Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

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Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:57 am

I've been sort of hovering to post this for a while but its always felt dangerous and presumptuous and well it still is. But if it all falls apart spectacularly it won't be because of a post on the internet.

I've been a critic of Evatt and to some extent he's still not that much my cup of tea. Lot of modern managerisms that perhaps just rub me up the wrong way. But no doubt he has something about him that is able to unite the group of players he has and crucially make others want to join. I was wrong last season and happy to have been wrong. There is a real fight and togetherness about this group of players evident in each game we've played. And whether the result was good or disappointing I've not actually ever felt worried as yet (its early days but I suspect it will continue in this way). Yes we're going to lose games, have bad runs, get some injuries - like every club does in most seasons - I have no doubt the season will be rocky. But I'm not worried - I'm not, even if we lose a few on the spin going to particularly sweat it - like maybe we and especially I have in the past. And the reason is that I just think we've a manager and a group of players who can and will eventually be able to pull together and dig it out. The desire, will and crucially togetherness is there allied to enough talent to eventually steer the ship right IMO.

Now there is also just a hint of some magic dust being sprinkled - we're not just a good team for me we're starting to share some qualities of (whisper it) that Bruce Rioch transformation where not only did we create the spirit, discipline and togetherness but we also had a squad with footballing character. You can see that a bit in this team, be it, Santos who plays unlike many CBs I've seen, Johnston who looks like a great, if diminutive addition, grafters like Jones and Williams (both hardworking but distinctive in their own way), exciting forward options all bringing a bit of different footballing character to the table. Its a hard thing to define but the players seem likeable. They are all distinctive as opposed to for example watching the likes of Jack Hobbs or Sam Ricketts or Joe Williams or insert any number of players who all were probably decent but you'd not really notice them on the pitch over and above any other generic talented defender or midfield player etc...It probably doesn't make sense this but it just means we've got interesting players who stand out individually on the pitch to watch I think.

Evatt is seemingly trying to build a connection with the fans, something again that I'm not sure any manager has consciously attempted since Bruce Rioch really - and its creating some interesting parallels. Evatt has an advantage that he's got a board and owners who are unusually popular and also have a similar mission. Off the pitch things are at least seemingly stable after a decade of horrible turbulence and unsettling scenarios. I'm certainly not suggesting we've got either stuff on or off the pitch cracked and we can all celebrate - we're far from being there. But the overall feeling round the place is in my view better than its been since probably 2003/4 ish time. And that's pretty significant. Very significant.

Football is cruel. It can give you a glimpse and snatch it away again all too quickly and all too easily. And things often do change in the blink of an eye. We all went to Wembley back in 2011 with hope - certainly even the most pessimistic fans wouldn't have labelled that game as being the gut wrenching defeat and fast-track to demise it ultimately became. But that's football especially modern day football at clubs with fewer resources than many. So I'm not predicting promotion or a cup final. At all. In fact I'd say using my head we're short of the top 6 probably. But luck with injuries and spirit takes you a long way....but we're possibly and arguably now at a point where it doesn't matter so much. If we miss out we've got another go next season and the ingredients are right for progress be it immediate or a bit delayed. And that's not a place we've inhabited for a long while - every season has felt critical not just for the team but for the future of the club. Last season for me was that. Getting stuck in league 2 would have been disastrous. But we escaped and I do pose the question - are we on the verge of the next great Bolton Wanderers adventure?

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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by The_Gun » Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:30 am

Did you over-do it on the coffee this morning or what, pal? Never before seen levels of positivity from yourself.

I jest, but as someone who actually is disposed to over-optimism when it comes to Bolton Wanderers, I have to say that I am absolutely inclined to agree with the sentiment you so eloquently espouse in the above post.

To balance out some of the unbridled buoyancy that we are seemingly all feeling right now, I could foresee some issues with personnel retention if we fail to get promoted this season. On the playing side I'm thinking about the likes of Williams, Santos, Dapo and Johnston, but perhaps a much more significant risk could be retaining the services of our glorious leader. I'm sure what's going on here is not going unnoticed, and could we be absolutely confident Evatt would stay put if he received an offer from a Championship club? Not something that's particularly worth worrying about until it happens, but that's the kind of thing that frequently happens to clubs on an upward trajectory (see Dons, MK).

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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:52 am

Que sera, sera. COME ON YOU WHITES.. :pray:
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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:25 am

Interesting piece, thanks for writing it. But I'd have to say the answer is no. We've either already witnessed the start of something special - with the spring run - or it's a false dawn.

I adore Evattball, in truth a bit more than I admire the garrulous and slightly prickly bloke behind it. I've been thinking, possibly even posting, tentative Rioch comparisons and I do think there's something of the moral crusade about both of them. Obviously, obviously, Evatt has a lot to do to reach parity but he's already done something no other BWFC manager bar Bruce has done in recent history (if ever), with promotion at the first attempt.

And like Bruce he hasn't done it in a fraction-seeking, functional way, but with a commitment to attacking football. I enjoyed the Parkinson promotion season but this football is levels above that. This is, at best, the sort of joy I got from watching Okocha and Djorkaeff swap 50-yard crossfield balls, or Toddy's team tearing the second tier apart, or Coyle's side cutting through Blackpool with intricate passing in the final 20 yards.

Note, though, that two of those three eras ended in failure, and the other in the manager absconding – as did Bruce. I don't overly worry that Evatt will leave just yet; I think he has things as he likes them here all the way from ownership to youth teams, and is savvy enough to realise that it would take a lot of work elsewhere to get his bread similarly buttered.

Like Allardyce he is clearly never going to suffer from a shortage of ego or self-confidence, so he may eventually seek greener grass, but perhaps not yet. (Forced to bet, I'd say it might be in a couple of years when Bolton struggle to establish themselves in the ludicrous, lethal money-pit that is the second division; at that point, we would have to consider/chase a new funding model which could fundamentally alter the laudable Sharon-led structure.)

The other alternative presented by recent history is that it all falls apart, as it did with Coyle's blindness to the inherent limitations of a 4-4-2 without the Kante-like Holden, or Todd's inability to balance the attacking elan which destroyed the second division with the defensive organisation needed in the top flight. I would hope that Evatt has enough headroom to avoid the hubris, and he has certainly made tough decisions that admit his culpability – such as dropping Crellin for Gilks, then arguably Gilks for Dixon – plus of course the huge tactical overhaul from a back three to a back four, the one which curiously was exactly the opposite of the switch that fired Barrow to domination. Either way, the openness to change is an encouraging sign.

So it could end in disappointment, it could end in disillusionment. They say that all political careers end in failure and it's far from inaccurate to say the same about football management; even the Imperial Lord Ferg's legacy was somewhat tarnished by the underachievement of the squad he left behind, not to mention his personally anointed successor.

But perhaps the best way is not to worry or even speculate on the future. Live it, and enjoy it, from game to game and day to day. There were times recently when every new game and almost every new day as a Bolton fan brought new horror. Now we, and an ever-expanding number of likeminded souls, can head to the match like Lowry's stickmen before us with our heads held high in anticipation and excitement.

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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:20 pm

^^Agree with most of that - success and periods of success are always temporary. And whilst you could say it started last season I feel that the magic dust feeling is there right now but perhaps because we were locked behind screens last season it didn't feel that way.

Regardless - I agree with much of your analysis. I enjoy the football we've played this season, more than last, primarily because we'd played with tempo and I prefer that to some of the more deliberate stuff last season. I don't mind Evatt as a character I guess I just find the whole modern manager speak he's fond of 'low block etc' grating. But no doubt he can relate to today's players and that's probably the skill we've not really had since Big Sam.

As for promoted at first attempt - Parky was. And then we've not had a manager win promotion full stop bar IE, PP going back to Big Sam. Both did it at their first attempts - in very different ways but they all count!

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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:22 pm

We've won one league game all season and conceded 6 goals in the other 2. Thrown away a 2 goal lead and scored a 95th minute equalizer. Giddy bastards! :-)

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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by boltonboris » Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:27 pm

Evatt is one of those characters, were he to manage another team, I probably wouldn't like him - The players clearly do and Evatt seems genuinely proud to manage our club. He's signed players who are seemingly very well rounded, likeable and genuinely nice people who also seem extremely proud and even privileged to play for us and that gratitude turns into spirit and attitude and the fans are bouncing off that.

He's uniting the club with the fans again and that's the thing he said he wanted to do more than anything in his first interview on camera.

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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by Prufrock » Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:29 pm

DSB, didn't Parky manage it at the first time of asking?

I broadly agree with the sentiments, though I would say it is often ephemeral. I *think* I felt similarly optimistic at the start under Coyle. Everyone wanted him, we got him, he kept us up, and then that first full year, with the cup run, top 8 (at the time). If you'd asked me at full time after the Birmingham game...

That said, it *feels* like there's more substance to this. Mainly because I think there's more nous to Evatt (well, vis-a-vis Coyle I'm fecking sure there is), and there's a bit more room before we hit the ceiling. This is a proper team collective and while there are of course important players, I don't think we're as reliant on the super-human efforts of the Muamba-Holden axis.

I also don't think we can be as unlucky again. We had under Coyle 3 players I think were top-4 level and then in Muamba, someone who did a very particular job very well that allowed others to flourish. We lost one to a career ending injury, another to a career ending illness, another to an almost career ending injury (and he was never the same again) and then another on the cheap as his contract neared it's end among all that chaos.

I'm not that worried about Evatt moving on yet. I have a theory that basically all managerial moves are a big risk as it can be quite hard to transfer success in one place to another. Obviously some people have managed it really well, but I think you want to minimise them as far as possible, especially as you move up the ladder. Evatt has said several times that the big attraction of this job was that he felt he could do what we wanted here which made it more attractive than jobs in League 1 at the time.

I suspect that's a bit of a white lie in that it's a big ask to get us in the prem and I'm sure in a dream world he'd want to manage one of the big clubs, but I think he'd want to go to an established prem team from us, rather than just go to a champo team and try to get them up. I think that's doable if he gets us up, and say mid-table Champo playing good stuff. Could see him going to a Brighton etc.

I'd be surprised if he left us to go to anything lower than an "expected to go up" champo team and don't see him getting that. Might change of we get stuck in league 1 mind.

Back to the subject, I think this is the blossoming of something pretty special. A pettier man than me would go and find my long post from January about how the building blocks were there and our change to a back 4 was going to be the catalyst for success :D
Last edited by Prufrock on Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by Harry Genshaw » Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:31 pm

There's definitely a Rioch feel around the place. Promotion in the first season, albeit a division lower and a greater connect between the team and the supporters. Winning always helps of course but so does style. I'd almost forgotten what it felt like to see my team play good football and players wanting the ball abd wanting to be creative.

As DSB says, success in football is fleeting, especially for the likes of us. Let's enjoy it, don't overthink it or fret about the future. It still bugs me that I missed Bayern Munich away because I'd racked a few things up on the credit card and didn't think I could justify the expense. Somewhere inside I probably thought "I'll go next time". What an idiot!

We've had a lot of crap to deal with this last 10 years. Let's embrace the here and now!
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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:34 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:20 pm
As for promoted at first attempt - Parky was. And then we've not had a manager win promotion full stop bar IE, PP going back to Big Sam.
Of course! Apologies. Didn't really count Allardyce as first-season because he took over in October, but again, it's another similarity.

Said for a while that someone who can combine the qualities of Rioch and Allardyce would be onto a winner. But that's easy said - I think Phil Brown's on record as trying...

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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by Harry Genshaw » Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:35 pm

Sam took 2 and a half seasons to take us up didn't he?
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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by sonicthewhite » Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:36 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:22 pm
We've won one league game all season and conceded 6 goals in the other 2. Thrown away a 2 goal lead and scored a 95th minute equalizer. Giddy bastards! :-)
Fun though 😁
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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:43 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:35 pm
Sam took 2 and a half seasons to take us up didn't he?
Nope - appointed Oct 99, promoted May 2001.
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Prufrock wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:29 pm
Evatt has said several times that the big attraction of this job was that he felt he could do what we wanted here which made it more attractive than jobs in League 1 at the time.

I suspect that's a bit of a white lie in that it's a big ask to get us in the prem and I'm sure in a dream world he'd want to manage one of the big clubs, but I think he'd want to go to an established prem team from us, rather than just go to a champo team and try to get them up. I think that's doable if he gets us up, and say mid-table Champo playing good stuff. Could see him going to a Brighton etc.
Yeah, I think he thinks the club has as much headroom as he does, at least for now.

Unlike Allardyce (or for that matter Sean Dyche) he won't have some routes blocked off by being perceived as "not playing the type f football that [insert deluded underachievers] supporters deserve."

As I say I think it might be finance that makes him jump, as it did with Sam – but if that's the reason, then let 'em go. Nobody is worth risking the club's future for.

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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:10 pm

On the possibility of Evatt being lured away....I don't think its an immediate risk. As of now to an external audience he's promoted a big club from league 2 that most expected to go up anyway.

Even promotion from league 1 next season say would not necessarily raise as many eyebrows as you might imagine. But at some point in the next 5 years I expect he will move on. What I will say is I highly doubt he gets a premiership gig unless we're literally banging on the door of the premiership without any further investment. Even then its a longshot. The premiership simply doesn't pick managers from down the pyramid.

So what he'd probably be looking at is a championship club recently or relatively recently relegated who have more resources thanks to parachute payments. Sheffield United in a years' time say. And such a move is obviously tempting but also hugely risky. We've all seen what can happen fairly quickly to clubs in the championship - 2 years ago Derby was a top job ready for someone to come in and take them the final step. Now look at them. So I think he will be very careful. The next bit of Evatt's career will define his ceiling as a manager. The honestly best thing for him would be to reach the premiership with Bolton. But that may not be possible. I suspect though if the club remains stable he'll give it a fair time to find out before risking something else.

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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by LeverEnd » Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:51 pm

A glorious cup run as well as a promotion might raise his profile enough, but I agree he's unlikely to get a better offer. It's still early days for him really but he's doing very well, and like you I'm very happy to have been wrong about him last season.
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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:03 pm

It's part loyalty but more about headroom.

At Barrow, Division Four is a brave new world (except for people who've been matchgoers for five decades), and there are always going to be problems moving that club into higher echelons. At Bolton, the stadium and recent history - not to mention geographical situation - makes a Premier League place far from infeasible, given the right financial backing (and more financial backing has always been on FV's radar if the club reached tier two).

For Evatt, he may have thought he could drag Barrow to another strong season but he was always more likely to achieve longer-term goals with Bolton. As I say he will probably still think that for a while yet, unless and until his continued personal improvement gave him a chance at a big job (Premier club if we're second-tier, or second-tier contender if we're third-tier). And as noted, he will have to weigh up the risks with the benefits.

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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by LeverEnd » Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:30 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:03 pm
It's part loyalty but more about headroom.

At Barrow, Division Four is a brave new world (except for people who've been matchgoers for five decades), and there are always going to be problems moving that club into higher echelons. At Bolton, the stadium and recent history - not to mention geographical situation - makes a Premier League place far from infeasible, given the right financial backing (and more financial backing has always been on FV's radar if the club reached tier two).

For Evatt, he may have thought he could drag Barrow to another strong season but he was always more likely to achieve longer-term goals with Bolton. As I say he will probably still think that for a while yet, unless and until his continued personal improvement gave him a chance at a big job (Premier club if we're second-tier, or second-tier contender if we're third-tier). And as noted, he will have to weigh up the risks with the benefits.
The headroom is key. With the owners we've got and the fact that even after promotion we're still big hitters in our league, it's as ideal as a job gets for him.
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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:17 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:30 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:03 pm
It's part loyalty but more about headroom.

At Barrow, Division Four is a brave new world (except for people who've been matchgoers for five decades), and there are always going to be problems moving that club into higher echelons. At Bolton, the stadium and recent history - not to mention geographical situation - makes a Premier League place far from infeasible, given the right financial backing (and more financial backing has always been on FV's radar if the club reached tier two).

For Evatt, he may have thought he could drag Barrow to another strong season but he was always more likely to achieve longer-term goals with Bolton. As I say he will probably still think that for a while yet, unless and until his continued personal improvement gave him a chance at a big job (Premier club if we're second-tier, or second-tier contender if we're third-tier). And as noted, he will have to weigh up the risks with the benefits.
The headroom is key. With the owners we've got and the fact that even after promotion we're still big hitters in our league, it's as ideal as a job gets for him.
Indeed. And from here there are only two (lets assume worst case scenario of relegation is avoided) things - either we stay in this league for a few years or we are promoted relatively soon (I doubt this year but maybe next?) and in either scenario we'll need a plan for when or if manager and players are approached. If we stay down in a way its easier as there is still something to build here and if we take money for someone going we reinvest and go again.

The worry is the championship which is a league probably more uneven than even the top flight with a glut of clubs having riches to spend from their failure in the top flight that probably could buy our club lock stock and barrel. And that's the point I'd worry about the manager going because its when he might sit and in the cold light of day be concerned about his CV and a relegation fight - and we know that whilst FV have said the championship is the point they'd look for further investment that its easy to say but very very hard to do. Half that division would love ten million to spend but reality is not kind for most.

I almost think mid table championship has to be seen as our likely ceiling unless the financial position changes. If we perform above that then its overperormance like for example Barnsley last season. It can be done but doesn't happen often.

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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by Whitesince63 » Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:18 am

Interesting discussion and yes I do think we’re on the cusp of a new rise and I expect it to continue this season with another promotion. For me there is only one essential piece missing in our team jigsaw and that is up top but I’m entirely confident that IE will resolve it before the window closes. Comparisons with Bruce I think are a bit premature because he benefitted greatly from players already here, whereas IE is basically doing it from scratch. Bruce also had greater financial clout than IE has but I do agree on the togetherness of the squad which I never saw under Parky, Freedman or Megson. I certainly don’t think there’s any chance of IE leaving just yet. For him to be offered a “big” club job, they would have to be in trouble, like a Derby, Leeds or Nottingham Forest and would he really gain from it when he can build something special here? We are after all a “big” club ourselves below Championship level. IE and FV have a goal and I have every confidence they’ll achieve it, starting with promotion again this year and then a new assault on the PL after that. Exciting times ahead I think and especially for our kids who haven’t had the benefit of the years under the likes of Bruce, Toddy and Sam.

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Re: Are we witnessing the start of something very special?

Post by Whitesince63 » Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:19 am

Whitesince63 wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:18 am
Interesting discussion and yes I do think we’re on the cusp of a new rise and I expect it to continue this season with another promotion. For me there is only one essential piece missing in our team jigsaw and that is up top but I’m entirely confident that IE will resolve it before the window closes. Comparisons with Bruce I think are a bit premature because he benefitted greatly from players already here, whereas IE is basically doing it from scratch. Bruce also had greater financial clout than IE has but I do agree on the togetherness of the squad which I never saw under Parky, Freedman or Megson. I certainly don’t think there’s any chance of IE leaving just yet. For him to be offered a “big” club job, they would have to be in trouble, like a Derby, Leeds or Nottingham Forest and would he really gain from it when he can build something special here? We are after all a “big” club ourselves below Premiership level. IE and FV have a goal and I have every confidence they’ll achieve it, starting with promotion again this year and then a new assault on the PL after that. Exciting times ahead I think and especially for our kids who haven’t had the benefit of the years under the likes of Bruce, Toddy and Sam.

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