Loaning our young players

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Loaning our young players

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:58 am

I'd heard a couple of weeks back that Politic was likely to go out on loan and indeed I posted as such on here. But seems now it is 'confirmed' by the Bolton News as to be a likely outcome. Marc Iles also suggests on twitter there is a strong chance Darcy will go out too. Evatt yesterday said youngsters were going to go out for experience.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... -spl-loan/

Now no doubt there will be a lot of teeth grinding over this. But I think its probably the right call especially in Politic's case. He needs games. He's not played very much senior men's football and he's 21. He's probably not played many more games than years he's been on this earth. This for me will mean if he doesn't play regular football somewhere now he will in a year or two be shuffled out the back door and probably be plying his trade in non league football trying to climb back up the pyramid or exit the game completely. Which would be a shame.

Darcy I'm a bit more torn on as I think he'd be a better player than Delfouneso right now. He also offers a bit of something different in midfield and he's definitely bulked up and is stronger. But equally I can't see him playing a lot and again for his development he needs to go and get regular men's football - somewhere he can play.

I'd like both to be 6 months deals that can be reviewed in January to see how they are doing. Ideally bring them back in for a week's training to assess whether to send them out again.

But I do think this is the right call. Any other thoughts?

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by officer_dibble » Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:17 am

Absolutely agree - interesting that they are talking about Scottish top flight for Politic- I can’t make my mind up if I would rather he were in league two? Darcy would benefit from 6 months somewhere, but like you I’d rather see him that Delfouneso now who has rather blown his career up here now. Chucked his chance away Tuesday by not working hard enough.

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by The_Gun » Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:37 am

I think six month loans make sense for both Politic and Darcy if they're not getting game time here. This new reserve team will be good for the players in first team contention who have missed out in the league in any given week, plus the better youth players, but Politic and Darcy are at stages where they need to be playing regularly in competitive men's football.

Interesting that Politic is being linked with SPL teams - do we have particular connections with any of the clubs up there? I'm guessing it's not going to be the Old Firm, either of the Edinburgh teams or Aberdeen.

Darcy I'd say is definitely good enough to be a starter at League Two level, perhaps one of our local sides like Oldham or Rochdale?

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by officer_dibble » Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:27 am

Hadn’t appreciated politics contract is up this summer - wonder if we can tie him down to an extension first?

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by LeverEnd » Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:08 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:27 am
Hadn’t appreciated politics contract is up this summer - wonder if we can tie him down to an extension first?
If we don't I doubt we'll see him again, but is there any point if Evatt isn't keen? He's probably not on much so another year makes sense because he does seem talented. We've thought that about lots of young players who've done very little in the end.
Evatt isn't going to play him it seems so a loan til Jan seems like the fairest thing. Will he be a regular start in the Scottish prem though? No point him being in someone else's reserves.
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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:36 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:08 pm
officer_dibble wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:27 am
Hadn’t appreciated politics contract is up this summer - wonder if we can tie him down to an extension first?
If we don't I doubt we'll see him again, but is there any point if Evatt isn't keen? He's probably not on much so another year makes sense because he does seem talented. We've thought that about lots of young players who've done very little in the end.
Evatt isn't going to play him it seems so a loan til Jan seems like the fairest thing. Will he be a regular start in the Scottish prem though? No point him being in someone else's reserves.
Is it a case of not being keen or a case of having a young lad who isn't fit to play (had cramp after an hour in the last friendly) with a lot of more senior options ahead of him?

I think the thing is its not like if he'd played Politic on Tuesday he'd have been full pelt - he will need time to build his confidence up in both himself and his body after the injury. We're not as a club at the point anymore where we just play whoever can stand up, we've built a squad and have more senior (and at this time arguably better) players than Politic. So I'm not convinced its 'Evatt doesn't rate him' more that he's not at a point he can play for us yet needs lots of games somehow....

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:47 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:36 pm
We're not as a club at the point anymore where we just play whoever can stand up, we've built a squad and have more senior (and at this time arguably better) players than Politic.
I;m questioning what "senior" means. Politic is 21, not exactly a junior, and surely "If they're good enough, they're old enough" applies?
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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by LeverEnd » Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:21 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:36 pm
LeverEnd wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:08 pm
officer_dibble wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:27 am
Hadn’t appreciated politics contract is up this summer - wonder if we can tie him down to an extension first?
If we don't I doubt we'll see him again, but is there any point if Evatt isn't keen? He's probably not on much so another year makes sense because he does seem talented. We've thought that about lots of young players who've done very little in the end.
Evatt isn't going to play him it seems so a loan til Jan seems like the fairest thing. Will he be a regular start in the Scottish prem though? No point him being in someone else's reserves.
Is it a case of not being keen or a case of having a young lad who isn't fit to play (had cramp after an hour in the last friendly) with a lot of more senior options ahead of him?

I think the thing is its not like if he'd played Politic on Tuesday he'd have been full pelt - he will need time to build his confidence up in both himself and his body after the injury. We're not as a club at the point anymore where we just play whoever can stand up, we've built a squad and have more senior (and at this time arguably better) players than Politic. So I'm not convinced its 'Evatt doesn't rate him' more that he's not at a point he can play for us yet needs lots of games somehow....
I really don't know, was wondering that's all. Evatt appears to be a fair and decent man manager and I'm siure he'll not be writing him off, but also he might not see enough to commit the club to another year.
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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:37 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:36 pm
We're not as a club at the point anymore where we just play whoever can stand up, we've built a squad and have more senior (and at this time arguably better) players than Politic.
I;m questioning what "senior" means. Politic is 21, not exactly a junior, and surely "If they're good enough, they're old enough" applies?
He's 21 sure - but he's not played close to a full season of football yet even if you add up all his appearances thus far. So in terms of experience he's a junior. But I think the call right now is that he's needing minutes and already you are seeing our top scorer from last season potentially and justifiably not keep his immediate place. So not convinced Politic who isn't fit and flying would get ahead of our other options. If he goes out we'll find out if he can get fit and flying and then IE can make that decision. But my point is who will you drop for the next 6 games to nurse a semi-fit and rusty Politic back in your first team?

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:03 pm

Could it be - could it possibly be - run with me here - that Politic has become Pele in absentia, as per others before, Andranik et al? He showed promise and I would love him to fulfil it but I don’t think he’s a first-team shoo-in for us so let him go on loan.

Danger is that if he plays well for I dunno St Johnstone or summat, they can sign him on a pre-contract in January…

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by The_Gun » Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:12 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:37 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:36 pm
We're not as a club at the point anymore where we just play whoever can stand up, we've built a squad and have more senior (and at this time arguably better) players than Politic.
I;m questioning what "senior" means. Politic is 21, not exactly a junior, and surely "If they're good enough, they're old enough" applies?
He's 21 sure - but he's not played close to a full season of football yet even if you add up all his appearances thus far. So in terms of experience he's a junior. But I think the call right now is that he's needing minutes and already you are seeing our top scorer from last season potentially and justifiably not keep his immediate place. So not convinced Politic who isn't fit and flying would get ahead of our other options. If he goes out we'll find out if he can get fit and flying and then IE can make that decision. But my point is who will you drop for the next 6 games to nurse a semi-fit and rusty Politic back in your first team?
I don't think many people think Politic would be playing for us in the league in the near future, so if he stayed here it would be the Johnston's Paint and reserve league (when does that start?) to build his fitness up. If he did show something over the next couple of months then I could see a situation where he was competing with Isgrove and Delf for a place in the squad, whereas if we send him on loan and he does well we run the risk, as previously mentioned, of him buggering off permanently.

On balance I am in favour of sending him to a club where he will get regular starts, although doesn't it seem a stretch that many SPL teams would take a League One kid coming off a long term injury and chuck him straight into their first team?

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by officer_dibble » Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:16 pm

Answer would be trying to tie Politic down to a year extension before he goes. Which we may well be doing I guess! Darcy i suspect is more likely to not be up for extending given he has been fully fit and barely played. However he’s a lot younger, so again if we can extend by a year or two, let’s do it. We’re a different club now to the one which let youngster after youngster go for buttons.

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by The_Gun » Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:20 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:16 pm
Answer would be trying to tie Politic down to a year extension before he goes. Which we may well be doing I guess! Darcy i suspect is more likely to not be up for extending given he has been fully fit and barely played. However he’s a lot younger, so again if we can extend by a year or two, let’s do it. We’re a different club now to the one which let youngster after youngster go for buttons.
Although he looks like he should still be in school, Ronan actually turns 21 in November, so they're not far apart in age.

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:29 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:03 pm
Could it be - could it possibly be - run with me here - that Politic has become Pele in absentia, as per others before, Andranik et al? He showed promise and I would love him to fulfil it but I don’t think he’s a first-team shoo-in for us so let him go on loan.

Danger is that if he plays well for I dunno St Johnstone or summat, they can sign him on a pre-contract in January…
Yep absolutely. Some of the suggestions about how good he is elsewhere seem a bit ridiculous. It also remains to be seen how much the injury has impacted him.

Our best three players in that season (other than loanees) were probably Crawford, Politic and Darcy. Given Crawford had a poor season last time the league below (for both Evatt and Hill) and Darcy seemingly couldn't get in our side you start to ask whether perhaps these players shone more due to the lack of anything else around them and the fact that realistically there was zero pressure. Its a different ball game now.

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by chester white » Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:48 pm

Exactly… they were dark times that season and unfortunately it didn’t take much to shine.

That’s not to say he’s not good enough or anything of the sort, but some of the hysteria I’ve read on social media about him going out on loan is baffling.
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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by Whitesince63 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:00 pm

At the end of the day IE knows what he wants from the players and right now both Denis and Ronan aren’t it so of course it’s right to send them out on loan so they can get game time. I think there is some merit in the suggestion that both might have actually been perceived as better than they were because they were young and playing in a pretty poor team and everybody wants our youngsters to succeed. In Politics case, I think he would have been a regular when IE first arrived but for his injury but now we’ve gone up a league and brought better and ready players in. Let them both go out on loan until January and then we can hopefully make a better decision on them.

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by irie Cee Bee » Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:08 pm

A loan spell for for Politic and Darcy are opportunities for them to improve while playing regular football. Not sure I would want to tie them down to another year contract to take up two valuable spots unless I am sure that they can cut it in the Championship (yes, I know I am being optimistic). At the moment however, they cannot make our 1st eleven or bench so why do that? Six month loan, and if they do well, we can discuss the contract.

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:24 pm

irie Cee Bee wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:08 pm
A loan spell for for Politic and Darcy are opportunities for them to improve while playing regular football. Not sure I would want to tie them down to another year contract to take up two valuable spots unless I am sure that they can cut it in the Championship (yes, I know I am being optimistic). At the moment however, they cannot make our 1st eleven or bench so why do that? Six month loan, and if they do well, we can discuss the contract.
This is a good point. Being born in 2000, Dennis and Ronan are in their final season as underage players; if contracted to next season they would count against the limit (currently 22 in the lower divisions, 25 in the Champo).

For the record, none of the other underage players get “too old” next season, or even the season after that. Not even Tomo.

OVERAGE FROM 2022/23
Dennis Politic (5/3/00)
Ronan Darcy (4/11/00)

OVERAGE FROM 2023/24
-

OVERAGE FROM 2024/25
George Thomason (12/1/02)
Adam Senior (20/1/02)
Matthew Alexander (7/5/02)
Luke Hutchinson (1/9/02)
Jay Fitzmartin (14/9/02)

OVERAGE FROM 2025/26
Ryan Colvin (8/1/03)
Fin Lockett (20/4/03)

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by The_Gun » Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:41 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:24 pm
irie Cee Bee wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:08 pm
A loan spell for for Politic and Darcy are opportunities for them to improve while playing regular football. Not sure I would want to tie them down to another year contract to take up two valuable spots unless I am sure that they can cut it in the Championship (yes, I know I am being optimistic). At the moment however, they cannot make our 1st eleven or bench so why do that? Six month loan, and if they do well, we can discuss the contract.
This is a good point. Being born in 2000, Dennis and Ronan are in their final season as underage players; if contracted to next season they would count against the limit (currently 22 in the lower divisions, 25 in the Champo).

For the record, none of the other underage players get “too old” next season, or even the season after that. Not even Tomo.

OVERAGE FROM 2022/23
Dennis Politic (5/3/00)
Ronan Darcy (4/11/00)

OVERAGE FROM 2023/24
-

OVERAGE FROM 2024/25
George Thomason (12/1/02)
Adam Senior (20/1/02)
Matthew Alexander (7/5/02)
Luke Hutchinson (1/9/02)
Jay Fitzmartin (14/9/02)

OVERAGE FROM 2025/26
Ryan Colvin (8/1/03)
Fin Lockett (20/4/03)
I think Thomason is actually a year older than that (2001 birth according to Wikipedia and club website).

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Re: Loaning our young players

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:20 pm

Interesting - ta

So he still has two seasons including this one

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