB, it's a pretty moot point. Swansea don't own their ground, the £27m came out of the public purse, so in one sense it's not a fair comparison as the debt related to owning a stadium isn't on their books...Maybe Leicester or Chelsea but then again there was a time when we were touted as a model...folks forget over time, things like the 2008 financial crash, FFP etc., which probably impacted in ways not clearly understood on most owners. Unless you have someone with almost unlimited write off power for the cash drain you're going to come unstuck at some point. Best you can hope is that someone drives the dream for a while....
Yeah, maybe. Chelsea not dissimilar to City I suppose - club owners on the bones of their arse, bought out by hyper-rich owner with a background that some might describe as distasteful, trophies follow...

Leicester - yeah, fair idea. Milan Mandaric sold for something like £40m – he'd bought it for something like £6m three years earlier, so presumably even with expenditure he left richer than he arrived. He then left to buy Sheffield Wednesday, ostensibly for £1 but wiping out debts, and sold four years later for £37.5m to Dejphon Chansiri – so I guess he's happy...

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