BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon May 23, 2022 4:50 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 2:51 pm
Spitballing, but as I read the Burnley post-mortems it occurs to me that we might be interested in hiring Jon Pepper, who in five years as Academy Manager oversaw a rise from Category Three to Category One – a journey we may wish to replicate – before leaving them last summer, apparently at the new owners' behest.

Credit to Burnley's academy improvement must go to Sean Dyche, who insisted funds should go towards improving infrastructure, but it was Pepper who oversaw it. Last seen as a technical director in Nigeria, but his Twitter lists his home as Chesterfield – and let's not forget our CEO came from Burnley...

As I say, I'm spitballing – for all I know he could be useless, or hated by Hart/Evatt. Interesting idea, though.

By the way, Burnley's sparkly new owners are said to be considering downgrading to Category Two. I may have said before that fans seeking takeover saviours need to wish carefully.
It’s a good shout. I’d also be asking what their academy produced in terms of output too though. No idea but the ability to move up in status primarily is down to resources - money. Whereas what you produce as a Cat One academy that would be the measure I’d be most interested in. Can you produce an environment that allows the best talent the best chance of progressing and prove it with results.

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by GhostoftheBok » Fri May 27, 2022 3:37 pm

Looks like entirely internal appointments for the youth set up. I knew we were going for the cheaper option, but that's surprising.


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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 27, 2022 3:52 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 3:37 pm
Looks like entirely internal appointments for the youth set up. I knew we were going for the cheaper option, but that's surprising.

I mean it’s not necessarily a bad idea for consistency. Considering Jules’ history it does seem a fairly junior role for him though.

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by officer_dibble » Fri May 27, 2022 4:17 pm

I suppose I was hopeful we might be a bit bolder to get the academy working for us again. All the best an all that but I’m a bit underwhelmed.

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by GhostoftheBok » Fri May 27, 2022 4:37 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 3:52 pm
I mean it’s not necessarily a bad idea for consistency. Considering Jules’ history it does seem a fairly junior role for him though.
My general take is that internal appointments from failed projects just double down on failure.

I don't believe that anyone inside that structure knows how to fix it, but I'll be thrilled to be wrong.

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 27, 2022 4:41 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:37 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 3:52 pm
I mean it’s not necessarily a bad idea for consistency. Considering Jules’ history it does seem a fairly junior role for him though.
My general take is that internal appointments from failed projects just double down on failure.

I don't believe that anyone inside that structure knows how to fix it, but I'll be thrilled to be wrong.
What are we classing as a failure? At what point? I’m not sure we’ve fully got the academy back up and running since the takeover and I’m not convinced we can judge on much before that.

Whilst undoubtedly this feels a cheap route to take I doubt in the grand scheme of things a new academy head from outside would break the bank so I’d say let’s see what happens.

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by nicholaldo » Fri May 27, 2022 5:12 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:17 pm
I suppose I was hopeful we might be a bit bolder to get the academy working for us again. All the best an all that but I’m a bit underwhelmed.

Indeed. Of course, I wish them every success and really hope they do well, but it's very convenient that the three best people for these roles were already employees of the club.

Although - and I stand to be corrected - I believe Craddock has a good reputation locally.

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by The_Gun » Fri May 27, 2022 6:20 pm

I certainly don’t get the impression that the current hierarchy are ones for doing things on the cheap at this stage. They’ve not got many decisions wrong of late, so I’ll back them to have made good choices here.

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 27, 2022 6:52 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 6:20 pm
I certainly don’t get the impression that the current hierarchy are ones for doing things on the cheap at this stage. They’ve not got many decisions wrong of late, so I’ll back them to have made good choices here.
I don’t think they’d be that bothered at skimping on a head of academy salary. I mean we are talking normal person salary here not footballer salary. Difference of say £50 thousand a year is obviously a lot but it’s not going to be the deciding factor imho.

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by GhostoftheBok » Fri May 27, 2022 7:12 pm

Given that at the beginning of the process Evatt talked about searching high and low for the best candidate I am not convinced this was the plan. That plus the fact he sounds remarkably unconvinced in the announcement interview - talking about having to give people a chance, like he was given a chance and sighing a lot. If that was my boss announcing me as head of department I'd not have been too impressed.

Anyway, we will see. Like I say, I will be honest and say I have no faith in the new lot leading a reform of the academy structure. I understand that will be seen as unfair by a lot of people, but there we go. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by nicholaldo » Fri May 27, 2022 8:26 pm

Have you two swapped accounts or something? :mrgreen:

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by Worthy4England » Sat May 28, 2022 9:08 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:41 pm
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:37 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 3:52 pm
I mean it’s not necessarily a bad idea for consistency. Considering Jules’ history it does seem a fairly junior role for him though.
My general take is that internal appointments from failed projects just double down on failure.

I don't believe that anyone inside that structure knows how to fix it, but I'll be thrilled to be wrong.
What are we classing as a failure? At what point? I’m not sure we’ve fully got the academy back up and running since the takeover and I’m not convinced we can judge on much before that.

Whilst undoubtedly this feels a cheap route to take I doubt in the grand scheme of things a new academy head from outside would break the bank so I’d say let’s see what happens.
This is where I'm at. To even begin to know why a previous project had "failed", you'd need to understand what outcomes had been set for it and whether there had been broadly sufficient funds allocated to achieve them, and whether those outcomes matched yours against which you're declaring "failure"

Obviously, if you know someone who's been named in mix personally, have heard their views on what strategy they want to adopt, seen how they operate etc. And don't think they're the right person on that basis, that's a little different., but it might be an indication that they did search far and wide and "the great white hope" didn't want to take it on at the sort of budget we were offering (not just personal salary, but the budget to deliver the project)

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat May 28, 2022 11:37 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 9:08 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:41 pm
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:37 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 3:52 pm
I mean it’s not necessarily a bad idea for consistency. Considering Jules’ history it does seem a fairly junior role for him though.
My general take is that internal appointments from failed projects just double down on failure.

I don't believe that anyone inside that structure knows how to fix it, but I'll be thrilled to be wrong.
What are we classing as a failure? At what point? I’m not sure we’ve fully got the academy back up and running since the takeover and I’m not convinced we can judge on much before that.

Whilst undoubtedly this feels a cheap route to take I doubt in the grand scheme of things a new academy head from outside would break the bank so I’d say let’s see what happens.
This is where I'm at. To even begin to know why a previous project had "failed", you'd need to understand what outcomes had been set for it and whether there had been broadly sufficient funds allocated to achieve them, and whether those outcomes matched yours against which you're declaring "failure"

Obviously, if you know someone who's been named in mix personally, have heard their views on what strategy they want to adopt, seen how they operate etc. And don't think they're the right person on that basis, that's a little different., but it might be an indication that they did search far and wide and "the great white hope" didn't want to take it on at the sort of budget we were offering (not just personal salary, but the budget to deliver the project)
I don’t think it’s that obvious what our academy project is. I don’t get the impression it’s yet seen as the kingpin of the clubs development and we seem to be taking a more suck it and see approach rather than setting out the ambition of moving up the cats as quickly as possible.

It doesn’t feel to me like the aim is to make it a centre piece of FVs strategy. At least not yet. So that might as you say he reflective of what they are trying to do. Might be hard to bring in the better external candidates on a basis of modest initial ambitions as you say.

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon May 30, 2022 12:34 pm

Interesting Athletic (£) piece here on Huddersfield and how they've hugely rejigged their development strategy, including "intentional" downgrading from Category Two to Category Four in order to facilitate a new way of thinking: "The B-team set-up he [Sorba Thomas] joined is very much there to provide a bridge towards the first team for those considered not yet ready."

Doubly interesting perhaps as Chris Markham presumably still has contacts over yonder and will be aware of what they're doing.

https://theathletic.com/3330629/2022/05 ... ier-league

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon May 30, 2022 1:51 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 12:34 pm
Interesting Athletic (£) piece here on Huddersfield and how they've hugely rejigged their development strategy, including "intentional" downgrading from Category Two to Category Four in order to facilitate a new way of thinking: "The B-team set-up he [Sorba Thomas] joined is very much there to provide a bridge towards the first team for those considered not yet ready."

Doubly interesting perhaps as Chris Markham presumably still has contacts over yonder and will be aware of what they're doing.

https://theathletic.com/3330629/2022/05 ... ier-league
And seemingly is more or less what we are doing no?

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon May 30, 2022 2:38 pm

If you don't have a shedload of money then the rejigged academies ratings are not for you.

The whole national system is designed for the benefit of the big clubs and the academy ratings are no different.

It's better than the Elite Development England proposal or whatever they ended up calling it, but it still weights things hugely towards the big boys.

How we set things up and the staff we have is obviously hugely important, but I'd say the biggest challenge will be the sales pitch. Getting the most talented kids isn't happening these days, but getting that second tier of kids in is as hard as its ever been. How you persuade parents who only care about the rich club ratings system to send their children to your academy is the challenge. You can have as good an academy as there is, but if you end up with the bottom of the barrel youngsters it won't matter.

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon May 30, 2022 2:39 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 1:51 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 12:34 pm
Interesting Athletic (£) piece here on Huddersfield and how they've hugely rejigged their development strategy, including "intentional" downgrading from Category Two to Category Four in order to facilitate a new way of thinking: "The B-team set-up he [Sorba Thomas] joined is very much there to provide a bridge towards the first team for those considered not yet ready."

Doubly interesting perhaps as Chris Markham presumably still has contacts over yonder and will be aware of what they're doing.

https://theathletic.com/3330629/2022/05 ... ier-league
And seemingly is more or less what we are doing no?
Sort of. Much of that pudding's proof will be in the eating.

Obviously Huddersfield aren't the first to abandon the academy-category system, which under the EPPP has always felt weighted towards the big clubs, in favour of a different 'B-team' model.

Interesting to hear they don't want to compete with the big local clubs - try our location, lads - so they seem to be focusing less on quantity of players and production line "length" (ie not majoring on say under-14s, the best of whom might just frig off to a bigger club anyway). Instead picking up players who might not be ready *right now* but could be with a little finessing, including psychological support which seems to go way beyond the academy production line.

Perhaps no coinkydink that big clubs send their bright lads there. This season it was Levi Colwill and Tino Anjorin from Chelsea, who'd already sent Trevoh Chalobah a couple of seasons back, same campaign that Arsenal lent them Emile Smith-Rowe.

Not just improving loanees either. Seems to help players make the step up from non-league - like Sorba Thomas, West Ham via Boreham Wood). Certainly seems to have worked with Jon Russell, chucked out of Chelsea after a disappointing loan to Accrington - we've heard that phrase before - but revitalised this season. (By the way, as he's a box-to-box midfielder who happens to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I should hope he's referred to as the Stormin' Mormon.)

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon May 30, 2022 2:41 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 2:38 pm
If you don't have a shedload of money then the rejigged academies ratings are not for you.

The whole national system is designed for the benefit of the big clubs and the academy ratings are no different.

It's better than the Elite Development England proposal or whatever they ended up calling it, but it still weights things hugely towards the big boys.
Ha, cross posts saying same thing.

In case folks are wondering: your "Category" is entirely determined by how much you pay, with set levels of staff, players and expenditure per category. So why bother? The answer has generally been because the higher-rated your category, the more compensation money you get from outgoing kiddy transfers.

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon May 30, 2022 2:56 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 2:41 pm
The answer has generally been because the higher-rated your category, the more compensation money you get from outgoing kiddy transfers.
Which was a stipulation of the Premier League in exchange for key payments.

It's utterly crooked, but that's the game these days.

They will eventually refloat this idea that smaller academies should be forced to give up their best prospects for minimal payments to go into a big England youth system, to then be drafted by the Premier League sides. Not sure how long the leagues will be able to fight that one off.

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Re: BWFC Reserves 2021/2022 - Central League

Post by officer_dibble » Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:54 pm

https://t.co/vT8PhiRRBh

Might be of interest - article about Huddersfield success with a b team.

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