Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:09 pm

Always frustrating to play well and lose. Soft goal, missed chances and poor officials are becoming a format we need to break. Hard luck is like coming fourth in the Olympics.
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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:18 pm

Regardless of oppo, that's five blanks in six proper games (plus, weirdly, five in the other). I worried before the season that Doyle was the only player with a track record of scoring in this division, and while I can't decry his workrate it simply isn't happening for him, with one open-play goal (a brilliantly quick header) in 11 proper games.

Not that we have a choice up top – feels like we're now hanging on for the return of a free-transfer striker offloaded by Coventry who's scored 21 in 150 at this level. The only other sub we bring on regularly is a 33-year-old midfielder who seems destined never to score.

When does it become a worry? Not yet, not for me. We're not playing badly, and there's a lot of credit in the bank; I'd currently gauge it as Mild Concern. But it was never great odds that we were going to stop Sunderland scoring - only one team in their 11 games this season has done that. Given their spending and form I'd probably have accepted keeping them to 1, but that's obviously predicated on us doing enough up the other end. That's only Sunderland's second clean sheet in eight league games. We have to start asking questions of the oppo defence – or we'll have to start asking worrying questions of our own attack.

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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:21 pm

I wonder if Ian Evatt regrets telling opposition managers how he likes them to set up against us after Ipswich?

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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:25 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:18 pm
Regardless of oppo, that's five blanks in six proper games (plus, weirdly, five in the other). I worried before the season that Doyle was the only player with a track record of scoring in this division, and while I can't decry his workrate it simply isn't happening for him, with one open-play goal (a brilliantly quick header) in 11 proper games.

Not that we have a choice up top – feels like we're now hanging on for the return of a free-transfer striker offloaded by Coventry who's scored 21 in 150 at this level. The only other sub we bring on regularly is a 33-year-old midfielder who seems destined never to score.

When does it become a worry? Not yet, not for me. We're not playing badly, and there's a lot of credit in the bank; I'd currently gauge it as Mild Concern. But it was never great odds that we were going to stop Sunderland scoring - only one team in their 11 games this season has done that. Given their spending and form I'd probably have accepted keeping them to 1, but that's obviously predicated on us doing enough up the other end. That's only Sunderland's second clean sheet in eight league games. We have to start asking questions of the oppo defence – or we'll have to start asking worrying questions of our own attack.
If getting beat 6-3 at home to Port Vale isn’t time to full blown panic then I’d not say this is even close to mild concern.

Can’t point finger at Doyle entirely rest of team can score and need to. Start of season we did worry about goals and I’d say it’s less concerning now. But against the best sides it’s fine margins and we are not doing the business either end in last two. But Man City have periods like this too. When you look to play like we do sides will sometimes frustrate us and we won’t quite take our chances.

I’d like to see an alternative approach at times but that relies on Baka really doesn’t it?

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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by Prufrock » Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:02 pm

And Amaechi. And a fit Kachunga.

I'm not particularly worried. We're missing three big players at the top end, but it's becoming pretty obvious when the scope for improvement is. I don't mind that. Makes it easier to attack in January.
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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:11 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:02 pm
And Amaechi. And a fit Kachunga.

I'm not particularly worried. We're missing three big players at the top end, but it's becoming pretty obvious when the scope for improvement is. I don't mind that. Makes it easier to attack in January.
Another attacker but I’d say priority is midfield too. Not sure we’ve got enough there. Sheehan has struggled last two for me. Perhaps extra quality in opposition exposing why he was at Newport.

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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:16 pm

I think the world might have turned upside down...

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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:21 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:11 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:02 pm
And Amaechi. And a fit Kachunga.

I'm not particularly worried. We're missing three big players at the top end, but it's becoming pretty obvious when the scope for improvement is. I don't mind that. Makes it easier to attack in January.
Another attacker but I’d say priority is midfield too. Not sure we’ve got enough there. Sheehan has struggled last two for me. Perhaps extra quality in opposition exposing why he was at Newport.
Add Sarcevic to that. There were times today when I'd forgotten he was even playing.
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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:25 pm

At what point will kachunga be fit, I wonder.

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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:03 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:21 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:11 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:02 pm
And Amaechi. And a fit Kachunga.

I'm not particularly worried. We're missing three big players at the top end, but it's becoming pretty obvious when the scope for improvement is. I don't mind that. Makes it easier to attack in January.
Another attacker but I’d say priority is midfield too. Not sure we’ve got enough there. Sheehan has struggled last two for me. Perhaps extra quality in opposition exposing why he was at Newport.
Add Sarcevic to that. There were times today when I'd forgotten he was even playing.
Maybe. I think sarce is a runner and his movement drives the team forward. He was our main threat vs Rotherham. But yeah the balance isn’t right and I feel Sheehan and Sarce are different styles but both want to play in same areas.

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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by LeverEnd » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:50 pm

Gordon has improved. But he's still not very good. John has to be first pick every time.
Lee should be in with Williams. Sheehan or Sarcevic. Definitely not both.
It's looking to me like we need better than Doyle up front. I haven't seen the game so will happily be corrected, but given his limitations physically he has to be a better finisher than he is. He's willing and hard working but just not enough of anything at this level as our main striker. I know we're not going be able to splash the cash for an amazing finisher, so let's hope Bakayoko can add enough with his all round game to make up for his lack of goals and create better chances for others.
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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:16 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:50 pm
Gordon has improved. But he's still not very good. John has to be first pick every time.
Lee should be in with Williams. Sheehan or Sarcevic. Definitely not both.
It's looking to me like we need better than Doyle up front. I haven't seen the game so will happily be corrected, but given his limitations physically he has to be a better finisher than he is. He's willing and hard working but just not enough of anything at this level as our main striker. I know we're not going be able to splash the cash for an amazing finisher, so let's hope Bakayoko can add enough with his all round game to make up for his lack of goals and create better chances for others.
I think Doyle has played well this season. I also think the goals will come for him. But having Bakayoko back will help. If Kachunga can hit form this will also help. We need to find goals throughout the side. Because even if Doyle bags 15-20 we need many others getting towards double figures. There is no reason Santos shouldn’t be getting close to that with his size and physique from set plays. As a team the more that score goals the better and I think too much focus goes on a striker. Man City haven’t had one for years and not done them much harm.

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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by LeverEnd » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:20 pm

Doyle is the embodiment of everything that's right and wrong with the team for me.
Top bloke, plays well, works hard, very likeable. But is lacking in the really important stuff.
He was great last year and I like him a lot, but to be promotion contenders next year he shouldn't be starting in my opinion. I see him as the Shaun Miller of the next 18 months really.
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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:35 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:20 pm
Doyle is the embodiment of everything that's right and wrong with the team for me.
Top bloke, plays well, works hard, very likeable. But is lacking in the really important stuff.
He was great last year and I like him a lot, but to be promotion contenders next year he shouldn't be starting in my opinion. I see him as the Shaun Miller of the next 18 months really.
Spot on.

At the moment he's taking an extra touch when he should shoot and shooting when he should take an extra touch!

Decent effort overall against tough opponents yet despite the possession and chances, personally i never felt like we were going to score.
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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by irie Cee Bee » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:06 pm

Doyle is playing well. He is a threat and not the problem. The real problem if I can refer to it as such, is Sheehan and Sarc playing together. The balance just doesn't seem right. They both seem to be playing as # 8s and not impacting the game as they should. One need to play more box to box with their starting position playing with MJ. They are playing on top of Doyle who seems to have to drop deeper for the ball being squeezed for space by defenders who have dropped off to cope with Sheehan and Sarc playing high. This can be fixed with Lee playing for one of them. I saw good signs today that Kachunga is getting close to full fitness. I look forward to him making more of an impact than he has to date.

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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:23 pm

I like Doyle too. He works his socks off and brings others in but he had 3 good chances today plus another 3 half chances and took none of them. It is a problem right now but hopefully he, and us, will start to get the rewards his approach deserves.

Sarc and Sheehan were both poor by their usual standards. I'm not sure if its a balance thing but I'd be tempted to have Lee in for Sheehan when we're away from home.
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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:46 pm

Putting Lee in for Sheehan (or Sarce) makes sense to me for some of the harder games - even if it arguably reduces our attacking options.

Trouble is, I wonder whether the gaffer has slightly painted himself into a corner with all the “we’ll never play for a draw” no-surrender death-or-glory stuff. But what might feel like a minor climbdown (reverting when need be from the “two number 8s” to giving MJ a mate) would IMO be tactical wisdom. I fear we are becoming a wee bit too predictable to play against - besides the non-negotiable attractive style, the XI hasn’t changed an awful lot - and unlike last season’s momentum it’s looking a bit more like inertia.

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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:44 am

I'll just leave this here. Seven yellow shirts back plus Dixon who did feck-knows-what by simply dropping down onto his left knee as the ball came in from his right.

Two consecutive games now in which we've conceded goals to an unmarked player at the back post.


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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:23 am

It's not Doyle's fault he's the only option, he's doing his best and I'm loath to be critical of him. Kachunga has been disappointing so far. Given the injuries to the other two we could've done with him providing a viable alternative to Doyle, but when I've seen him he looks like a kid being brought on for a debut. Keen and energetic, but not quite sure what to do. Irie Cee Bee says above he looked a bit better yesterday, let's hope it comes together for him. He hasn't played well for anyone for a good few years now though, and that since a serious injury. Some players never get it back.
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Re: Malice in Sunderland. Sunderland vs Bolton (A) 25th Sept 21

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:05 am

LeverEnd wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:20 pm
Doyle is the embodiment of everything that's right and wrong with the team for me.
Top bloke, plays well, works hard, very likeable. But is lacking in the really important stuff.
He was great last year and I like him a lot, but to be promotion contenders next year he shouldn't be starting in my opinion. I see him as the Shaun Miller of the next 18 months really.
Good post, I agree 100% - Doyle is in the team to score goals, his work rate is impressive but he needs to score goals - how many has he scored from open play this season ? - he missed quite a few sitters in League 2 last season, but he can't keep missing 3 or 4 relatively easy chances game after game as its costing us big time.

Evatt has done a lot right since he came to the club and the football is good to watch, but not getting a goal scorer in the summer was a big mistake IMO and its costing us (and Kachunga isn't the answer). There is no point having lots of possession if we can't or don't score when we are on top & we keep conceding very soft goals game after game.

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