Plymouth match

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Mar » Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:27 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:50 am
Part of the defending problem is mentality. I've said it before but you can't have a good defence without people who love defending and are desperate to keep clean sheets. And I don't think we've got one of those let alone 4. Beevers and Wheater couldn't pass but they defended. That's what's needed now. Not shrinking violets.
Maybe we gloss over some of the performances that were lacking when looking at Beevers and Wheater.

------
When we got promoted in 2016/17. We finished with the following results:
P10 W6 D2 L2 F14 A7 (6 clean sheets)

Upon promotion that changed to:
P10 W0 D2 L8 F4 A21 (1 clean sheet)

-----
Last season when we got promoted we finished with the following results:
P10 W6 D1 L3 F12 A7 (5 clean sheets)

Upon promotion that changed to:
P10 W4 D3 L3 F19 A14 (2 clean sheets)



Now we all know what a crap shoot the 2017/18 season was, and although there are differing circumstances the fact remains that players good enough for last season will still find a league above more of a challenge. Wheater and Beevers struggled upon promotion, so it's hardly surprising that our current set of defenders have struggled.

We have been doing well. Perhaps better than other teams' expectations of us, but not as well as our expectations of ourselves. We can do better and i'm sure we will end up doing better in due course. We've got a good set of players, lets keep the faith.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by bw@bw » Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:45 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:09 pm

Hindsight is 20/20 and whatnot, but we should really have seen this coming.
Before the Sheff Wed match I was convinced that we would be getting a 4-0 drubbing

I was almost relieved when we only lost 1-0
What goes around may still come around

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:02 pm

Mar wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:27 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:50 am
Part of the defending problem is mentality. I've said it before but you can't have a good defence without people who love defending and are desperate to keep clean sheets. And I don't think we've got one of those let alone 4. Beevers and Wheater couldn't pass but they defended. That's what's needed now. Not shrinking violets.
Maybe we gloss over some of the performances that were lacking when looking at Beevers and Wheater.

------
When we got promoted in 2016/17. We finished with the following results:
P10 W6 D2 L2 F14 A7 (6 clean sheets)

Upon promotion that changed to:
P10 W0 D2 L8 F4 A21 (1 clean sheet)

-----
Last season when we got promoted we finished with the following results:
P10 W6 D1 L3 F12 A7 (5 clean sheets)

Upon promotion that changed to:
P10 W4 D3 L3 F19 A14 (2 clean sheets)



Now we all know what a crap shoot the 2017/18 season was, and although there are differing circumstances the fact remains that players good enough for last season will still find a league above more of a challenge. Wheater and Beevers struggled upon promotion, so it's hardly surprising that our current set of defenders have struggled.

We have been doing well. Perhaps better than other teams' expectations of us, but not as well as our expectations of ourselves. We can do better and i'm sure we will end up doing better in due course. We've got a good set of players, lets keep the faith.
No idea why you are comparing 10 games or the next season. That season in league one we conceded 36 goals. And scored 68. As it stands we are on to score 65 as an average but concede 75.

However you cut it the back four is failing. Big time. If the are good players then start defending like they mean it.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by brommers95 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:31 pm

I won’t dwell on last night - we can all agree it was an absolute shocker.

It’s interesting to go back to the similarities between Argyle and Wanderers that DSB picked up on earlier in this thread - two teams with inexperienced managers with possession-based playing styles and both clubs having had serious financial difficulties in their recent pasts. I think there’re probably similarities in budget as well.

Promoted from L2 in 19/20, Argyle struggled for consistency last season, finishing in the bottom half with the second worst defence in the division having conceded 80 goals. (On current form, you wouldn’t bet against us putting up a similar number :? ) However, it’s interesting how Argyle have pushed on from mediocrity last season with some really smart defensive recruitment this summer which has provided a solid base for their more established attacking players to flourish.

It’s clear that FV won’t be following the Wigan model of splashing £10k per week on the likes of Charlie Wyke - instead they’ll be looking at the Plymouth blueprint.

If we go through their starting XI from last night, it’s demonstrable you don’t need to break the bank to compete in this division. Their first team squad is built on free transfers complemented with a smattering of academy graduates.
8458DD6E-6C4A-4CD7-A50B-1ED7B0E295F5.jpeg
8458DD6E-6C4A-4CD7-A50B-1ED7B0E295F5.jpeg (262.07 KiB) Viewed 1929 times
GK - Michael Cooper - 22 year old academy graduate

RCB - James Wilson - 32 year old signed this summer after being released by Ipswich

CB - Dan Scarr - 26 year old signed this summer after being deemed not good enough by Walsall

LCB - Brendan Galloway - 25 year old released by Luton this summer

RWB - Joe Edwards - 30 year old signed in 2019 after being released by Walsall

LWB - Connor Grant - 26 year old signed in 2018 after being released by Everton

CM - Ryan Broom - 25 year old on loan from Peterborough

CM - Jordan Houghton - 25 year old signed this summer, released by MK Dons

CM - Panutche Camara - 24 year old signed on a free from Crawley in 2020

ST - Ryan Hardie - Signed on a free from Blackpool in January 2021

ST - Jordan Garrick - 23 year old on loan from Swansea

I’d be surprised if they were in the top eight for wages in this division. They’re also a side that have really embraced the data revolution and it appears to now be reaping rewards for them.

From an interview with their owner Simon Hallett in 2020:

“Argyle have signed a contract with Opta Sports and will work with them closely over data analytics, particularly in relation to player recruitment.
That means potential signings who will fit the club’s football philosophy can be easily identified. Then it will be up to the manager to choose which of the players are recommended, that he signs”

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/sport/ ... nt-3894672

We’re a newly promoted side with a small squad currently nursing injuries to key players. It’s not a massive shock we’ve lost our way a bit, but I’m sure we’ll turn it around. A season of mid-table stability which gives us time to recruit a bit more quality to push on next season would be great in my opinion.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:47 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:35 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:34 am
Yeah - we probably need an xHOW score, just to show that in 9 out of 10 situations, defenders do something completely different to ours. :-)
As computers are built on rationality, our defenders might make them melt down…
Computer says no.... :D
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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Prufrock » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:34 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:02 pm
Mar wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:27 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:50 am
Part of the defending problem is mentality. I've said it before but you can't have a good defence without people who love defending and are desperate to keep clean sheets. And I don't think we've got one of those let alone 4. Beevers and Wheater couldn't pass but they defended. That's what's needed now. Not shrinking violets.
Maybe we gloss over some of the performances that were lacking when looking at Beevers and Wheater.

------
When we got promoted in 2016/17. We finished with the following results:
P10 W6 D2 L2 F14 A7 (6 clean sheets)

Upon promotion that changed to:
P10 W0 D2 L8 F4 A21 (1 clean sheet)

-----
Last season when we got promoted we finished with the following results:
P10 W6 D1 L3 F12 A7 (5 clean sheets)

Upon promotion that changed to:
P10 W4 D3 L3 F19 A14 (2 clean sheets)



Now we all know what a crap shoot the 2017/18 season was, and although there are differing circumstances the fact remains that players good enough for last season will still find a league above more of a challenge. Wheater and Beevers struggled upon promotion, so it's hardly surprising that our current set of defenders have struggled.

We have been doing well. Perhaps better than other teams' expectations of us, but not as well as our expectations of ourselves. We can do better and i'm sure we will end up doing better in due course. We've got a good set of players, lets keep the faith.
No idea why you are comparing 10 games or the next season. That season in league one we conceded 36 goals. And scored 68. As it stands we are on to score 65 as an average but concede 75.

However you cut it the back four is failing. Big time. If the are good players then start defending like they mean it.
The point is going up a league i think. Conceded few last year, but tough this year. Compare Wheavers in the Champo v league 1.

Obviously many factors, but I think the gist is "it's hard going up"
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Re: Plymouth match

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:38 am

That works if your argument is the players aren’t good enough. But if you are saying they are good enough then it makes no sense. I said on promotion the major differences were physicality and speed of play and our back line struggles with both aspects. I’m far from convinced the balance is right. We don’t have an out and out defender. And if the players are good enough then something is seriously wrong with the coaching because we concede the same nothing goals over and over.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:02 am

Cheers, Brommers - enlightening and encouraging stuff.

Interesting Sheehan quote: “It isn’t the ideal start when you concede early… It is all the players’ responsibility. The gaffer went through everything that they were going to do before the game and they did exactly what we’d worked on.”

I’m not 100% sure he’s talking about coaching defensive set pieces, but it certainly doesn’t sound like they were surprised. Even if it’s patterns-of-play stuff, sounds like they knew what was going to happen.

Some of that is on the players, but I still say we are losing control in midfield because the tactics are wrong. Reinvert the triangle, Ian.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:59 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:02 am
Cheers, Brommers - enlightening and encouraging stuff.

Interesting Sheehan quote: “It isn’t the ideal start when you concede early… It is all the players’ responsibility. The gaffer went through everything that they were going to do before the game and they did exactly what we’d worked on.”

I’m not 100% sure he’s talking about coaching defensive set pieces, but it certainly doesn’t sound like they were surprised. Even if it’s patterns-of-play stuff, sounds like they knew what was going to happen.

Some of that is on the players, but I still say we are losing control in midfield because the tactics are wrong. Reinvert the triangle, Ian.
I think he did sit Sheehan in more with MJ when Sarce came on.

I agree re midfield. But you look at Sheff Weds goal, Wigans first two goals (the ones that mattered) and Plymouth's goals - none of them are down to the midfield being overrun. They are basic defensive errors and most of them involve multiple errors. A lack of real desire to do the hard work. The corners for example - you just cannot concede those goals.

I'd say anyone who wonders what the problem is just watch Wigan's second and Mcclean's first. Yes it was a good strike. But watch the backline right before it and during the strike. That's why we are conceding. Defenders a) making errors, b) being too soft and standing off and c) not prepared to put their bodies on the line.

The midfield issue isn't helping and I'd definitely like to see MJ alongside Lee with Sarce in front on Saturday. And in January by god we need another MJ type.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by enrdentw » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:28 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:12 pm
Sixteen hours after leaving Home Park, I’ve arrived home. Night.
If someone flew from London to Perth (Australia) at the same time you left Home Park, they would have made landed just 1hr 20mins after you got home... It would have made for an entertaining episode of Top Gear :D

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by LeverEnd » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:28 am

enrdentw wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:28 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:12 pm
Sixteen hours after leaving Home Park, I’ve arrived home. Night.
If someone flew from London to Perth (Australia) at the same time you left Home Park, they would have made landed just 1hr 20mins after you got home... It would have made for an entertaining episode of Top Gear :D
Providing they skipped the actual football of course. Well, apart from maybe setting the last goal to the Benny Hill theme tune.
...

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:48 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:59 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:02 am
Cheers, Brommers - enlightening and encouraging stuff.

Interesting Sheehan quote: “It isn’t the ideal start when you concede early… It is all the players’ responsibility. The gaffer went through everything that they were going to do before the game and they did exactly what we’d worked on.”

I’m not 100% sure he’s talking about coaching defensive set pieces, but it certainly doesn’t sound like they were surprised. Even if it’s patterns-of-play stuff, sounds like they knew what was going to happen.

Some of that is on the players, but I still say we are losing control in midfield because the tactics are wrong. Reinvert the triangle, Ian.
I think he did sit Sheehan in more with MJ when Sarce came on.

I agree re midfield. But you look at Sheff Weds goal, Wigans first two goals (the ones that mattered) and Plymouth's goals - none of them are down to the midfield being overrun. They are basic defensive errors and most of them involve multiple errors. A lack of real desire to do the hard work. The corners for example - you just cannot concede those goals.

I'd say anyone who wonders what the problem is just watch Wigan's second and Mcclean's first. Yes it was a good strike. But watch the backline right before it and during the strike. That's why we are conceding. Defenders a) making errors, b) being too soft and standing off and c) not prepared to put their bodies on the line.

The midfield issue isn't helping and I'd definitely like to see MJ alongside Lee with Sarce in front on Saturday. And in January by god we need another MJ type.
From watching him off the ball, I think Sheehan was simply dropping deeper trying to find space to pass from. Certainly didn't get the impression we were playing with two 6s and an 8. You can tell when we line up at dead ball situations.

And of course, yes, any formation is only a starting point, and you need application in any situation. I just think, tactically, we're getting torn apart principally because of the space around (the faultless) MJ.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by LeverEnd » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:17 pm

The space around MJ was very evident against wigan. Getting done so simply and obviously is still annoying me now.
...

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Mar » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:41 am

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:34 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:02 pm
Mar wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:27 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:50 am
Part of the defending problem is mentality. I've said it before but you can't have a good defence without people who love defending and are desperate to keep clean sheets. And I don't think we've got one of those let alone 4. Beevers and Wheater couldn't pass but they defended. That's what's needed now. Not shrinking violets.
Maybe we gloss over some of the performances that were lacking when looking at Beevers and Wheater.

------
When we got promoted in 2016/17. We finished with the following results:
P10 W6 D2 L2 F14 A7 (6 clean sheets)

Upon promotion that changed to:
P10 W0 D2 L8 F4 A21 (1 clean sheet)

-----
Last season when we got promoted we finished with the following results:
P10 W6 D1 L3 F12 A7 (5 clean sheets)

Upon promotion that changed to:
P10 W4 D3 L3 F19 A14 (2 clean sheets)



Now we all know what a crap shoot the 2017/18 season was, and although there are differing circumstances the fact remains that players good enough for last season will still find a league above more of a challenge. Wheater and Beevers struggled upon promotion, so it's hardly surprising that our current set of defenders have struggled.

We have been doing well. Perhaps better than other teams' expectations of us, but not as well as our expectations of ourselves. We can do better and i'm sure we will end up doing better in due course. We've got a good set of players, lets keep the faith.
No idea why you are comparing 10 games or the next season. That season in league one we conceded 36 goals. And scored 68. As it stands we are on to score 65 as an average but concede 75.

However you cut it the back four is failing. Big time. If the are good players then start defending like they mean it.
The point is going up a league i think. Conceded few last year, but tough this year. Compare Wheavers in the Champo v league 1.

Obviously many factors, but I think the gist is "it's hard going up"
That was my point. 4 wins in the first 10 games of a new league is a decent return. I suspect Morecambe, Cambridge and Cheltenham would've been happy with that.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:32 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:48 am
I just think, tactically, we're getting torn apart principally because of the space around (the faultless) MJ.
This issue existed last season and we discussed it in the summer. The difference now is we're playing more clinical sides. MJ has zero recovery pace and any time he's on his own against runners the defenders are completely exposed.

This exacerbates issues with Sheehan too. Both he and Williams need a physical player in with them to play at their best. Sheehan had Labadie at Newport to carry his water.

If we invert the triangle we might reduce the space somewhat, but we will still see turnovers due to our style of play and when we do none of our mids are capable of catching runners. The way we play means we cannot just sit mids, they have to be able to make runs and so there will always be space when we give the ball away.

The Gillingham game showed that issue. We looked more solid with Dapo in the middle than we did with Sheehan, purely because Dapo could run a bit.

The real answer would be to hold a higher line, but again we lack the pace at the back to do that - so we are caught betwixt and between. We can't compact the space and we can't cover it.

For me, a genuinely athletic 6/8 would improve both Sheehan and Williams. I think we'll look for a '10' though and keep the weaknesses - with Evatt trusting better passing to be the answer to all ills.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:39 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:32 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:48 am
I just think, tactically, we're getting torn apart principally because of the space around (the faultless) MJ.
This issue existed last season and we discussed it in the summer. The difference now is we're playing more clinical sides. MJ has zero recovery pace and any time he's on his own against runners the defenders are completely exposed.

This exacerbates issues with Sheehan too. Both he and Williams need a physical player in with them to play at their best. Sheehan had Labadie at Newport to carry his water.

If we invert the triangle we might reduce the space somewhat, but we will still see turnovers due to our style of play and when we do none of our mids are capable of catching runners. The way we play means we cannot just sit mids, they have to be able to make runs and so there will always be space when we give the ball away.

The Gillingham game showed that issue. We looked more solid with Dapo in the middle than we did with Sheehan, purely because Dapo could run a bit.

The real answer would be to hold a higher line, but again we lack the pace at the back to do that - so we are caught betwixt and between. We can't compact the space and we can't cover it.

For me, a genuinely athletic 6/8 would improve both Sheehan and Williams. I think we'll look for a '10' though and keep the weaknesses - with Evatt trusting better passing to be the answer to all ills.
Sheehan is a luxury and not all that good a one. There is a reason he’s played most of his career in league two and why last season he played in the holding role for Newport. Nice passer but see little end product and is carried most games.

Lee and Williams are fine but we need another robust midfield player to go with them. One who can do a bit of everything. Dapo might work when we play the number 10 role if we can sign some wide forwards.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:27 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:39 am
Sheehan is a luxury and not all that good a one. There is a reason he’s played most of his career in league two and why last season he played in the holding role for Newport. Nice passer but see little end product and is carried most games.

Lee and Williams are fine but we need another robust midfield player to go with them. One who can do a bit of everything. Dapo might work when we play the number 10 role if we can sign some wide forwards.
I think Sheehan can do alright here, but if not he'll just be Lee's cover.

Dapo is probably our best 10. He's also our best winger. If we move him inside we just weaken our flanks and with Izzy at right back at the minute our options there are even thinner. As you say, if we signed wide players then maybe after Jan - but I'd rather sign an actual 10 and let Dapo keep ripping teams up from wide.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:43 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:39 am
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:32 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:48 am
I just think, tactically, we're getting torn apart principally because of the space around (the faultless) MJ.
This issue existed last season and we discussed it in the summer. The difference now is we're playing more clinical sides. MJ has zero recovery pace and any time he's on his own against runners the defenders are completely exposed.

This exacerbates issues with Sheehan too. Both he and Williams need a physical player in with them to play at their best. Sheehan had Labadie at Newport to carry his water.

If we invert the triangle we might reduce the space somewhat, but we will still see turnovers due to our style of play and when we do none of our mids are capable of catching runners. The way we play means we cannot just sit mids, they have to be able to make runs and so there will always be space when we give the ball away.

The Gillingham game showed that issue. We looked more solid with Dapo in the middle than we did with Sheehan, purely because Dapo could run a bit.

The real answer would be to hold a higher line, but again we lack the pace at the back to do that - so we are caught betwixt and between. We can't compact the space and we can't cover it.

For me, a genuinely athletic 6/8 would improve both Sheehan and Williams. I think we'll look for a '10' though and keep the weaknesses - with Evatt trusting better passing to be the answer to all ills.
Sheehan is a luxury and not all that good a one. There is a reason he’s played most of his career in league two and why last season he played in the holding role for Newport. Nice passer but see little end product and is carried most games.

Lee and Williams are fine but we need another robust midfield player to go with them. One who can do a bit of everything. Dapo might work when we play the number 10 role if we can sign some wide forwards.
And a robust CH please. At the moment, we have RB/LB that both tend to stand off and work at trying to make the cross a poor one. You only need a few to get through each game for them to need dealing with and for all the plaudits Big Ric and Johnston get, they're not the "just deal with it" sort.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:02 pm

Ryan Lowe leaves Plymouth to manage Preston. Interesting.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:58 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:02 pm
Ryan Lowe leaves Plymouth to manage Preston. Interesting.
Good manager. Done well. And that feels like a good appointment for Preston. Ideal potentially.

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