Plymouth match

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:55 am

It won't matter if Amaechi is like Pele, with our defending. Need to sort the other end out first and foremost.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:01 am

Cheers, The Gun (and others). Am currently whizzing up the A303. This truck won’t take us all the way but the next one should. There’s a possibility the trip might take less than 14 hours.

Stood with Prufrock (and Flanners) at the match and it was gallows humour. But it wasn’t pretty. Trying to play good football - perhaps too much so - but undermined by the sort of defensive disorganisation that does indeed bear comparison to Coyle. Perhaps that’s about being behind the goal rather than side-on like iFollow - you can see the yawning gaps in our cover. Switching to 4-2-3-1 to give MJ a some help wouldn’t be a panacea - we’d presumably still be cack at set pieces - but it might lessen the feeling that we could be torn apart with every attack.

As for Amaechi, it’s a lot to ask. We thought we’d improve with Baka back.

Tomorrow marks two months since we beat Oxford. Since then we’ve played 11 first-team games and only scored in three of them. Maybe Amaechi - who probably won’t play for four to six weeks yet - can help with that but as noted, I doubt he’s going to solve our defensive deficiencies. That will take hard work and humility in training - and for my money a switch back to 4231.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:04 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:14 am
Evatt: “It was farcical but what is frustrating from my perspective is that we are still trying to play short on a pitch where the ball isn’t rolling. I can’t think for the life of me how we are not communicating or recognising that. It is down to naivety.”

He’s done plenty wrong but for me that’s on the players and their lack of match intelligence. You shouldn’t need help or content downloading to realise that if the ball don’t roll, you don’t roll it.
Completely agree - I have no idea what the players were doing at that point. I do think it’s fear of breaking the philosophy but by Christ use your heads! Stick it in the air and cause some chaos in the box.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:20 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:55 am
It won't matter if Amaechi is like Pele, with our defending. Need to sort the other end out first and foremost.
This this this.

I wish people would stop banging on about strikers, wingers and forwards. All efforts now and in January have to go towards fixing the back four and defensive midfield. We're absolutely a shambolic mess and I'm not convinced we have a defender who I'd say is league one standard defensively. As in you can expect them to roll their sleeves up and not make a mistake for 90 odd minutes. And that's a problem. For all the football Santos and Johnston play I don't think either are defensively good. Or even acceptable. Santos is ok on the recovery but we end up in trouble far too much. And Johnston is what Wigan fans said. Great on the ball, keen and catches the eye. But I can't shake the feeling he's another Tim Ream - a defender you're unlikely to keep clean sheets with. Then we have the full backs and with John injury prone, Jones out we've got the hapless Brockbank and the slightly less hapless but not all that good Gordon.

In midfield we desperately need another actual midfield player to go alongside MJ - not as a backup but as someone else to fill the central area who has some presence and actually likes a tackle and a header.

I'd say our priority is that. Fixing that. Second half of last season was built on stopping conceding goals. Not on scoring more - we didn't score as many but we stopped letting them in.

That has to be the priority this time. But we don't have an experienced head to bring in at this level as we did with Gilks and Baps to steady the ship. January that has to be priority. And sign people who are bigger, more physical and up for the fight FFS.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:21 am

officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:04 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:14 am
Evatt: “It was farcical but what is frustrating from my perspective is that we are still trying to play short on a pitch where the ball isn’t rolling. I can’t think for the life of me how we are not communicating or recognising that. It is down to naivety.”

He’s done plenty wrong but for me that’s on the players and their lack of match intelligence. You shouldn’t need help or content downloading to realise that if the ball don’t roll, you don’t roll it.
Completely agree - I have no idea what the players were doing at that point. I do think it’s fear of breaking the philosophy but by Christ use your heads! Stick it in the air and cause some chaos in the box.
Aye. It’s not just the pitch, it’s the howling wind we had at our backs in the second half. Over the top, either in behind the wingbacks or to turn round the centre-backs, and as the rain settles it sticks. Even Evatt the alleged ideologue said that’s what we should have done.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:27 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:21 am
officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:04 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:14 am
Evatt: “It was farcical but what is frustrating from my perspective is that we are still trying to play short on a pitch where the ball isn’t rolling. I can’t think for the life of me how we are not communicating or recognising that. It is down to naivety.”

He’s done plenty wrong but for me that’s on the players and their lack of match intelligence. You shouldn’t need help or content downloading to realise that if the ball don’t roll, you don’t roll it.
Completely agree - I have no idea what the players were doing at that point. I do think it’s fear of breaking the philosophy but by Christ use your heads! Stick it in the air and cause some chaos in the box.
Aye. It’s not just the pitch, it’s the howling wind we had at our backs in the second half. Over the top, either in behind the wingbacks or to turn round the centre-backs, and as the rain settles it sticks. Even Evatt the alleged ideologue said that’s what we should have done.
Until we brought Doyle on though we had the laziest most static centre forward I've ever seen so that wasn't an option!

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:35 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:27 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:21 am
officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:04 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:14 am
Evatt: “It was farcical but what is frustrating from my perspective is that we are still trying to play short on a pitch where the ball isn’t rolling. I can’t think for the life of me how we are not communicating or recognising that. It is down to naivety.”

He’s done plenty wrong but for me that’s on the players and their lack of match intelligence. You shouldn’t need help or content downloading to realise that if the ball don’t roll, you don’t roll it.
Completely agree - I have no idea what the players were doing at that point. I do think it’s fear of breaking the philosophy but by Christ use your heads! Stick it in the air and cause some chaos in the box.
Aye. It’s not just the pitch, it’s the howling wind we had at our backs in the second half. Over the top, either in behind the wingbacks or to turn round the centre-backs, and as the rain settles it sticks. Even Evatt the alleged ideologue said that’s what we should have done.
Until we brought Doyle on though we had the laziest most static centre forward I've ever seen so that wasn't an option!
Well, quite. Which is why - while agreeing that sorting the defence is the first priority - I can’t concur with your insistence that we shouldn’t touch the attack.

Eight blanks in 11 games. And if anything we need to be *less* attacking. But let’s extrapolate 8 blanks in 11 games. If that carries on over the remaining 32 fixtures, we only score in nine more games: even if we win those, 27 more points to our existing 18 takes us to 45, probably not enough to survive.

Yes, we would pick up some 0-0s. And I would hope that tightening up - which, again, I agree should be top priority - would help us score more. But I simply can’t get on board with the idea that the top end doesn’t need attention.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by The_Gun » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:39 am

We need to fix both, clearly. The only reason I mention Amaechi is that he's already in the building, and could (hopefully) add some much needed quality to our right hand side. Beyond him we're stuck with what we have until Jan.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Mar » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:42 am

Saw an interesting post yesterday on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/benmcquade_/status/ ... 8025428999

We've played 12/14 of the top 15 (only Accrington and Wycombe remain who are back to back fixtures in December).

Out of the remaining 9 teams we've yet to play 7 of them (Portsmouth, Cheltenham, Morecambe, Gillingham, Fleetwood and Doncaster).


The level of opposition should get easier from here on in.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:43 am

We moved pretty fast last Jan. I just hope all this ‘beat team in the league’ bollocks hasn’t masked our recruitment needs. Markham seems to have done a good job behind the scenes.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:47 am

Mar wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:42 am
Saw an interesting post yesterday on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/benmcquade_/status/ ... 8025428999

We've played 12/14 of the top 15 (only Accrington and Wycombe remain who are back to back fixtures in December).

Out of the remaining 9 teams we've yet to play 7 of them (Portsmouth, Cheltenham, Morecambe, Gillingham, Fleetwood and Doncaster).


The level of opposition should get easier from here on in.
I hope so, but it’s not long since we feared the lesser lights would sit back and thwart us…!

Too knackered to check this but on the way to Plymouth, what now feels like a week ago, Flanners said the only top-half team we’ve beaten is Oxford. Ipswich have snuck in there now and Burton were lucky but it’s indicative. We’re better (hopefully) than the strugglers but no match for the promotion-chasers.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:00 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:35 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:27 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:21 am
officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:04 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:14 am
Evatt: “It was farcical but what is frustrating from my perspective is that we are still trying to play short on a pitch where the ball isn’t rolling. I can’t think for the life of me how we are not communicating or recognising that. It is down to naivety.”

He’s done plenty wrong but for me that’s on the players and their lack of match intelligence. You shouldn’t need help or content downloading to realise that if the ball don’t roll, you don’t roll it.
Completely agree - I have no idea what the players were doing at that point. I do think it’s fear of breaking the philosophy but by Christ use your heads! Stick it in the air and cause some chaos in the box.
Aye. It’s not just the pitch, it’s the howling wind we had at our backs in the second half. Over the top, either in behind the wingbacks or to turn round the centre-backs, and as the rain settles it sticks. Even Evatt the alleged ideologue said that’s what we should have done.
Until we brought Doyle on though we had the laziest most static centre forward I've ever seen so that wasn't an option!
Well, quite. Which is why - while agreeing that sorting the defence is the first priority - I can’t concur with your insistence that we shouldn’t touch the attack.

Eight blanks in 11 games. And if anything we need to be *less* attacking. But let’s extrapolate 8 blanks in 11 games. If that carries on over the remaining 32 fixtures, we only score in nine more games: even if we win those, 27 more points to our existing 18 takes us to 45, probably not enough to survive.

Yes, we would pick up some 0-0s. And I would hope that tightening up - which, again, I agree should be top priority - would help us score more. But I simply can’t get on board with the idea that the top end doesn’t need attention.
For me its about priorities. I suspect we'll need to win lots of scrappy games 1-0 between now and the end of the season as I don't think we're going to be blowing teams away. Which means that first and foremost we need to fix the backline.

In terms of our forwards I think they'd benefit from a more solid base behind them. And a better midfield more than we'd benefit from signing new forwards. But absolutely its an area we can and must improve but NOT until we fix the goals we are conceding as otherwise that's just building on sand. The forward line is also the most difficult to recruit to I suspect. I'm not in any way saying what we've got is good enough its just that its right now imperative that we stop leaking soft goals every single game because if we can't stop that we're going down regardless of the other end of the pitch. And I'd also say its clear that whilst we miss some, the main issue is actually creating chances and our one method of scoring goals - switch to Dapo who cuts in on his right has been blocked off. So we need to re-think.

I think with a solid base behind him and the right supply Doyle is good enough to score the goals to keep us up. The lad is low on confidence but mainly because he gets so little early ball - I suspect last night he'd have been making runs and our team just passing it round as though we're Barca....same thing happens week in week out. Then he gets the ball with his back to goal and its not his game!

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:01 am

We might score more if we didn’t keep going behind 1-0 in the first ten minutes

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:33 am

A N.S.Sherlock, or what I.E. might be saying this morning minus the "f "words.:

Best team in the league? Even if we didn't score in the last two games, we'd have got two points by not losing if our defence could have kept the opposition out. Seven goals against and none for tells the tale. Granted, injuries and suspensions don't help matters, but we've really gone off the boil and any team we play will be realising we are beatable. Nobody will fear us now. Losing 4-0 to Wigan in our own backyard should put things in perspective. Have a look in the mirror lads, you know who you are. Just wait till your father gets home... :shock:

Etc, etc..

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Prufrock » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:58 am

Having slept on it...

I still come back to us being a work in progress and a couple of windows off. That plus a lack of confidence really showed in the first half (or what I saw it it having been stranded in Plymouth with many others due to the worst collective taxi service the world has ever seen. We booked one to come at 6.45, no sign of it at 7.20 and they couldn't tell us when it would arrive. Cheers lads).

As DSB has said, they didn't have to do a lot in the first half. The wing backs stayed wide and the two strikers stayed high. Evatt has said we tried to go 1v1 with their back three, and both full backs were scared to leave their own makeshift centre back colleagues 1v1 so as others have said their 1 wing back was outnumbering our 2. Then they played the conditions, knocked it in behind and ran hard.

And that was...enough. Added to our utter inability to defend set pieces and pathological need to go behind. They're obviously a good side but they didn't (have to) do very much.

And I think that's mainly personnel. We were *soft* in the first half. As almost always I don't think that was a lack of effort, but of ability and confidence.

Dixon - 6, didn't see the first goal, but otherwise I thought did pretty well, safe hands in tricky conditions, made a fabulous stop to his left just before halftime to keep us in it. Most of the chat after the game was whether he'd have got sent off if he'd nailed Hardie for their third. Tough to argue it was a clear goalscoring opportunity from there in those conditions!

Brocky - 4. Not up to it, bless him. Couldn't cope first half. And not good enough on the ball. Did pretty well second half until the rain came down when he was probably the worst for brain-deadedness.

The second most idiotic quick free kick I've ever seen (see below). Monsoon rain, ball won't roll. Got chance to at least make them defend a set piece, and he pops one in to the midfield.

Baptiste - 3. Creaking. Tough conditions but genuinely awful first half, missed everything, always running in behind him. Eek.

Johnston - 5. Interesting that someone else above made the Tim Ream comparison that we were making at half time. The sort of player who stands out in a defence their concedes 3 a game. I think there's a player in there, but he's clearly not good enough to do it all on his own.

Gordon - 2. Laughably bad, literally at one point. Same problems as Brocky first half, tucked in to try to help Johnston leaving their RWB free, but also no actual use in helping his CB. Catastrophically bad defensively, no idea what's behind him. At one point they tried to play a ball in between him and Johnston on the deck to get around the back, they cocked it up and passed it straight to him and he had a mighty swing with his right foot and missed the ball, over it, by about a foot. It hadn't left the ground at any point. It was that bad their player had stopped running assuming that no-one could possibly miss that one.

No idea what to do with the ball either, loads of nothing balls inside, into the wind that they had a field day with. He doesn't even have the right back's excuse. Just f*cking give it Dapo.

Awful, never ever ever a league 1 player.

MJ - 6. Typical. Stood up, did his bit, overran.

Sheehan - 4. This change to two 8s must have been for his benefit but he just adds so little off the ball. It's not lack of effort, he really does try to get back in there but he's not big or quick nor does he really know what he's doing. Always brave on the ball, but felt like it should be a straight fight between him and Sarce to play at 10 (and he'd be comfortably second in that right right now).

Lee - 5. Again, pretty typical sexy Kieron. Looks classy. Works hard. Let down by others.

Isgrove - 4. Awful. He's just not up to it. You can't be a front three player and add nothing but "he tries hard". Weak, and no threat.

Baka -2. Oh whee. 2 generous to be fair. Truly awful. He can't even f*cking head it. So so so far off the pace. No touch, no threat, no presence. Very very bad.

Dapo - 5. Biggest threat going forward (shock) but more petulence. The only one with a brain, mind. Spent the entire splashy period starting wide then pointing frenetically to the pond in behind while doing that sideways stay onside run. Inevitably ignored as we chipped it around the back 4.

Pipped Brocky for the worst free kick in the game/history of football. Stroppy about not getting fouls (having been booked, again, for dissent, he just toed it quickly square to... absolutely no-one.

Subs: Sarc - 6. Huge difference. Should've scored but brought intensity intelligence and threat.

Doyle - 6. See above. Won more headers and made it stick more in 15 mins then Baka did in 75.

Kacha - 5. Big upgrade on Isgrove. Farcical attempt to cross at the end in the conditions, but got into more good positions in 15 than is in 75. I guess haplessly f*cking up chances is better then never getting any.

First XI is good enough to compete with anyone in this league. Plenty in the second XI aren't good enough for the one below.

I don't get the money chat, which seems to ignore the idea of progress. We spent enough this season to attract the likes of Johnston. But you need a few windows of that to make steady progress (assuming you don't have the cash to go all out now).

It'll still be reet. But recruitment vital. Full backs are killing us atm.
Last edited by Prufrock on Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Prufrock » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:00 am

Also, never been that wet in my life. Biblical. Last ten minutes was a farce. Got back to the hotel at midnight and spent an hour using a hairdryer to dry my shoes and jeans (what do you mean, take a change of clothes?).

Managed to melt the glue in my trainers. But at at least one poster in here would no doubt vouch, it could've been worse!
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Re: Plymouth match

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:30 am

Agree with just about everything there Pru apart from I think Gordon was better than Brockbank - not saying much but I'd struggle to give Brockbank a 2....

And I think its harsh on Isgrove who definitely was poor last night but I think he is a good intelligent player who offers a lot BUT he needs a good attacking full back and midfield support as he likes to play nice triangles and passes and moves but is absolutely not a wide do it yourself type.

I think Isgrove is fine and he came back into the side and prompted probably our best spell of the season with his graft and neat football. I would obviously agree that a right sided player who can do more and supply more is very important but I'd not phrase it as harshly as you did and I think he's a good option in our squad.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:31 am

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:00 am
Also, never been that wet in my life. Biblical. Last ten minutes was a farce. Got back to the hotel at midnight and spent an hour using a hairdryer to dry my shoes and jeans (what do you mean, take a change of clothes?).

Managed to melt the glue in my trainers. But at at least one poster in here would no doubt vouch, it could've been worse!
Aye. We parked on top of a hill and it was still flooded.

I did take a change of clothes but, crucially and gormlessly, not footwear. Trainers still five shades darker than when I left home.

Still not even nearly home, BTW. At Fleet services awaiting what should be the final tow-truck.

One of my abiding memories of this trip - and there’ll be plenty - will be Prufrock standing behind me, howling “HOW?!!!” every time a defender did something inexplicable. That, reader, was literally dozens of times.
Last edited by Dave Sutton's barnet on Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:32 am

Can't argue with that summation much, Pru, other than maybe I'd have given MJ an extra point for being surrounded by clueless fcukwits. There's no point trying to work out Gordon in this situation. When we're well on top and he's got the freedom of the city, he looks decidedly average. Last night, he didn't even know how fcuking legs work.

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Re: Plymouth match

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:34 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:31 am
Prufrock wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:00 am
Also, never been that wet in my life. Biblical. Last ten minutes was a farce. Got back to the hotel at midnight and spent an hour using a hairdryer to dry my shoes and jeans (what do you mean, take a change of clothes?).

Managed to melt the glue in my trainers. But at at least one poster in here would no doubt vouch, it could've been worse!
Aye. We parked on top of a hill and it was still flooded.

Still not even nearly home, BTW. At Fleet services awaiting what should be the final tow-truck.

One of my abiding memories of this trip - and there’ll be plenty - will be Prufrock standing behind me, howling “HOW?!!!” every time a defender did something inexplicable. That, reader, was literally dozens of times.
Yeah - we probably need an xHOW score, just to show that in 9 out of 10 situations, defenders do something completely different to ours. :-)

Couple of nice pubs in Fleet! ;-)

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