You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:39 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:34 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:05 pm
Their first was to my eyes a great goal. Their second…for me we cannot concede that.

2-0 and they sat back and we ran out of ideas.
The defence still needs work. We conceded off a set-piece which was sadly predictable; even if we're far, far better at that than this time last year, it doesn't take a doom-laden mindset to imagine we'd be vulnerable there. It's what Rotherham, and other teams - like Cheltenham, who won 1-0 today with their only effort on target - concentrate on. Rother U than me.

Thank God, we don't. I'd like us to improve there as an attacking threat – it would be a useful addition to the armoury, rather than the solo weapon of an opportunistic mugger - but we are capable of making chances, perhaps more so than almost all teams in this division. We had another 17 efforts on goal today, and another game with 70%+ possession.

What we're not always good at is converting dominance and chances into goals. Any team that has 17 efforts on goal should be scoring. In that xG table from early this week we were second, which implied we were underachieving by being in third. Now, in a tight division, we're down to eighth. If we are underachieving it's because we aren't turning dominance and efforts into goals; seeing you say "we ran out of ideas" is worrying. Four times in the last five proper home games we've drawn blanks. It's turning into a problem.

Again, I'd much rather have that failing than many of the several others we've seen in recent years – from not creating chances down through not dominating games to not having a clue, not having any players to put out and almost not having a club. But it's clear we need to work on chance conversion, or our wonderful football will become a source of frustration.
It’s not so much chance conversion as creating the right final ball. But second half it’s very difficult. Once you let a good side get a two goal lead….we’ve won more points from losing positions than any other side in league one thus far. But we can’t keep doing that. For me a game like today you can’t rely on banging 3 in. You have to keep in tight and work into the game, tire their press. Instead we gifted them a game plan because we conceded two goals. We need to work out how to play a good side and win 1-0. Not all the time but that’s for me the clear gap right now. I don’t see us being able to go toe to toe against a Rotherham and blast them away. But we could have played smarter. It feels like we play in a way where if we score it’s good but if we miss you will get a chance. No side in history has ever been really successful like that. We scored 5 last week but still conceded two sloppy goals. Our midfield for me also struggles to control the game in a more measured way.

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by truewhite15 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:43 pm

Huffed and puffed but couldn't break through. Credit to Rotherham - they're a good side who came to do a job. Not too down - we'll play worse than that and win this season

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:45 pm

Bertie's pretty much nailed it for me ^

That was us at our worst, pretty much all over the park. Defensively weak, too pedestrian and not working the opposition keeper enough in attack.

Doyle, who for me has been superb this season had the kind of game his critics say he frequently has. No threat running at the defence, poor lay offs and his touch deserting him when played in. Dapo and Sarcs poorest games too. Sheehan had a poor 2nd half, Gordon solid enough first half but like a frightened rabbit in the headlights when on the attack.

Fair play to Rotherham the cynical shithouses. They played it exactly right and were worthy winners.
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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:54 pm

I don't disagree with anything DSB or BWFCI says, but I'm really happy with being top half & will be at the end of the season. But being really honest I'd say that to improve to a level to be challenging in league 1 next season we do need better than Jones, Gordon (John is better), Isgrove & Doyle, even possibly Sarc ?

As I said we are at least 3 or 4 better / quality players away from being a serious league 1 promotion attempt, of course we need some more physicality in midfield we can be easily bullied by teams like Rotherham, saying that 70% possession against a good Rotherham team is impressive, but we have to be a lot more clinical going forward, its a growing concern amongst some fans (rightly or wrongly)but I will stick my neck out and will likely get dogs abuse but if we are to seriously improve Doyle isn't good enough or clinical enough to be our lone striker in League 1.

However as I said he'll likely score 10-12 in league one to keep us in this league, which I'm more than ok with, however we won't challenge in League 1 without spending at least some money i.e. Sunderland & Wigan

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:15 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:54 pm
I don't disagree with anything DSB or BWFCI says, but I'm really happy with being top half & will be at the end of the season. But being really honest I'd say that to improve to a level to be challenging in league 1 next season we do need better than Jones, Gordon (John is better), Isgrove & Doyle, even possibly Sarc ?

As I said we are at least 3 or 4 better / quality players away from being a serious league 1 promotion attempt, of course we need some more physicality in midfield we can be easily bullied by teams like Rotherham, saying that 70% possession against a good Rotherham team is impressive, but we have to be a lot more clinical going forward, its a growing concern amongst some fans (rightly or wrongly)but I will stick my neck out and will likely get dogs abuse but if we are to seriously improve Doyle isn't good enough or clinical enough to be our lone striker in League 1.

However as I said he'll likely score 10-12 in league one to keep us in this league, which I'm more than ok with, however we won't challenge in League 1 without spending at least some money i.e. Sunderland & Wigan
Whatever the situation up front we won’t be signing someone with a track record of 20 goals a season in this league so we will have to find a different way. Obviously not having Bakayoko isn’t helping as a second alternative option up there.

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:17 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:36 pm
Also I think the Dapo hype should die down after today. Rotherham did a number on him and completely nullified him. I’d say it was his worst game in a long time but more and more teams will double up and foul him. He got too frustrated in my eyes.
Their way of dealing with Dapo - take it in turns to bring him down and share out the bookings - was absolutely atrocious.

I wouldn't say he had a bad game, I'd say he was fouled out of it.
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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:28 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:17 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:36 pm
Also I think the Dapo hype should die down after today. Rotherham did a number on him and completely nullified him. I’d say it was his worst game in a long time but more and more teams will double up and foul him. He got too frustrated in my eyes.
Their way of dealing with Dapo - take it in turns to bring him down and share out the bookings - was absolutely atrocious.

I wouldn't say he had a bad game, I'd say he was fouled out of it.
Yes it was. But he’s always fouled a lot today it got to him. More sides will do that. I guess today the issue was they are well drilled from set pieces and we are not so conceding free kicks was ideal for them.

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:40 pm

Re Dapo: I think that all the adulation he received this week affected him as much as the Rotherham defenders.

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by LeverEnd » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:43 pm

Doyle is a decent player but alone up front like that he's a nuisance rather than a real threat. I think Evatt's strop about people clamouring for another striker was him frustratedly trying to convince himself.
I think all our limitations have been laid bare today. Unfortunately I think we're going to struggle at home all season because it must now be obvious what teams need to do. The only way to overcome that is to have genuine goal threats, and we have Dapo and that's it really. Like I said the bench is woeful. I don't see Kachunga doing anything. Neither one thing nor the other. Delf was finished a year ago.
I think we'll be ok in mid table , keep strengthening.
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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:46 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:43 pm
Doyle is a decent player but alone up front like that he's a nuisance rather than a real threat. I think Evatt's strop about people clamouring for another striker was him frustratedly trying to convince himself.
I think all our limitations have been laid bare today. Unfortunately I think we're going to struggle at home all season because it must now be obvious what teams need to do. The only way to overcome that is to have genuine goal threats, and we have Dapo and that's it really. Like I said the bench is woeful. I don't see Kachunga doing anything. Neither one thing nor the other. Delf was finished a year ago.
I think we'll be ok in mid table , keep strengthening.
Brought my mate over from Wakefield. His highlight of the day was a stop off in Farnworth for a pint at the he legendary Phoenix club at St Greg's. :D
Doyle needed better supply. But I agree generally I think. Bakayoko changes it and maybe Ameachi. The weakness we have is our reliance on football. Rotherham scored two from set pieces. We had enough set pieces today and against Burton and didn’t do much with them. You can’t score great goals every week. Sometimes in this league you need to dig out a scrappy 1-0 against a good side by defending better than them and scabbing a goal from a corner. In fact every successful side will do that more than they will play a team off the park. We look incapable of that right now and it’s a weakness.

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by irie Cee Bee » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:51 pm

Teams now identify Dapo as our main (only?) threat. Shut him down and we are not going to score. They double teamed and at times triple teamed him. No to mention the fouls. Even so, he was still our only hope of coming back into the game.

To my eyes, MJ ball watched on the first goal. Their lad was standing alone on the 18 yard box for what seemed to me like ages before getting the ball in space and picking his spot. I thought Doyle did ok apart from missing the sitter. Jones is vastly improved but we need a couple better attacking options to give teams more to think about. Delf and Kachunga not seemingly up to it.

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:55 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:43 pm
Doyle is a decent player but alone up front like that he's a nuisance rather than a real threat. I think Evatt's strop about people clamouring for another striker was him frustratedly trying to convince himself.
I think all our limitations have been laid bare today. Unfortunately I think we're going to struggle at home all season because it must now be obvious what teams need to do. The only way to overcome that is to have genuine goal threats, and we have Dapo and that's it really. Like I said the bench is woeful. I don't see Kachunga doing anything. Neither one thing nor the other. Delf was finished a year ago.
I think we'll be ok in mid table , keep strengthening.
Brought my mate over from Wakefield. His highlight of the day was a stop off in Farnworth for a pint at the he legendary Phoenix club at St Greg's. :D
Decent post LE, I agree about Kachunga he doesn't look like he can influence anything but perhaps he needs game time not just 5 or 10 mins here & there, I would rather have had someone like Dodoo who was a threat & had goals in him. I find your comments about Evatt's strop interesting, I think we all (fans) knew that we needed another / better striker than Doyle to improve us, but as much as I like IE & his arrogance perhaps he needs to watch a few games from high up in the WS upper tier to see how little Doyle influences games.

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:11 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:55 pm
LeverEnd wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:43 pm
Doyle is a decent player but alone up front like that he's a nuisance rather than a real threat. I think Evatt's strop about people clamouring for another striker was him frustratedly trying to convince himself.
I think all our limitations have been laid bare today. Unfortunately I think we're going to struggle at home all season because it must now be obvious what teams need to do. The only way to overcome that is to have genuine goal threats, and we have Dapo and that's it really. Like I said the bench is woeful. I don't see Kachunga doing anything. Neither one thing nor the other. Delf was finished a year ago.
I think we'll be ok in mid table , keep strengthening.
Brought my mate over from Wakefield. His highlight of the day was a stop off in Farnworth for a pint at the he legendary Phoenix club at St Greg's. :D
Decent post LE, I agree about Kachunga he doesn't look like he can influence anything but perhaps he needs game time not just 5 or 10 mins here & there, I would rather have had someone like Dodoo who was a threat & had goals in him. I find your comments about Evatt's strop interesting, I think we all (fans) knew that we needed another / better striker than Doyle to improve us, but as much as I like IE & his arrogance perhaps he needs to watch a few games from high up in the WS upper tier to see how little Doyle influences games.
Evatt has to live in the real world. We have Baka injured. From where was he getting a striker better than Doyle from? It would be different if we spent a few million elsewhere but we have spent a penny and to be honest a Doyle replacement is a premium thing.

We’ve got a lot of strikers or forwards and ultimately I don’t think Evatt would have turned down a 20 goal a season man he just wasn’t going to get one.

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:15 pm

24 corners I make it in last two home games and rarely look like scoring from them. Santos really has to start looking a menace in the opponents box. Set pieces as IE says are a huge part of the game and we are woeful at them. Really needs a lot of work and drilling and a change in attitude of our more physical players. Want to win that first header.

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:23 pm

Maybe whilst Evatt's up there, he could have a peek at the defence too. We're still the second highest scorers in the division at this point and maybe more goals would be good, but when you're leaking 2 per game, you're going to struggle more often than not to bag three points.

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by The_Gun » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:45 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:15 pm
24 corners I make it in last two home games and rarely look like scoring from them. Santos really has to start looking a menace in the opponents box. Set pieces as IE says are a huge part of the game and we are woeful at them. Really needs a lot of work and drilling and a change in attitude of our more physical players. Want to win that first header.
Evatt openly admitted this week that he doesn’t like set pieces and doesn’t work on them much.

I also think what you’re saying about lacking physicality is bullshit. No team needs to play in a certain style, regardless of what division they’re in. Man City could put out a team of 10 stone weaklings and spank Rotherham by however much they wanted. Our problem is not quite having the personnel to consistently execute Evatt’s game plan.

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:51 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:45 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:15 pm
24 corners I make it in last two home games and rarely look like scoring from them. Santos really has to start looking a menace in the opponents box. Set pieces as IE says are a huge part of the game and we are woeful at them. Really needs a lot of work and drilling and a change in attitude of our more physical players. Want to win that first header.
Evatt openly admitted this week that he doesn’t like set pieces and doesn’t work on them much.

I also think what you’re saying about lacking physicality is bullshit. No team needs to play in a certain style, regardless of what division they’re in. Man City could put out a team of 10 stone weaklings and spank Rotherham by however much they wanted. Our problem is not quite having the personnel to consistently execute Evatt’s game plan.
What? No team plays without presence. Or not successfully. Our issue is that to break a team down second half you are struggling from open play. So either you put good delivery in from our wide consistently and load the box with threats or you maximise set pieces. We’ve had 24 corners and not scored from them. Also I’m not criticising how we play. Just that we need to be better from set pieces. Evatt himself says today set pieces are very important. We won’t always open teams in open play.

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:52 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:23 pm
Maybe whilst Evatt's up there, he could have a peek at the defence too. We're still the second highest scorers in the division at this point and maybe more goals would be good, but when you're leaking 2 per game, you're going to struggle more often than not to bag three points.
Yeah that’s where I am. Today if we won it would have been by the odd goal in a tight game. Give them a two goal start and you might as well pack up then.

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:57 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:23 pm
Maybe whilst Evatt's up there, he could have a peek at the defence too. We're still the second highest scorers in the division at this point and maybe more goals would be good, but when you're leaking 2 per game, you're going to struggle more often than not to bag three points.
Worthy I agree 100%, defensively from set pieces / crosses we are absolutely shocking and consistently concede some simply awful goals. As I've said IMO we are million miles away from having a promotion chasing League 1 side, and we never will until FV decide to invest in the playing side, we will never go up with free's & out of contract players - however it will be more than enough to keep us comfortably in League 1.

As in any walk of life you get what you pay for, so for us to challenge at the top end of League 1 this season or next FV will eventually have to dip into their pockets (or the pockets of the main backers)

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Re: You're not from New York City - Bolton v Rotherham (H) - 18-Sep-21

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:01 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:57 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:23 pm
Maybe whilst Evatt's up there, he could have a peek at the defence too. We're still the second highest scorers in the division at this point and maybe more goals would be good, but when you're leaking 2 per game, you're going to struggle more often than not to bag three points.
Worthy I agree 100%, defensively from set pieces / crosses we are absolutely shocking and consistently concede some simply awful goals. As I've said IMO we are million miles away from having a promotion chasing League 1 side, and we never will until FV decide to invest in the playing side, we will never go up with free's & out of contract players - however it will be more than enough to keep us comfortably in League 1.

As in any walk of life you get what you pay for, so for us to challenge at the top end of League 1 this season or next FV will eventually have to dip into their pockets (or the pockets of the main backers)
Dipping into pockets is how we, Derby Wigan etc etc ended up in the situations we were in. I don’t think we need to overspend to compete. From what I’ve seen if we get a bit of luck we are a top 8 side and from there who knows?

But FV won’t be spending for success it will happen over time as we build. And we might need to sell players at the right time to fund new ones. That’s how it goes.

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