Plymouth match
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Re: Plymouth match
As computers are built on rationality, our defenders might make them melt down…Worthy4England wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:34 amYeah - we probably need an xHOW score, just to show that in 9 out of 10 situations, defenders do something completely different to ours.
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Re: Plymouth match
Part of the defending problem is mentality. I've said it before but you can't have a good defence without people who love defending and are desperate to keep clean sheets. And I don't think we've got one of those let alone 4. Beevers and Wheater couldn't pass but they defended. That's what's needed now. Not shrinking violets.
Re: Plymouth match
Not sure I agree with this. Last season, as you correctly noted, we built a lot of our success on keeping clean sheets, and we have largely the same back line now. I would suggest our issues are more to do with structure, coaching and the jump in quality we are facing in League One.BWFC_Insane wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:50 amPart of the defending problem is mentality. I've said it before but you can't have a good defence without people who love defending and are desperate to keep clean sheets. And I don't think we've got one of those let alone 4. Beevers and Wheater couldn't pass but they defended. That's what's needed now. Not shrinking violets.
Re: Plymouth match
Brocky was not good last night, in fact he was about the distance from London to Plymouth from good, but Gordon was so far away he was sinking somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic, with only Bakayoko for company who, despite being able to touch the bottom, immediately drowned.
Brocky was pants, but a) he was alongside the hapless Baptiste, b) he sort of closed his man down, and c) at no point completely missed a rolling ball *over the top* something I have never seen before, fell over the ball, or just randomly chucked no look passes into central midfield.
Both he and Baka only saved from 1/10s by the standards set by some of their illustrious predecessors.
Potentially harsh on Isgrove generally but, I'm not in the mood to be generous, and he's played 13 games this season with 0 assists and 0 goals. People keep rightly pointing to the inability to score goals regularly, Lloyd is a huge reason why. I wouldn't mind him playing the role Delf does now, emergency cover, but he's not up to it. Trying hard and a Cruyff turn isn't enough.
Brocky was pants, but a) he was alongside the hapless Baptiste, b) he sort of closed his man down, and c) at no point completely missed a rolling ball *over the top* something I have never seen before, fell over the ball, or just randomly chucked no look passes into central midfield.
Both he and Baka only saved from 1/10s by the standards set by some of their illustrious predecessors.
Potentially harsh on Isgrove generally but, I'm not in the mood to be generous, and he's played 13 games this season with 0 assists and 0 goals. People keep rightly pointing to the inability to score goals regularly, Lloyd is a huge reason why. I wouldn't mind him playing the role Delf does now, emergency cover, but he's not up to it. Trying hard and a Cruyff turn isn't enough.
Last edited by Prufrock on Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plymouth match
The difference is that back line was hopeless until Baptiste and Gilks added the mental toughness and experience to it to bolster it - and to an extent Jones was firing and John was here....The_Gun wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:20 pmNot sure I agree with this. Last season, as you correctly noted, we built a lot of our success on keeping clean sheets, and we have largely the same back line now. I would suggest our issues are more to do with structure, coaching and the jump in quality we are facing in League One.BWFC_Insane wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:50 amPart of the defending problem is mentality. I've said it before but you can't have a good defence without people who love defending and are desperate to keep clean sheets. And I don't think we've got one of those let alone 4. Beevers and Wheater couldn't pass but they defended. That's what's needed now. Not shrinking violets.
You've not got either full back and the experience we added in probably isn't up to it in league one.
Santos needs a leader with him. And I'm not sure we've got that. We need tougher full backs and as you say to fix the midfield structure. But I see a lot of players more interested in trying to play than dealing with danger. Watch Wigan's second goal and tell me that there is a 'we're not conceding today' mentality in that backline. Johnston, Santos, Gordon all were pathetic. Its not a one off either. None of them to me look good enough. Because we need to judge them on their ability to defend. Their ability to keep clean sheets. They're not physical enough, not strong enough, not disciplined enough. The Sheffield Weds goal another prime example. Santos and Johnston all over the shop. And I'd say its more mentality than organisation. On Saturday the only thing that matters is not conceding. I don't care if that means the ball is lumped or we have bodies throwing themselves in front of the ball. But we need to see that desire to not concede. That mentality. And the physicality to be able to deal with teams. If a team have a big ugly 6ft5 striker up there then Johnston has to go and deal with it. Same with Santos. And that's their primary job as centre backs. For me neither have done that so far.
Re: Plymouth match
For some reason I'm reminded of one of the England-India tests from the summer when Ishant Sharma's first ball was a no ball and his match bowling average appeared on the screen as infinity.Worthy4England wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:34 amYeah - we probably need an xHOW score, just to show that in 9 out of 10 situations, defenders do something completely different to ours.Dave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:31 amAye. We parked on top of a hill and it was still flooded.Prufrock wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:00 amAlso, never been that wet in my life. Biblical. Last ten minutes was a farce. Got back to the hotel at midnight and spent an hour using a hairdryer to dry my shoes and jeans (what do you mean, take a change of clothes?).
Managed to melt the glue in my trainers. But at at least one poster in here would no doubt vouch, it could've been worse!
Still not even nearly home, BTW. At Fleet services awaiting what should be the final tow-truck.
One of my abiding memories of this trip - and there’ll be plenty - will be Prufrock standing behind me, howling “HOW?!!!” every time a defender did something inexplicable. That, reader, was literally dozens of times.
Couple of nice pubs in Fleet!
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Re: Plymouth match
I guess I'll defer to you on Gordon last night as it looks different at the game. I don't think he's good btw.Prufrock wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:32 pmBrocky was not good last night, in fact he was about the distance from London to Plymouth from good, but Gordon was so far away he was sinking somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic, with only Bakayoko for company who, despite being able to touch the bottom, immediately drowned.
Brocky was pants, but a) he was alongside the hapless Baptiste, b) he sort of closed his man down, and c) at no point completely missed a rolling ball *over the top* something I have never seen before, fell over the ball, or just randomly chucked no look passes into central midfield.
Both he and Baka only saved from 1/10s by the standards set by some of their illustrious predecessors.
Potentially harsh on Isgrove generally but, I'm not in the mood to be generous, and he's played 13 games this season with 0 assists and 0 goals. People keep rightly pointing to the inability to score goals regularly, Lloyd is a huge reason why. I wouldn't mind him playing the role Delf does not, emergency cover, but he's not up to it. Trying hard and a Cruyff turn isn't enough.
As for Issy I sort of agree but also that he is really the player that provides the platform for the full back to fly forwards and most of our best games have been as a result of that. Whilst I think he's not producing enough I do think he's more that sort of player. Right now Kachunga and Baka are no goes for me so its Isgrove or????
Re: Plymouth match
We can hardly be surprised that the back four we put out last night wasn't good enough to keep out a team who are top of the league.
The consensus on here last season was that Gordon wasn't close to being good enough to play for us in League Two. If it had been suggested that he would be starting for us in the division above, I think results like we've seen in the last couple of games would have been widely predicted.
Brockbank is really an undersized centre back who did an ok job as a reserve right back in League Two last year. Has anyone of us ever thought he'd be up to starting at full back in League One?
Baptiste did exceptionally well for us in the second half of last season, but he's pushing 36 and has barely played this season.
Johnston is an inexperienced 23 year old, who whilst undoubtedly very talented, was made captain last night, and presumably expected to marshal the rest of them.
Hindsight is 20/20 and whatnot, but we should really have seen this coming.
The consensus on here last season was that Gordon wasn't close to being good enough to play for us in League Two. If it had been suggested that he would be starting for us in the division above, I think results like we've seen in the last couple of games would have been widely predicted.
Brockbank is really an undersized centre back who did an ok job as a reserve right back in League Two last year. Has anyone of us ever thought he'd be up to starting at full back in League One?
Baptiste did exceptionally well for us in the second half of last season, but he's pushing 36 and has barely played this season.
Johnston is an inexperienced 23 year old, who whilst undoubtedly very talented, was made captain last night, and presumably expected to marshal the rest of them.
Hindsight is 20/20 and whatnot, but we should really have seen this coming.
Last edited by The_Gun on Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plymouth match
I'm thinking you were watching a different stream, Insano. He didn't look any better on mine!BWFC_Insane wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:35 pmI guess I'll defer to you on Gordon last night as it looks different at the game. I don't think he's good btw.
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Re: Plymouth match
Oh he didn't play well. I just thought he was better than Brockbank. Though its very much tallest dwarf territory. Neither are close to league one standard.Worthy4England wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:13 pmI'm thinking you were watching a different stream, Insano. He didn't look any better on mine!BWFC_Insane wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:35 pmI guess I'll defer to you on Gordon last night as it looks different at the game. I don't think he's good btw.
Re: Plymouth match
Ironically both shapes are due to us attacking.
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Re: Plymouth match
Aye but in the one on the right, we're marking them far better!
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Re: Plymouth match
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Re: Plymouth match
Perhaps I'm becoming accustomed to mediocrity but I didn't think Gordon did too badly last night. From his starts earlier in the season he's grown in confidence and actually used his pace last night to go past 3 of their players. Obviously, as soon as was in a dangerous position he gave the ball away but it marked a huge difference to his earlier nervy performances.
Harry, bless him, is still at that very nervous stage and constantly looking to his team mates to help him out. Unfortunately last night he had the usually excellent Isgrove giving him no support and Baptiste for the short pass, who had enough problems of his own without carrying Harry too.
Lincoln was the last midweek away game I attended. Left the ground full of optimism with the Kerchunga song as an earworm for the next 24 hours.
Last night, I was wet through, no idea where our next goal or points are coming from and I've found myself humming along to 'Bolton get battered everywhere they go'.
Harry, bless him, is still at that very nervous stage and constantly looking to his team mates to help him out. Unfortunately last night he had the usually excellent Isgrove giving him no support and Baptiste for the short pass, who had enough problems of his own without carrying Harry too.
Lincoln was the last midweek away game I attended. Left the ground full of optimism with the Kerchunga song as an earworm for the next 24 hours.
Last night, I was wet through, no idea where our next goal or points are coming from and I've found myself humming along to 'Bolton get battered everywhere they go'.
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Re: Plymouth match
Oh aye, sorry to hear of DSBs (epic!) and Pru's issues. We'd gone for an early tea and beers with the idea of getting a taxi up to the ground. Barmaid told us how bad the taxi situation is in Plymouth, so after the 1st company said they had nothing until gone 8pm, I stopped at the 1 pint and drove up there.
No parking to be had anywhere near the ground at 6.30, which meant finding somewhere on one of the side streets, not easy, and then walking through the downpour to the ground. Same journey afterwards. The apartment we're staying in was littered with wet clothes hanging off every surface. Slightly different to the original plan of a few beers around the Barbican and a leisurely stroll up to the game!
No parking to be had anywhere near the ground at 6.30, which meant finding somewhere on one of the side streets, not easy, and then walking through the downpour to the ground. Same journey afterwards. The apartment we're staying in was littered with wet clothes hanging off every surface. Slightly different to the original plan of a few beers around the Barbican and a leisurely stroll up to the game!
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Re: Plymouth match
How many did we have on last night, btw? I've read both 600 and 700. A right old turnout either way.
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Re: Plymouth match
Bruce Rioja wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:54 pmHow many did we have on last night, btw? I've read both 600 and 700. A right old turnout either way.
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Re: Plymouth match
Cheers, Chap. That's fantastic. Well done to all who went.
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