A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by Prufrock » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:00 am

Sometimes, even most of the time. But at 2-2 on Sat, just before we scored he was out wide 1v1 with Burns and managed to lose a 10 yard race with a 5 yard headstart by about 5 yards. They should have scored and gone in 3-2 up

I think it's Ghost's point above and I agree, with the full backs bombing on her often ends up covering in those areas. Champo players I think would give him a pretty torrid time.

And I don't think Evatt will drastically change how we play even if we go up.
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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by sonicthewhite » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:03 am

Mind you Tony Kelly could lose a 50yd race with a 49yd head start and still finish 5mins behind the other bugger!
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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:18 am

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:00 am
Sometimes, even most of the time. But at 2-2 on Sat, just before we scored he was out wide 1v1 with Burns and managed to lose a 10 yard race with a 5 yard headstart by about 5 yards. They should have scored and gone in 3-2 up

I think it's Ghost's point above and I agree, with the full backs bombing on her often ends up covering in those areas. Champo players I think would give him a pretty torrid time.

And I don't think Evatt will drastically change how we play even if we go up.
I mean Campo wasn't going to win any footraces either. Nor Hierro. Evatt tweaked how we played from league 2 to 1 and I'm confident he'd not think we could live in the championship with two number 8's at least not all the time. He's pragmatic rather than dogmatic.

If your answer to the problem is to replace MJ with a DM who can run fast and reads the game as well and can pass the ball as well - then good luck with that.

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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by Prufrock » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:25 am

And Nicky Hunt didn't spend most of his life bombing on down the right.

And yes that is my answer to the problem. I don't think we'll try (or need to in League 1), but I think we might if we go up. MJ is superb. I'm not arguing otherwise, but I am saying I don't agree with your suggestion that he could play in the Prem!
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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:35 am

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:25 am
And Nicky Hunt didn't spend most of his life bombing on down the right.

And yes that is my answer to the problem. I don't think we'll try (or need to in League 1), but I think we might if we go up. MJ is superb. I'm not arguing otherwise, but I am saying I don't agree with your suggestion that he could play in the Prem!
And what I'm saying is this - if MJ who for me is probably our best player week in week out isn't good enough for the championship and would need replacing then there are 9 or 10 at least ahead of him who we'd have to also replace.

I happen to fundamentally disagree. If he can't play at a higher level then certainly that means our midfield 3 would need replacing in their entirety based on what I've seen thus far. As would our full backs and probably Santos too - given I think he's struggled more with the pace of the game in this league than MJ has. And that's just for starters.

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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by Prufrock » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:58 am

Two things:

1) I'm not saying he couldn't play in the Champo. The bit I took slight issue with was the "easily" and "hold his own even higher". I'm not convinced he could go it week in week out in the Champo, but I'm not saying he definitely couldn't. Do think the Prem would be a step too far though.

2) I'm not sure it follows that your best players at one level would necessarily be your best the next up. Someone like Sheehan for example I think would adapt really well. Someone like Doyle not so much. Additionally the job MJ does is *so* important to us. Even if he's your best player, an upgrade there is probably worth more than an upgrade at say centre back (not that they're not important, they are, but MJ's role to me at the moment feels like the whole thing turns on it).
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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:05 pm

sonicthewhite wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:03 am
Mind you Tony Kelly could lose a 50yd race with a 49yd head start and still finish 5mins behind the other bugger!
Perhaps some of our older readers can help us out, but I swear I saw - at Burnden, attacking the Lever End one afternoon - us score from a counter-attack featuring Kelly and Philliskirk, to amazement and amusement from one and all.

Must have been 91/92 (Zico joined summer 91) or early 92/93 (Tony was quickly sold by Bruce). Given the assumption that Kelly assisted Philliskirk, the options are:
• Huddersfield, 17 Aug 91 (1-1) - but as it was Kelly's debut, I doubt we'd yet have clocked his lack of pace
• West Brom, 7 Sep 91 (3-0)
• Darlo, 1 Jan 92 (2-0)
• Reading, 4 Jan 92 (2-0, FA Cup) - last game of the pre-Andy Walker era
• Blackpool, 1 Sep 92 (3-0) - Tony's last BW goal at Burnden
or
• I've lost my mind

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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by sonicthewhite » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:20 pm

I remember that game. I think someone had shouted the pies were nearly sold out across the road and Zico heard em :lol:
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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:21 pm

sonicthewhite wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:20 pm
I remember that game. I think someone had shouted the pies were nearly sold out across the road and Zico heard em :lol:
:lol:

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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by The_Gun » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:10 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:58 am
Two things:

1) I'm not saying he couldn't play in the Champo. The bit I took slight issue with was the "easily" and "hold his own even higher". I'm not convinced he could go it week in week out in the Champo, but I'm not saying he definitely couldn't. Do think the Prem would be a step too far though.

2) I'm not sure it follows that your best players at one level would necessarily be your best the next up. Someone like Sheehan for example I think would adapt really well. Someone like Doyle not so much. Additionally the job MJ does is *so* important to us. Even if he's your best player, an upgrade there is probably worth more than an upgrade at say centre back (not that they're not important, they are, but MJ's role to me at the moment feels like the whole thing turns on it).
The reality is that if were to get promoted this season we would have done so with largely the same squad we had in League Two. It would be pretty surprising if more than a couple of them were able to hold their own in the second tier, and right now the only player I'd be confident could excel up there would be Dapo.

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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:14 pm

Must confess, I find it more than a bit off-putting the way various sources express their "shock and awe" at mighty Ipswich being "beaten, humbled or embarrassed by lowly Bolton Wanderers. The Manchester Evening News, Anglian news reports and even the staggering statement from Ipswich manager "Ipswich Town boss Paul Cook says his side’s 5-2 defeat against Wanderers was “one of the toughest days” of his managerial career."... all as if Ipswich, who haven't won a game yet this season, should automatically walk all over Bolton, a team that fought their way from financial hell to gain promotion and currently sit third in this league, having lost (unluckily) just once.

May be me just being touchy and over-reacting, but....
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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:21 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:14 pm
Must confess, I find it more than a bit off-putting the way various sources express their "shock and awe" at mighty Ipswich being "beaten, humbled or embarrassed by lowly Bolton Wanderers. The Manchester Evening News, Anglian news reports and even the staggering statement from Ipswich manager "Ipswich Town boss Paul Cook says his side’s 5-2 defeat against Wanderers was “one of the toughest days” of his managerial career."... all as if Ipswich, who haven't won a game yet this season, should automatically walk all over Bolton, a team that fought their way from financial hell to gain promotion and currently sit third in this league, having lost (unluckily) just once.

May be me just being touchy and over-reacting, but....
Don't think there is anything wrong with what Cook says. But it did make me laugh seeing Ipswich fans who'd watched our game on Monday predict we had nothing in attack and were wobbly at the back and they'd do us easy 4-0. Just shows the stupidity of belief.

We have a very good side going through a special period. We're not going to win every week and I feel league one is one of those leagues where we beat Ipswich 5-2 away, Rotherham lose 2-4 at home to Fleetwood yet next week a physical Rotherham side rock up and turn us over 3-1. Its just that sort of a league.

But as a Bolton fan I don't think we need fear anyone in this league at all. Some teams are better than others but I doubt many have our spirit or very well defined way of playing and understanding of that. We all know we're not perfect but its league one. And I go back to what Parky said on joining us 'in this league every game is its own battle and own challenge and you are tested in different ways every week'. I don't think any team should sit in league one and think they've cracked it.

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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by The_Gun » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:27 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:21 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:14 pm
Must confess, I find it more than a bit off-putting the way various sources express their "shock and awe" at mighty Ipswich being "beaten, humbled or embarrassed by lowly Bolton Wanderers. The Manchester Evening News, Anglian news reports and even the staggering statement from Ipswich manager "Ipswich Town boss Paul Cook says his side’s 5-2 defeat against Wanderers was “one of the toughest days” of his managerial career."... all as if Ipswich, who haven't won a game yet this season, should automatically walk all over Bolton, a team that fought their way from financial hell to gain promotion and currently sit third in this league, having lost (unluckily) just once.

May be me just being touchy and over-reacting, but....
Don't think there is anything wrong with what Cook says. But it did make me laugh seeing Ipswich fans who'd watched our game on Monday predict we had nothing in attack and were wobbly at the back and they'd do us easy 4-0. Just shows the stupidity of belief.

We have a very good side going through a special period. We're not going to win every week and I feel league one is one of those leagues where we beat Ipswich 5-2 away, Rotherham lose 2-4 at home to Fleetwood yet next week a physical Rotherham side rock up and turn us over 3-1. Its just that sort of a league.

But as a Bolton fan I don't think we need fear anyone in this league at all. Some teams are better than others but I doubt many have our spirit or very well defined way of playing and understanding of that. We all know we're not perfect but its league one. And I go back to what Parky said on joining us 'in this league every game is its own battle and own challenge and you are tested in different ways every week'. I don't think any team should sit in league one and think they've cracked it.
I think there's certainly a lot to be said for this group having been together for a good amount of time now. A lot of the other clubs had significantly higher player turnover this summer, so are likely still going through bedding in phases (Ipswich definitely). My guess would be that some of those sides will improve significantly as the season wears on, much like we did in League Two.

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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:42 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:27 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:21 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:14 pm
Must confess, I find it more than a bit off-putting the way various sources express their "shock and awe" at mighty Ipswich being "beaten, humbled or embarrassed by lowly Bolton Wanderers. The Manchester Evening News, Anglian news reports and even the staggering statement from Ipswich manager "Ipswich Town boss Paul Cook says his side’s 5-2 defeat against Wanderers was “one of the toughest days” of his managerial career."... all as if Ipswich, who haven't won a game yet this season, should automatically walk all over Bolton, a team that fought their way from financial hell to gain promotion and currently sit third in this league, having lost (unluckily) just once.

May be me just being touchy and over-reacting, but....
Don't think there is anything wrong with what Cook says. But it did make me laugh seeing Ipswich fans who'd watched our game on Monday predict we had nothing in attack and were wobbly at the back and they'd do us easy 4-0. Just shows the stupidity of belief.

We have a very good side going through a special period. We're not going to win every week and I feel league one is one of those leagues where we beat Ipswich 5-2 away, Rotherham lose 2-4 at home to Fleetwood yet next week a physical Rotherham side rock up and turn us over 3-1. Its just that sort of a league.

But as a Bolton fan I don't think we need fear anyone in this league at all. Some teams are better than others but I doubt many have our spirit or very well defined way of playing and understanding of that. We all know we're not perfect but its league one. And I go back to what Parky said on joining us 'in this league every game is its own battle and own challenge and you are tested in different ways every week'. I don't think any team should sit in league one and think they've cracked it.
I think there's certainly a lot to be said for this group having been together for a good amount of time now. A lot of the other clubs had significantly higher player turnover this summer, so are likely still going through bedding in phases (Ipswich definitely). My guess would be that some of those sides will improve significantly as the season wears on, much like we did in League Two.
Yeah no doubt. Arguably one of our advantages last season was we sunk to almost the bottom. Certainly the lowest point in the club's history. And you can sort of say that from there we were only likely to rise. In fairness as much as I think everyone learned from it, FV learned very quickly with TP going and Markham coming in and the recruitment and operation of the club improved hugely. I suspect that ultimately as newbies to it FV were going to take time to adjust. And the fact they could do so quickly is hugely to their credit and to our advantage. Because you can look around the football league to see examples where that isn't the case and crucial time is lost. Forest a good current example. But there are loads.

We lost nothing in the end time wise though no doubt the Hill/Phoenix and Phoenix/Evatt legacy cost us money.

But at least a season wasn't surrendered.

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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by irie Cee Bee » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:41 pm

The thing is that when we go away from home, the opposition will play more attacking. We just love that don't we. At home we have a different problem when teams "lock shop" and counter at pace. I don't think we have a good solution for this scenario just yet. Now that our Manager has told the other managers this, which they would have seen for themselves, they will be less attacking at their yard now. Will we have a solution for this? Lets not set our expectations too high to score 3 every game. I expect a real struggle now as teams wise up and learn how to play against us.

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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:12 pm

irie Cee Bee wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:41 pm
The thing is that when we go away from home, the opposition will play more attacking. We just love that don't we. At home we have a different problem when teams "lock shop" and counter at pace. I don't think we have a good solution for this scenario just yet. Now that our Manager has told the other managers this, which they would have seen for themselves, they will be less attacking at their yard now. Will we have a solution for this? Lets not set our expectations too high to score 3 every game. I expect a real struggle now as teams wise up and learn how to play against us.
Sitting back off the ball and conceding possession is what most teams will try and do against better teams. But I don't think you can say we don't have a solution. We broke Burton down pretty well it just wasn't to be.

If every team decides that we are that good they have to surrender the ball and sit in then sure - there is a challenge in breaking them down but equally we'll concede fewer goals.

As you say the challenge might be those teams that have a lot of pace on the break and sit back - Burton did not have much threat at all on the break and seemed to just be long throw merchants. But a side that can combine 10 behind the ball with effective breaks and get out enough times agianst us - that could be a challenge to how we set up right now. And might need a tweak.

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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by boltonboris » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:37 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:48 am
Prufrock wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:02 am
Honestly, I think he's absolutely fantastic at this level, but I'm not sure how much higher he could go, at least for a team as open as us. That's purely pace, which isn't his fault, pretty much everything else is there. And I'd love to find out for sure!
In his position pace is in the mind. Its about reading the game. And for teams at a higher level you simply couldn't play this open in midfield as obviously the higher you go the more you get punished.
I love MJ Williams - I think he's amongst the players we'd miss the most when he's not in the team for whatever reason - However, like you say the higher you go up, the more is demanded. What I disagree with is your point about reading the game being the most important thing.

Obviously, it's vital, but if you look up the divisions, the players who excel in this position (especially the ones who are 'on their own' back there) you will see physicality is paramount.

Take Chelsea's trio of Makelele, Essien & Kante - All fantastic players and the things they have in common, are that their main attributes were their physicality (low centre of gravity, aggressive, strong and exceptionally quick). The evolution of these players is there to see chronogically too

Makelele - Proper destroyer. Could barely kick a ball straight, but nothing got past him and he covered the ground so quickly to cover, recover and tackle

Essien - Same as above, but had a wonderful strike on him and was a huge threat from the edge of the box for seconds etc

Kante - Same as above, but can do the whole step-over, dropped shoulder, ball carrying and has a brilliant passing range to go with his defensive quality

Williams is a good reader of the game, can get on the ball and pass it, he's aggressive but does lack the physicality to play higher up the divisions in my opinion against higher calibre opposition

But for now, he's perfect
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Re: A Swich of the Ips and he's gone. V Ipswich away Sat 11-09-21, 3-0' clock

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:37 pm

boltonboris wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:37 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:48 am
Prufrock wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:02 am
Honestly, I think he's absolutely fantastic at this level, but I'm not sure how much higher he could go, at least for a team as open as us. That's purely pace, which isn't his fault, pretty much everything else is there. And I'd love to find out for sure!
In his position pace is in the mind. Its about reading the game. And for teams at a higher level you simply couldn't play this open in midfield as obviously the higher you go the more you get punished.
I love MJ Williams - I think he's amongst the players we'd miss the most when he's not in the team for whatever reason - However, like you say the higher you go up, the more is demanded. What I disagree with is your point about reading the game being the most important thing.

Obviously, it's vital, but if you look up the divisions, the players who excel in this position (especially the ones who are 'on their own' back there) you will see physicality is paramount.

Take Chelsea's trio of Makelele, Essien & Kante - All fantastic players and the things they have in common, are that their main attributes were their physicality (low centre of gravity, aggressive, strong and exceptionally quick). The evolution of these players is there to see chronogically too

Makelele - Proper destroyer. Could barely kick a ball straight, but nothing got past him and he covered the ground so quickly to cover, recover and tackle

Essien - Same as above, but had a wonderful strike on him and was a huge threat from the edge of the box for seconds etc

Kante - Same as above, but can do the whole step-over, dropped shoulder, ball carrying and has a brilliant passing range to go with his defensive quality

Williams is a good reader of the game, can get on the ball and pass it, he's aggressive but does lack the physicality to play higher up the divisions in my opinion against higher calibre opposition

But for now, he's perfect
Not sure what you are defining as phyicality here - I'd say Williams is physical and strong. But perhaps you mean ability to cover a lot of ground quickly?

I suppose I'd look at Campo, Hierro, Warhurst - who all played that role for us and all were very good readers and passers of it but none would win a footrace or be particularly 'physical'.

I'd agree on Kante - he's the best midfield player in the world IMHO and that's because he reads the game so well and combines that with an ability to cover ground.

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